Hissatsu: Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Stardiver hits like a wet noodle. Nothing about that move feels good when it takes 9 years to get to it when doing the optimized rotation. That said, who cares if kaiten is used a lot? In terms of "action bloat" nothing changes because we're all just going to replace it with shinten. The button APM stays exactly the same.

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Agreed with Stardiver; Agreed with who cares if it is used alot; I'm going to be pedantic (mainly as sarcasm to show how dumb the change is), but Shinten costs 5 more Kenki so it'll only be used 4/5ths of the number of Kaitens used. (Let's be real though, they're CLEARLY also going to lower the amount of Kenki that we generate to make it so that we use Shinten the same amount that we do now).

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Originally Posted by ThivraK

imagine blaming 'hardcore' players for these issues
lol
lmao

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It's been a self-reinforcing feedback loop, and hardcore raiders have been part of that. Though I also think that the game's design--across several facets--was what started everything in that direction.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

My biggest complaint with the jobs in FFXIV, they are almost exclusively fixed rotations, with dancer, bard and blm being outliners. To diversify it a bit they could at least have made it so that not every resource generation had fixed numbers, so instead of 5 it could have been 4-7 or 10 on crit.

Dancer also suffers from being stuck with the same gcd as all other jobs resulting in their core rotation feeling like an absolute bore.

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Except as we have been seeing, the game is constantly *reducing* damage variability. And again I don't think it's totally hardcore raiders fault because the devs seem quite trigger happy when it comes to killing off job skills and entire mechanics like multiclassing, different equippable weapons, elemental weaknesses, TP, healer damage, and now DoT and crits. They have been oversimplifying gleefully. But while some of these changes are definitely in service of casual players, reducing damage variability is pretty much solely to please parsers. For casuals it wouldn't matter because they suck at combat, and for most midcores it's actually a negative because variability *is* the fun.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

But while some of these changes are definitely in service of casual players, reducing damage variability is pretty much solely to please parsers. For casuals it wouldn't matter because they suck at combat, and for most midcores it's actually a negative because variability *is* the fun.

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Reducing damage variability is not to please the parsers, it's so that you're not singling out and gimping certain classes for certain fights. I imagine that parsers would LOVE to put together the perfect "Slashing team" for a boss that is weak to slashing with +slashing buffs and 6 SAMs/NINs and cackle gleefully as they top all of the parses. The problem with that is the _casual_ or _semi-casual_ players that only have MNK or a caster leveled being kept out of that fight because maybe that boss is strong against crushing/magic. It's so that fights are arbitrarily nerfing certain classes because if that happens you'll absolutely see bad players not taking those people because they don't understand that the difference between a good play and a bad player is even more important.

Variability isn't fun when it results in you not getting invited to a group because of the job you play/want to play.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Reducing damage variability is not to please the parsers, it's so that you're not singling out and gimping certain classes for certain fights. I imagine that parsers would LOVE to put together the perfect "Slashing team" for a boss that is weak to slashing with +slashing buffs and 6 SAMs/NINs and cackle gleefully as they top all of the parses. The problem with that is the _casual_ or _semi-casual_ players that only have MNK or a caster leveled being kept out of that fight because maybe that boss is strong against crushing/magic. It's so that fights are arbitrarily nerfing certain classes because if that happens you'll absolutely see bad players not taking those people because they don't understand that the difference between a good play and a bad player is even more important.

Variability isn't fun when it results in you not getting invited to a group because of the job you play/want to play.

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I don't agree with this, because you are kind of blurring the line between the two.

Damage typing was removed yes, to make all jobs "viable" and accessible for casuals/midcores.

Damage *variability*, particularly when it comes to critical hits, buff windows, and rotation bloat, is what has been consistently removed for the sake of parsers.

There is some overlap and the two do affect each other. A lot of changes made for the sake of casuals like removing of elemental/damage typing, TP, etc. do *de facto* affect damage variability even if that is not the primary purpose. But reduction of crits and the homogenization of buff windows is purely in service of hardcore raiders.

Which, in a similar vein, I have been hearing a lot of people whinging for Blood Weapon stacks on DRK along with Delirium and it is something I just don't agree with. I don't want *every* ability on a job to be a stack. I *like* weird buff windows. It's not efficient but it at least keeps gameplay interesting.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. T

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Exactly.

Kenki now becomes the Shinten gauge. This means the gauge has far less point and Shinten is just a mindless filler. Somewhere down the line they'll probably make Senai and Gyoten plain oGCD's to "streamline" it, then eventually remove Kenki entirely and make Shinten a plain 30 sec oGCD.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

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You can apply this to so many things. Maintenance buffs for a start. The 1 step in your 1-2-3 combo is just "tedious filler" to use 2 and 2 is tedious filler to reach 3. Why do RPR's have to press Blood Stalk and Gluttony? Why do NIN always have to press Mudras? Why make DNC's do 3 steps? What's the point of any ability that grants resource or gauge, just make them recharge a little faster. Or a better example is why does Reassemble exist on MCH still or Zoe on SGE.

Kaiten gives the Kenki gauge purpose. If they wanted to get rid of it, they should have added something else to keep the gauge meaningful.

To the person whom I once saw in DF who mentioned that new Summoner is a rewarding and complex job.
The loss of the prefrontal cortex is a serious issue, and should not be something to aim for with the other jobs.

As I saw commets in other places, they don't need to simplify ALL the jobs, I mean, we already have a "easy mode" in a lot of classes, Dancer/Red Mage/White mage and the new Summoner.
Samurai it's not one of the jobs that need to be simplified, the motive for that? It's simple, Samurai is a hard hitting DPS, the one that deal the most personal damage actually, and it would be unfair to not "punish" poor resource management while the Caster counterpart (Black Mage) is still a hard punishing job in hard content.
If you want to drag yourself through the content, that's fine, pick a "easy mode" class. If you don't want to waste time praticing your rotation on a dummy with DPS, then pick Summoner. If you don't like depth in a class or a game, it's fine, pick up a easy class, but there are people that like the challenge, and they need to be reached too. I agree that there's no "easy mode" melee DPS, but that class must NOT be Samurai. I don't even play Samurai, but it's about empathy you know?

TL;DR: If you don't like in-depth classes that requires training, pick a "easy mode" class.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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You can use the same logic for pretty much any and every ability in this game. Remove X because all it does is X. Not a good arguement in any way.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If looking cool is all that mattered, we'd still have Power Slash and Grenado Shot and a bunch of other cool lookin' skills.

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So many great looking abilities left for dead. I loved all of drks finishers except souleater. Why is the ugliest ability the one we have to spam?

I've only played SAM very casually, but busting out a full power burst combo on SAM has always been huge fun, and kaiten is a part of that. It will be missed. SAM really isn't overly complex either, it has a relatively low floor to at least be competent.


If they really want to trim a button, they could make Shoha II a proc that follows Shoha I on the same button.