Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by Migosha

(Sorry for two posts, but that 1000 caracters' limitation is killing me >.<)

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You can go over 1,000 in one post by using the "Edit Post". It's a workaround at best, but efficient enough.

Just post what fits, then add the rest. I type mine all out then just cut/post/edit/paste, when it is needed.

I tested 463 accuracy, did not miss at T5 at all.

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Originally Posted by Migosha

(Sorry for two posts, but that 1000 caracters' limitation is killing me >.<)

A quick look at the list would make me swap Allagan Ring of striking instead of maiming (+5 ACC) and AF gloves instead of Allagan gloves (-15 ACC) for a final -10 ACC. And you can switch back those two items if you want the 482 ACC.
Someone using a script for BiS determination will probably get a lil better result than me. It's a 1.743 score gain in the end with current weights. So roughly a 0.9 DPS gain. No need to say that it won't change the world ;)

So it should be something like :

Allagan Spear
Wyrm's Armet
Wyrm's mail
Wyrm's Gauntlets
Hero's belt of maiming
Wyrm's Breeches
Wyrm's Greaves
Hero's necklace of Slaying
Hero's earrings of slaying
Infernal Flames
Hero's Braclet of Slaying
Allagan ring of striking
Vortex Attacker

Everything in this list is from Myth except 2 rings and a Bracer.

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you got 2 bracelets on

With lower Accuracy Requirement. We can wear more stronger pieces. This discussion is heating up. Can't wait to see the final BIS List.

Could someone with the calculations check the gear sets if Skill Speed is completely ignored in the stat weights / item budget weights?

I'm curious to see what changes, if any, would occur and what skill speed would be given just by default with those different gear choices.

Thanks.

I wonder what the final list is

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Originally Posted by Migosha

In the other topic the person was talking about dragons and snakes from start of the Turn

If it's only for trashes it's pretty irrelevant to go for 482 as BiS. If it's for Twintania's adds (or any boss adds) then I would just have a piece to swap for that battle to get those 482 ACC. I wouldn't etablish a BiS list where the ACC is made for 0.5% of the content and a loss of stat 99.5% of the rest, I guess that's what you meant in an ealier topic Ayvar.
I'll see how those 10 ACC too much from the BiS list can be remployed to gain some stats. I know those 10 stats won't change anything, it's more for the principle.

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If they were referring to the wyverns and snakes then that is wrong, I've done hours on both of those mobs and haven't missed with 473. My 80min parse even includes the 3 wyverns from the start in the mob list.

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Originally Posted by snowybell

I tested 463 accuracy, did not miss at T5 at all.

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Please post a parse for any specific accuracy numbers (and that you're actually playing a Dragoon), it's not that I don't believe you, but we do want some evidence to back this up. The 482 cap got around through word of mouth with nothing to back it up, and we want to avoid that same mistake. I feel I've sufficiently confirmed that at least 473 is fine, so if you could run a nonstop parse for as long as you can and post a shot that includes your job, names of mobs hit, duration of the parse, damage done, and percent misses.

EDIT - Dug up my old post and the parse @ 473, here it is:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1543456

http://i.imgur.com/xsFya52.png

I agree 482 seems too high and wastes stats. Even though I have no proof of any parser or anything, I can tell I have never missed in T5 in all my attempts with 472 accuracy (463+food) since it would be really noticeable (missing combos, debuffs, buffs). And even in the case you miss with that amount of accuracy, the chance is so low that it is probably not worth it having.

I personally aim for 472, but lower might be possible, and this is the BiS I get with 472.

Code:

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Score: 658.635
Weapon: Allagan Spear
Gloves: Allagan Gauntlets Of Maiming
Helmet: Wyrm's Armet
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Hero's Belt Of Maiming
Pants: Wyrm's Breeches
Feet: Allagan Sollerets Of Maiming
Neck: Hero's Necklace Of Slaying
Earrings: Hero's Earring Of Slaying
Wrists: Inferno Bangle Of Striking
Ring1: Vortex Ring Of Striking
Ring2: Allagan Ring Of Striking
Food: Hq Deviled Eggs

Weapon Damage: 47
Strength: 224
Vitality: 194
Critical: 139
Accuracy: 131
Skill Speed: 72
Determination: 101

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With 463 acc I get scores of 660, and with 482 i get 656, and according to EMX 2 points = 1 dps so it is really not noticeable nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by zeth07

Could someone with the calculations check the gear sets if Skill Speed is completely ignored in the stat weights / item budget weights?

I'm curious to see what changes, if any, would occur and what skill speed would be given just by default with those different gear choices.

Thanks.

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This is what I get and seems quite good if you don't like SS at all I guess.

Code:

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Score: 658.093
Weapon: Allagan Spear
Gloves: Allagan Gauntlets Of Maiming
Helmet: Allagan Visor Of Maiming
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Hero's Belt Of Maiming
Pants: Allagan Trousers Of Maiming
Feet: Allagan Sollerets Of Maiming
Neck: Allagan Choker Of Maiming
Earrings: Tremor Earrings Of Striking
Wrists: Inferno Bangle Of Striking
Ring1: Allagan Ring Of Striking
Ring2: Vortex Ring Of Striking
Food: Hq Deviled Eggs

Weapon Damage: 47
Strength: 224
Vitality: 194
Critical: 143
Accuracy: 133
Skill Speed: 27
Determination: 129

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Correct me if I am wrong with anything.

Hey man. I understand where you are coming from. What app is that BTW? I use ffxivapp and it\\'s not that detailed. But it does show accuracy as 100% in a 30 min run. I have shots of those. And my dragoon is the only character that can do t5. I\\'ll post some results after I find out what you are using.

If anyone is interested in the accuracy cap for all 3 extreme primals it is somewhere as low as 447. I did not miss once after hours of Garuda, Titan and Ifrit.

At least 2 hours of each extreme primal and 0 misses @ 447 accuracy, my accuracy was only that low due to recently getting the Allagan spear and still having never seen the Allagan pants or purchased myth helm.

Going to push my luck Monday and try t1-5 with 468 accuracy with food and see how that goes lol, I've recorded 0 misses @ 475 through all phases of Twintania so it should be interesting.

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Originally Posted by KrystalF

I personally aim for 472, but lower might be possible, and this is the BiS I get with 472.

Code:

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Score: 658.635
Weapon: Allagan Spear
Gloves: Allagan Gauntlets Of Maiming
Helmet: Wyrm's Armet
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Hero's Belt Of Maiming
Pants: Wyrm's Breeches
Feet: Allagan Sollerets Of Maiming
Neck: Hero's Necklace Of Slaying
Earrings: Hero's Earring Of Slaying
Wrists: Inferno Bangle Of Striking
Ring1: Vortex Ring Of Striking
Ring2: Allagan Ring Of Striking
Food: Hq Deviled Eggs

Weapon Damage: 47
Strength: 224
Vitality: 194
Critical: 139
Accuracy: 131
Skill Speed: 72
Determination: 101

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With 463 acc I get scores of 660, and with 482 i get 656, and according to EMX 2 points = 1 dps so it is really not noticeable nonetheless.

Correct me if I am wrong with anything.

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Don't deviled eggs give you 2% accuracy, which you wouldn't need if you're hitting the cap with gear alone? or is that hitting the cap with food?

Would you mind checking 463+eggs and 472+buttons and posting both?

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Originally Posted by snowybell

Hey man. I understand where you are coming from. What app is that BTW? I use ffxivapp and it\\'s not that detailed. But it does show accuracy as 100% in a 30 min run. I have shots of those. And my dragoon is the only character that can do t5. I\\'ll post some results after I find out what you are using.

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That's LogRep2, but I use ACT now

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Originally Posted by pompey_dan

If anyone is interested in the accuracy cap for all 3 extreme primals it is somewhere as low as 447. I did not miss once after hours of Garuda, Titan and Ifrit.

At least 2 hours of each extreme primal and 0 misses @ 447 accuracy, my accuracy was only that low due to recently getting the Allagan spear and still having never seen the Allagan pants or purchased myth helm.

Going to push my luck Monday and try t1-5 with 468 accuracy with food and see how that goes lol, I've recorded 0 misses @ 475 through all phases of Twintania so it should be interesting.

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Thanks for the info. Parsing at 468 would be great! Try to parse all of T5 non-stop if you can (if it takes more than 1 attempt).

Actually if you can get it a little lower that'd be good, snowy is saying he has parses of no misses at 463 (which we'll hopefully see) so maybe we could start there and go up or down as needed? 468 is fine though if that's as close as you can get.

How important is determination btw? Just wondering, because CT set has none?

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Don't deviled eggs give you 2% accuracy, which you wouldn't need if you're hitting the cap with gear alone? or is that hitting the cap with food?

Would you mind checking 463+eggs and 472+buttons and posting both?

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That's hitting the cap with food. This is the BiS with buttons.

Code:

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Score: 657.4490000000001
Weapon: Allagan Spear
Gloves: Allagan Gauntlets Of Maiming
Helmet: Allagan Visor Of Maiming
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Hero's Belt Of Maiming
Pants: Allagan Trousers Of Maiming
Feet: Wyrm's Greaves
Neck: Hero's Necklace Of Slaying
Earrings: Allagan Earrings Of Striking
Wrists: Inferno Bangle Of Striking
Ring1: Allagan Ring Of Striking
Ring2: Vortex Ring Of Striking
Food: Hq Buttons In A Blanket

Weapon Damage: 47
Strength: 224
Vitality: 195
Critical: 124
Accuracy: 134
Skill Speed: 59
Determination: 118

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From my understanding the fact that deviled eggs are so good is because +5% crit is much more than +5% det.

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Originally Posted by KrystalF

From my understanding the fact that deviled eggs are so good is because +5% crit is much more than +5% det.

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That cant be the whole story since it's actually 2% crit vs 5% det (hq buttons has 3% crit). It just means the stats you gain from the extra gear (since you only need to hit 463 accuracy with deviled eggs) plus the 2% extra crit outweigh the stats lost to hit 472 accuracy and the 5% det gained from buttons.

So just to confirm, the BiS list to hit 472 accuracy is your first list posted with 463 accuracy from gear + hq deviled eggs giving a total stat score of 658.635?

This list would also play better in non-T5 encounters. It'd be best to aim for lower native accuracy on your gear (in this case 463) since you'd get more damage stats in place of accuracy for non-T5 fights (and you could use buttons), then just switch to eggs for T5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Don't deviled eggs give you 2% accuracy, which you wouldn't need if you're hitting the cap with gear alone? or is that hitting the cap with food?

Would you mind checking 463+eggs and 472+buttons and posting both?



That's LogRep2, but I use ACT now



Thanks for the info. Parsing at 468 would be great! Try to parse all of T5 non-stop if you can (if it takes more than 1 attempt).

Actually if you can get it a little lower that'd be good, snowy is saying he has parses of no misses at 463 (which we'll hopefully see) so maybe we could start there and go up or down as needed? 468 is fine though if that's as close as you can get.

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Yeah. These were taken off our team mate's com, i don't parse at all.
These were based on Twintania (till snake phase), 30 mins total because someone had to leave.
will get more results when we raid with everyone next week.

http://i.imgur.com/DcMGrex.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ibvaPzc.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

That cant be the whole story since it's actually 2% crit vs 5% det (hq buttons has 3% crit). It just means the stats you gain from the extra gear (since you only need to hit 463 accuracy with deviled eggs) plus the 2% extra crit outweigh the stats lost to hit 472 accuracy and the 5% det gained from buttons.

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Not sure if I understand this but HQ buttons has 5% det and 2% crit (not 3%) while deviled eggs has 5% crit and 2% accuracy. What I meant is the fact that you have around 480 crit and 300 det with a 90 gear, so 5% of crit would be 24 crit, while 5% det would be 15 det, therefore deviled give more deeps (when accuracy points are not wasted). Also you are wasting 3 points of accuracy using buttons that way I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

So just to confirm, the BiS list to hit 472 accuracy is your first list posted with 463 accuracy from gear + hq deviled eggs giving a total stat score of 658.635?

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Yes, and the score counts food stats aswell.

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Originally Posted by snowybell

Yeah. These were taken off our team mate's com, i don't parse at all.
These were based on Twintania (till snake phase), 30 mins total because someone had to leave.
will get more results when we raid with everyone next week.

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which accuracy % am I supposed to be looking at? There's a whole bunch of different people with their names blacked out. Also what accuracy rating was this parsing with?

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Originally Posted by KrystalF

Not sure if I understand this but HQ buttons has 5% det and 2% crit (not 3%) while deviled eggs has 5% crit and 2% accuracy. What I meant is the fact that you have around 480 crit and 300 det with a 90 gear, so 5% of crit would be 24 crit, while 5% det would be 15 det, therefore deviled give more deeps (when accuracy points are not wasted). Also you are wasting 3 points of accuracy using buttons that way I guess.

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I just meant that it's not a straight 5% crit -5% det comparison, it's really a 3% crit - 5% det comparison since you have to account for the 2% crit on hq buttons. Either way thanks for the list, I'll get that into the main post and we can update as we revise the accuracy cap over the next week or two.

Oh, do you mind also producing a pre-T5 list with the same accuracy cap?

EDIT: T5 BiS for 2.1 has now been updated on the main post

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

which accuracy % am I supposed to be looking at? There's a whole bunch of different people with their names blacked out. Also what accuracy rating was this parsing with?



I just meant that it's not a straight 5% crit -5% det comparison, it's really a 3% crit - 5% det comparison since you have to account for the 2% crit on hq buttons. Either way thanks for the list, I'll get that into the main post and we can update as we revise the accuracy cap over the next week or two.

Oh, do you mind also producing a pre-T5 list with the same accuracy cap?

EDIT: T5 BiS for 2.1 has now been updated on the main post

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My IG is princess snowybell, it was done with 463 accuracy. No food buff.

命中力463
クリティカル発動力483
意思力255

These are my stats (Acc/Crit/Det).

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Originally Posted by snowybell

My IG is princess snowybell, it was done with 463 accuracy. No food buff.

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Interesting to see 0% misses at that accuracy, but aren't these only 5min parses? We'll need a longer duration to confirm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

I just meant that it's not a straight 5% crit -5% det comparison, it's really a 3% crit - 5% det comparison since you have to account for the 2% crit on hq buttons. Either way thanks for the list, I'll get that into the main post and we can update as we revise the accuracy cap over the next week or two.

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Ah, I see, I didn't do the substract since 2% accuracy is probably the same or better than 2% crit (since you are not wasting the acc), and then you only compare 5% det with 5% crit, if that makes sense :p

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Oh, do you mind also producing a pre-T5 list with the same accuracy cap?

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Should I count extreme primals in or out? or both? I'll do both I guess

Pre-T5 w/ Extremes

Code:

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Score: 648.9929999999999
Weapon: Gae Bolg Zenith
Gloves: Wyrm's Gauntlets
Helmet: Allagan Visor Of Maiming
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Hero's Belt Of Maiming
Pants: Wyrm's Breeches
Feet: Wyrm's Greaves
Neck: Hero's Necklace Of Slaying
Earrings: Allagan Earrings Of Striking
Wrists: Inferno Bangle Of Striking
Ring1: Vortex Ring Of Striking
Ring2: Allagan Ring Of Striking
Food: Hq Deviled Eggs

Weapon Damage: 46
Strength: 221
Vitality: 190
Critical: 189
Accuracy: 131
Skill Speed: 81
Determination: 58

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Pre-T5 w/o Extremes

Code:

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Score: 647.913
Weapon: Gae Bolg Zenith
Gloves: Wyrm's Gauntlets
Helmet: Allagan Visor Of Maiming
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Hero's Belt Of Maiming
Pants: Wyrm's Breeches
Feet: Wyrm's Greaves
Neck: Hero's Necklace Of Slaying
Earrings: Hero's Earring Of Slaying
Wrists: Allagan Bracelets Of Striking
Ring1: Allagan Ring Of Maiming
Ring2: Allagan Ring Of Striking
Food: Hq Deviled Eggs

Weapon Damage: 46
Strength: 221
Vitality: 190
Critical: 156
Accuracy: 131
Skill Speed: 97
Determination: 69

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405 accuracy for 2 hours of extreme ifrit farming = 0 misses lol

Why would you use the Allagan Earrings of Striking (16 crit and 11 skill speed) over the Tremor Earrings of Striking (11 crit and 11 det) in the Pre T5 BIS list?

So much text...
Any plans for a video tutorial that explains this all?
Like the different scenarios, normal grinding, bossing etc etc.

On another note which cross-class skills should I have at 50?

Internal release<<<<<<<<

I also keep on mercy stroke cuz it's a semi-useful, off-GCD damage boost and foresight has never saved me . . .
I also keep on second wind and bloodbath for when I screw up, then I don't need a cure... I should probably change those.
A lot of people have dropped fracture, but I've kept mine on because i'm lazy. :)

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Originally Posted by Zeph311

Why would you use the Allagan Earrings of Striking (16 crit and 11 skill speed) over the Tremor Earrings of Striking (11 crit and 11 det) in the Pre T5 BIS list?

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Because with the new weights the Allagan Earrings of Striking have a score of 4,6~ while the Tremor Earrings of Striking have a score of 4,2~. Shouldn't be much difference though.

Giving skill speed a weight seems rather odd. It does absolutely nothing for you if it doesn't drop your GCD. For example, I've got 42 skill speed in gear, but I'm fairly certain at least 2 points of it are making no contribution at all.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Giving skill speed a weight seems rather odd. It does absolutely nothing for you if it doesn't drop your GCD. For example, I've got 42 skill speed in gear, but I'm fairly certain at least 2 points of it are making no contribution at all.

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It probably "does but the UI doesn't show it".

I can't see shaving .002(?) seconds actually doing anything useful, even over a long fight. Twintania is a 13 minute fight? That extra skill speed shaves off 1.56 seconds over the entire course of the fight. Not even giving you another GCD to use.

1. After 20 seconds of consecutive attacks, you've saved roughly 0.016 seconds. If you have to run into a conflag or whatever, you have a 0.016 / 2.46 = 0.7% chance to get an extra full GCD off before freezing. After 40 seconds, that chance increases to 1.3%. And that's from ... "2" SS.

2. It's not like crit is much better. 2 points of CRT is something like 0.14% chance for +50% damage.

3. SS is still our worst stat, but it has value.

In any case, stat weights aren't really there to try to make a decision for you on "2" of any offstat. Hell you can't even choose "2" skill speed. If you want to manually micromanage every gear decision per your own specific breakpoints (e.g. 42 SS is only worth "40" SS to you ... ??), that's fine. The stat weights are there to guide a gearing strategy where you are comparing 15-30 chunks of different secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by KrystalF

That's hitting the cap with food. This is the BiS with buttons.From my understanding the fact that deviled eggs are so good is because +5% crit is much more than +5% det.

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In my opinion and from what Ive seen running my script a bunch of times at different accuracy values. The 7-9 or so accuracy points you get from hq Deviled eggs outweighs the dps boost you get from Buttons in a Blanket. Using EMX's new stat weights a close to BiS set would get approximately 4.746* dps weight out of hq buttons, and 3.938* weight out of hq eggs.

(*these numbers are based on your gear/stats etc since it is % based)

The difference between the two foods is around (0.7-0.8). Let's say you swapped out one or two pieces of gear to get to the accuracy cap, you would lose far more than 0.7 to 0.8 dps weight. Thus in my opinion it is better to use deviled eggs to get to the accuracy cap.

For cross class skills, I have Foresight, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, Featherfoot and Internal Release. Foresight and Featherfoot are good for when you have to tank something (along with Keen Flurry), Mercy Stroke is a free 200 potency attack (and properly timed can give you a nice chunk of HP back if you need it), Bloodbath is useful in heavy fighting when your healers can't get to you RIGHT NOW (or when tanking), and a bonus 10% crit chance is always nice.

As a general note, I think that valk's damage formula is off by far enough that the stat weights I posted previously are "wrong" -- DTR is underweighted by a significant amount. It's somewhat likely that DTR is the best offstat.

This won't change the balance between crit and SS.

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Originally Posted by Aramaki

So much text...
Any plans for a video tutorial that explains this all?
Like the different scenarios, normal grinding, bossing etc etc

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reading...so....hard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reven

4+ Hours of Turn 5 until we downed it. Ran the entire time with 476 ACC with food. Merged all the pulls during that time.

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Thanks for the parse, I think we've confirmed at least a 472 ceiling, hopefully we can get some people parsing with accuracy in the 460's to see how low it goes

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

In my opinion and from what I've seen running my script a bunch of times at different accuracy values. The 7-9 or so accuracy points you get from hq Deviled eggs outweighs the dps boost you get from Buttons in a Blanket.

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We confirmed this a couple pages ago

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Originally Posted by Zeph311

Why would you use the Allagan Earrings of Striking (16 crit and 11 skill speed) over the Tremor Earrings of Striking (11 crit and 11 det) in the Pre T5 BIS list?

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It's fine if you want to overvalue det. Just swap out items, such as the earrings, that favor skill speed over determination

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

We confirmed this a couple pages ago

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heh, sounds good man, i skipped over the last 10 or so pages because i've been away from here during the entire holiday break. on a side note the more and more I look at these BiS lists the more I think the diff is negligible as long as you don't go too far above accuracy cap with i90 gear and have your i95 spear.

I actually liked what you said about aiming for slightly below acc cap on gear stats and using the eggs to get to the cap for T5 while using buttons for everything else, been doing that myself for a bit now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

heh, sounds good man, i skipped over the last 10 or so pages because i've been away from here during the entire holiday break. on a side note the more and more I look at these BiS lists the more I think the diff is negligible as long as you don't go too far above accuracy cap with i90 gear and have your i95 spear.

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You are certainly correct that the differences are very small, though some people do like to work out those small differences. The one factor that will have the largest effect on our dps will be figuring out the correct accuracy cap. Dropping accuracy has a much larger benefit than quibbling over a few points of crit/det/skill speed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aramaki

So much text...
On another note which cross-class skills should I have at 50?

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IMO, the absolutely necessary ones are Internal Release and Mercy Stroke. Fracture used to be up here and could still be useful in some fights and depending on your SS (you would need really really high skill speed for it to be useful as a filler)

But after that I aim for survivability, Foresight/Second Wind/Bloodbath is my personal set.

I've seen some people get Mantra, eh its okay, I personally won't level MNK to 41 or so for it..

Haymaker/featherfoot, dunno if its worth the trouble waiting for dodge procs i mean how often do you have the boss on you in a raid..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

You are certainly correct that the differences are very small, though some people do like to work out those small differences. The one factor that will have the largest effect on our dps will be figuring out the correct accuracy cap. Dropping accuracy has a much larger benefit than quibbling over a few points of crit/det/skill speed

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Yeah man, I am a min/maxer, which is why i wrote my script ^^ But what I really meant by that is I have a choice to choose "better looking" gear over BiS and not be that far off from BiS, made me really happy because I love the Wyrm set.

As per figuring out the correct accuracy cap, yes I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one, seems like it has the biggest effect on total "dps weight".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

As a general note, I think that valk's damage formula is off by far enough that the stat weights I posted previously are "wrong" -- DTR is underweighted by a significant amount. It's somewhat likely that DTR is the best offstat.

This won't change the balance between crit and SS.

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So are all the BiS lists that have been posted recently not accurate now? Can we get anymore clarification on what are the "right" stat weights?

I understand all the differences are generally negligible but the whole point of the BiS lists is to find that small increase, so I'm curious to see what it is supposed to be now.

"Yes".

The fundamental issue is that determination has always been something of a question mark. The BiS lists posted recently have a basic stat priority of Crit > Dtr > SS (and in some cases Crit > SS > Dtr). In all likelihood, determination is going to be stronger than what the BiS lists were originally based on by a pretty good margin.

This means that the stat priority will probably change to Dtr > Crit > SS when all is said and done. I'm not going to post anything for certain until there's more confirmation from people testing and from other classes.

Generally speaking, SS has always been unattractive since it's fundamentally weaker and drains extra TP to boot, so I hope everyone's been de-prioritizing it in gear as much as possible. The real question is crit versus determination.

I can't contribute much to the discussion, I would at least like to thank you guys for helping be a better DRG, though :D

Personally, ever since reading discussions about need tons of skill speed to make a difference (aside from the resource drain) I have been trying to prioritize crit and determination. I don't see the negative from having too much of either of those stats regardless of what the weights are, other than maybe pulling hate off a tank :P

I was also reading that LB builds when DPS deliver a critical attack, that's good, right? :D