What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

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Giving up on life is generally considered a bad thing. That was the entire point. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

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Originally Posted by Denji

then comes zodiark, a being made from far more ancients. while this is true we also are aware that zodiark was around for days, if not weeks/months after he was summoned. he used his powers not just to enthrall(this is debatable)

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It's ultimately a side effect of his summoning due to the sheer power going into it. The debatable part is the use of "enthrall", which comes down to his characteristics and the fact that the tempering we witness with the beast tribes is by contrast premised on flawed/simplified rites taught by the Ascians; in Zodiark's case, the Loporrit in the JP version for example make it clear that his raw power is what caused it. Ultimately it has some negative consequences for the summoners, particularly if they don't preserve their identity over time, but enthralment isn't necessarily one of those.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

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Isn't Meteion influencing them exactly what happened? They were living a perfectly serene and peaceful life with no awareness of the outside universe, then Meteion showed up and they decided to make Ra-la in response, seemingly on a whim.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

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Pretty sure suicide is frowned upon.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Isn't Meteion influencing them exactly what happened? They were living a perfectly serene and peaceful life with no awareness of the outside universe, then Meteion showed up and they decided to make Ra-la in response, seemingly on a whim.

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No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Well no, there is a reason, and that reason is if their society was restored as it was, which those sacrifices were intended to accomplish (=restoration of the star to its pre-Final Days state), she believes they're still on track to meet an eventual doom along the lines of the Plenty, hence the way her rationale is presented is that the sundering is to remove the temptation of restoring things as they were. The objection is very clearly centered around this, i.e. the aim and not just the method. You can acknowledge the intention but in the absence of knowing what was involved and whether they'd even stick to this plan if they were given a full accounting of what had happened, it's a rather speculative acknowledgement, and we're stuck with her stated rationale.

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The sundering was certainly a means to prevent Zodiark to be used to restore their society, and I believe that is their main objective. But that doesn't mean that is their only reason, because their group's objection to the sacrifice was also pointed out in the story. If the sacrifice itself was irrelevant, the focus would simply be on their objection to the restoration of the society.

Even Venat herself didn't simply say to restore their society is wrong, but to sacrifice more/others to restore their society is bad. (I don't remember the exact wording here, but I'm pretty sure she mentioned the sacrifice.)

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It's a fine as an assumption but we must bear in mind that the sundered possess the souls of sundered ancients (as per Elidibus in 5.2), of which some 25% or so of the remaining population were still around at the time. Still, it's possible the bodies were the result of creation magicks, at least for some races, but who knows.

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I believe the reason why we possess their souls is simply due to reincarnation via the lifestream. That is why I'm not certain that the sundering actually killed anyone, but rather split off part of their aether into the reflections, with those on the source still remaining as the source or the original/main copy. Then, due to the loss of aether, the Ancients either die off eventually, mutated/evolved as a race, or even mate with some of the new life to get the existing races.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

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Setting aside for the moment the question of whether suicide is right or wrong, Meteion used that as another support for her conclusion that death is a preferrable outcome and decides that end for everyone else, and that is wrong.

The point is that, just because someone lost the will to live, doesn't mean everyone else would and should too.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's ultimately a side effect of his summoning due to the sheer power going into it. The debatable part is the use of "enthrall", which comes down to his characteristics and the fact that the tempering we witness with the beast tribes is by contrast premised on flawed/simplified rites taught by the Ascians; in Zodiark's case, the Loporrit in the JP version for example make it clear that his raw power is what caused it. Ultimately it has some negative consequences for the summoners, particularly if they don't preserve their identity over time, but enthralment isn't necessarily one of those.

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i'm aware of this and i'm aware that emet-selch indicates he's enthralled in the ENG ver. of shadowbringers and tries to plant a seed of doubt in you that you yourself have been enthralled by the milf crystal which Ardbert even mentions (and then dismisses). generally when i say something like that it's not because i have reason to believe otherwise but because people get -really- upset when you take imply their waifus/husbandos are acting a particular way only because they've been enthralled by zodiark. (emet-selch becomes more jack-sparrow-y, elidibus becomes cold and uncaring, lahabrea is... well. lahabrea. etc.)

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Giving up on life is generally considered a bad thing. That was the entire point. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

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they've lived their life free of pain and sorrow, attained everything they wanted and more and every single one of them decided that they should go back to the aetherial sea, to so speak
I don't see anything bad about this, but this is certainly not the forum to discuss things like that lol

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Pretty sure suicide is frowned upon.

No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

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it's still a game, though, and holding it to the same standards as the real world in this case is weird when various other things in the game aren't held to the same real world standards either

thought so, though she certainly caused other stars to die after succumbing to despair

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

they've lived their life free of pain and sorrow, attained everything they wanted and more and every single one of them decided that they should go back to the aetherial sea, to so speak
I don't see anything bad about this, but this is certainly not the forum to discuss things like that lol



it's still a game, though, and holding it to the same standards as the real world in this case is weird when various other things in the game aren't held to the same real world standards either

thought so, though she certainly caused other stars to die after succumbing to despair

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And yet they showed it in full display to drive the point home that giving up on life is a bad thing. lol It is one of the major themes of Endwalker. Seriously.

yes, because that's how the story portrayed it, nowhere did I say it didn't or shouldn't have done that, all I did was give my opinion that I found it odd and juvenile with the striving for/attaining perfection is bad message

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

And yet they showed it in full display to drive the point home that giving up on life is a bad thing. lol It is one of the major themes of Endwalker. Seriously.

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I don’t think they’re arguing that the story did or didn’t say it, but the story has a lot of “themes” that it tries to portray and a lot of the time players either don’t agree with them or some find it humorous when they try to push themes but then have the main cast contradict them lol.

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Originally Posted by linayar

The sundering was certainly a means to prevent Zodiark to be used to restore their society, and I believe that is their main objective. But that doesn't mean that is their only reason, because their group's objection to the sacrifice was also pointed out in the story. If the sacrifice itself was irrelevant, the focus would simply be on their objection to the restoration of the society.

Even Venat herself didn't simply say to restore their society is wrong, but to sacrifice more/others to restore their society is bad. (I don't remember the exact wording here, but I'm pretty sure she mentioned the sacrifice.)

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The objection only comes up initially with Hythlodaeus's shade, and it's not until Anamnesis Anyder that we get the underlying motivation behind their position. Her arguments are clearly articulated with sacrifices with a specific aim in mind and which she labels bad for a specific reason, i.e. because they are (according to her) a sign of weakness (again, she even grants that the Convocation in enacting this wish is doing so out of a desire to safeguard the star's future well-being...), and why? Because she sees it as them not accepting their tragedy. This is all with Meteion's report on the fate that met a society which did away with suffering in mind. I wouldn't say she is on board with restoring their society. She is exhorting them to incorporate their lessons from the tragedy and to accept suffering as a constant companion.

The dialogue bears this out:

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Bitter Ancient: This is all wrong... Why must we suffer so?
Fervent Ancient: It needn't be like this. No, there must be a way to restore things to the way they were. To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.
Venat: No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise.
Venat: No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion.
Venat: Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.
Bitter Ancient: We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again─a world free of sorrow!
Venat: No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.
Venat: So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness.
Venat: No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.

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While I don't see an issue with people speculating that they may have had some moral reasoning attached to this (I certainly don't see it and I don't think we can even arrive at such a conclusion without knowing what was being sacrificed), all the texts where her or her group outline their motives do so with recourse to this ultimate aim, i.e. avoid their eventual doom. She even confirms this when asked by Y'shtola as to why she chose to sunder her people - it was to deal with Meteion (and I'd add to that the fate which met the Plenty.)

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I believe the reason why we possess their souls is simply due to reincarnation via the lifestream. That is why I'm not certain that the sundering actually killed anyone, but rather split off part of their aether into the reflections, with those on the source still remaining as the source or the original/main copy. Then, due to the loss of aether, the Ancients either die off eventually, mutated/evolved as a race, or even mate with some of the new life to get the existing races.

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It may not have killed them then and there, but at that point we're talking about an instant death versus a delayed one, like a poison or disease would inflict. And to a being that is virtually immortal, that "delay" may not take long at all.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

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The notes within the Dead Ends say otherwise. Meteion is credited with both triggering the world war that decimated world #2 as well as her incessant pestering having caused the existential crisis of world #3 leading to the creation of Ra-la.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The objection only comes up initially with Hythlodaeus's shade, and it's not until Anamnesis Anyder that we get the underlying motivation behind their position. Her arguments are clearly articulated with sacrifices with a specific aim in mind and which she labels bad for a specific reason, i.e. because they are (according to her) a sign of weakness (again, she even grants that the Convocation in enacting this wish is doing so out of a desire to safeguard the star's future well-being...), and why? Because she sees it as them not accepting their tragedy. This is all with Meteion's report on the fate that met a society which did away with suffering in mind. I wouldn't say she is on board with restoring their society. She is exhorting them to incorporate their lessons from the tragedy and to accept suffering as a constant companion.

The dialogue bears this out:



While I don't see an issue with people speculating that they may have had some moral reasoning attached to this (I certainly don't see it and I don't think we can even arrive at such a conclusion without knowing what was being sacrificed), all the texts where her or her group outline their motives do so with recourse to this ultimate aim, i.e. avoid their eventual doom.

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i think it's also good to point out that while ancients may have temporarily not suffered that suffering still existed on the star. the (sq)grapes azem supposedly saved was actually done to save the people living on the island which implies both sentient and sapient non-ancients clearly existed on the star at that point. it's isn't far fetched to then postulate that the lack of suffering the ancients claim to have experienced was no more than just them off-loading their own personal suffering on those they viewed as lesser beings.

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Originally Posted by Denji

i'm aware of this and i'm aware that emet-selch indicates he's enthralled in the ENG ver. of shadowbringers and tries to plant a seed of doubt in you that you yourself have been enthralled by the milf crystal which Ardbert even mentions (and then dismisses). generally when i say something like that it's not because i have reason to believe otherwise but because people get -really- upset when you take imply their waifus/husbandos are acting a particular way only because they've been enthralled by zodiark. (emet-selch becomes more jack-sparrow-y, elidibus becomes cold and uncaring, lahabrea is... well. lahabrea. etc.)

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It's less a matter of being "upset" in this case. He says he is tempered in the EN version, yes, but not specifically enthralled. In FR he uses the word "subjugated" (presented as that - in quotations), and explains that tempering has made them into energy transmission belts of Zodiark. Up to that point, we might surmise they could still have been acting under his direction. Where it begins to fall apart is the fact that 1) he lacks a will when not being controlled, other than apparently acting on some self-defence instincts; 2) his tempering was due to his great power rather than rites intended to induce slavish obedience and 3) Emet-Selch actively deviates from his original plan by devising for the WoL a test. He even states at the end (with Zodiark gone and presumably "cleansed" through the Aetherial Sea) that his principles remain invincible and that he clashed with the WoL due to their goals being different. He honours the test he set. As for Lahabrea and Elidibus? In their case, yes, tempering did appear to degrade the mind, because they didn't take efforts to preserve their memories (Elidibus) or identity (Lahabrea), unlike Emet-Selch.

It's not that they're tempered which people are disputing, but rather the idea that from this, it follows that they were acting on Zodiark's direction.

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Originally Posted by Denji

i think it's also good to point out that while ancients may have temporarily not suffered that suffering still existed on the star. the (sq)grapes azem supposedly saved was actually done to save the people living on the island which implies both sentient and sapient non-ancients clearly existed on the star at that point.

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The source in question gives no reason to believe this.

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it's isn't far fetched to then postulate that the lack of suffering the ancients claim to have experienced was no more than just them off-loading their own personal suffering on those they viewed as lesser beings.

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I don't get that impression TBH - you might be able to make that argument with Hermes, where he did do just that, but with the rest they appeared to take genuine contentment in working towards betterment of their star and/or for each others' sake.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's less a matter of being "upset" in this case. He says he is tempered in the EN version, yes, but not specifically enthralled. In FR he uses the word "subjugated" (presented as that - in quotations), and explains that tempering has made them into energy transmission belts of Zodiark. Up to that point, we might surmise they could still have been acting under his direction. Where it begins to fall apart is the fact that 1) he lacks a will when not being controlled, other than apparently acting on some self-defence instincts; 2) his tempering was due to his great power rather than rites intended to induce slavish obedience and 3) Emet-Selch actively deviates from his original plan by devising for the WoL a test. He even states at the end (with Zodiark gone and presumably "cleansed" through the Aetherial Sea) that his principles remain invincible and that he clashed with the WoL due to their goals being different. He honours the test he set. As for Lahabrea and Elidibus? In their case, yes, tempering did appear to degrade the mind, because they didn't take efforts to preserve their memories (Elidibus) or identity (Lahabrea), unlike Emet-Selch.

It's not that they're tempered which people are disputing, but rather the idea that from this, it follows that they were acting on Zodiark's direction.

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which isn't what i'm saying either. i'm just saying whether or not they're tempered is a matter open for debate and it's a debate i don't want to be a part of because of/one of the reasons i gave. that's all.

Fair enough. Personally I wouldn't dispute that they are. It's more down to what that entails.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The notes within the Dead Ends say otherwise. Meteion is credited with both triggering the world war that decimated world #2 as well as her incessant pestering having caused the existential crisis of world #3 leading to the creation of Ra-la.

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If only someone had dropped a gaming console in that world. They'd soon find themselves with too little time.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

on the topic of meteion earlier in the thread, why was what the last race of the dead ends dungeon did considered bad again? they willingly let themselves be erased because they've lived perfect lives and that's... wrong? I don't know how to really explain it but if I had to try I'd say that EW trying really, really hard to hammer that 'perfect is bad' (as someone called it) point down was really off-putting for me, and even seemed pretty childish with their message that you must experience suffering or bad things or you're, well, bad

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They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

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https://media.giphy.com/media/26FLgG...GAbm/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

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And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

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"Curiosity killed the cat" probably. lol

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

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The implication that "perfect is bad" is hard to shake off when they show different societies which reached different states of "fulfillment", "enlightenment", "perfection", "immortality", etc. and they all "reached" a catastrophic end (in some cases by nothing more than the power of the writer's pen imo and not a natural progression of events). Not a single one managed to keep living their lives. How can you shake off the implication that reaching such a state is indeed a bad thing with such representation?

But to be completely honest all those societies feel very manufactured for the sole purpose of being lectured by our cast of protagonists from a position as imperfect beings. It doesn't even matter if their speech made any sense or not. The point is "these imperfect beigns are lecturing far more perfect or powerful beings, validating Venat's decision to make the world as imperfect as possible". I'll agree that the true message isn't "perfect is bad" but as others have said earlier in the thread it's "not being on the protagonists side is bad".

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Originally Posted by Sicno

The implication that "perfect is bad" is hard to shake off when they show different societies which reached different states of "fulfillment", "enlightenment", "perfection", "immortality", etc. and they all "reached" a catastrophic end (in some cases by nothing more than the power of the writer's pen imo and not a natural progression of events). Not a single one managed to keep living their lives. How can you shake off the implication that reaching such a state is indeed a bad thing with such representation?

But to be completely honest all those societies feel very manufactured for the sole purpose of beign lectured by our cast of protagonists from a position as imperfect beings. It doesn't even matter if their speech made any sense or not. The point is "these imperfect beigns are lecturing far more perfect or powerful beings, validating Venat's decision to make the world as imperfect as possible". I'll agree that the true message isn't "perfect is bad" but as others have said earlier in the thread it's "not being on the protagonists side is bad".

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of course they seem manufactured, meition created them from what she could salvage and pieced it all together. it's all gonna slant toward her(their) personal experiences rather than anything that's actually happened because it's been stated time and time again that memories are wiped when you die and return to the aether, excluding of course the people who temporarily linger because they feel they have not completed an important task in life which, again would shift the narrative toward something negative.

everyone is forgetting here that hermes threw literal 3 week old children into the cosmos and told them to find an answer to a question that couldn't actually be answered.

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Originally Posted by Denji

of course they seem manufactured, meition created them from...

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No, what I mean by "manufactured" is that the hand of the writer is so heavy you can almost see their fingernails on the screen. Even accounting for discrepancies in Meteion's reproductions it's clear that the intent is to show how our "sundered", "imperfect", etc. beings can find more meaning in life than them, who reached the pinnacle of whatever it is they wanted to achieve (except for the dragons). That having the main cast prevail over them is proof of their determination, principles, etc. and that Venat was "right" in creating such beings.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

If only someone had dropped a gaming console in that world. They'd soon find themselves with too little time.

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Yeah, it was annoying that "perfection" basically ended up meaning bored and/or disillusioned. My mother used to say boredom is a choice and she could always find things to do. I couldn't help but think of that with a few of the 'doomed' civilizations.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

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The message is sundered > unsundered. EW seemed intent on undermining the Ancients in every possible way by implying they were beyond saving and that dynamis somehow makes the sundered superior (even though as far as I'm concerned that case was never made). It's unfortunate the most interesting and compelling arcs for two expansions now have been from a past civilization rather than anything current.

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Originally Posted by Fayt1203

Dont think the blessing has any impact on the color of the soul seeing that only what the blessing do is to protect the aether from corruption. like invisible sphere around the soul.

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Isn't that the Echo that does that?

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

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The blessing is apparently the echo on steroids.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

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The Echo is a fraction of the power of an ancient, a residual power that normally rests within all life in the Source and its reflections, there is a way to trigger awakening to the Echo which often lead to experience a vision of a star-shower falling from a burning sky. and seeing that we are sunderd we need blessing or the traveler's ward as Venat called it for protection.

Jandor has a simpler term,

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The blessing is apparently the echo on steroids.

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Criticizing Venat's action is like criticizing historical character by today's moral standard.
It is not making any sense just like you are criticizing 70s computers for being slow in year 2022.
Morality is something that humanity work hard to develop in a progressive track.
You will always find morality of the pass inferior with today's standard.
Criticizing historical figures for a lack of awareness of a morality that was yet to emerge is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Criticizing Venat's action is like criticizing historical character by today's moral standard.
It is not making any sense just like you are criticizing 70s computers for being slow in year 2022.
Morality is something that humanity work hard to develop in a progressive track.
You will always find morality of the pass inferior with today's standard.
Criticizing historical figures for a lack of awareness of a morality that was yet to emerge is absurd.

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Venat is not real and was written by modern people.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yeah, it was annoying that "perfection" basically ended up meaning bored and/or disillusioned. My mother used to say boredom is a choice and she could always find things to do. I couldn't help but think of that with a few of the 'doomed' civilizations.



The message is sundered > unsundered. EW seemed intent on undermining the Ancients in every possible way by implying they were beyond saving and that dynamis somehow makes the sundered superior (even though as far as I'm concerned that case was never made). It's unfortunate the most interesting and compelling arcs for two expansions now have been from a past civilization rather than anything current.

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The only way they can even make a threat out of it is through the suggestion that eventually she will absorb so much it will overwhelm the barrier protecting the star, plus it is obviously a rather novel form of energy so less well understood and so she had some element of "surprise" to her advantage, since next to no civilisation she encountered seemed to have mastered its manipulation. In the end, she is overcome by a handful of sundered and the barrier Zodiark maintains, even sundered, lasts for at least 12k years. While this energy may be more abundant in certain regions of space, and thus have value if you want to harness it for travel, I think Hermes was under-selling just how much weaker it is. This, coupled with the fact that the Plenty felt rather contrived as a scenario (for the reason you mention), did not really suffice push that point if it was what they were going for. My own view is that they would have adjusted as necessary if given a full explanation of what Meteion had found (and ended up) and where their pursuits could end (again if we take the Plenty as a possible outcome), plus the state of the moribund stars and this supposed eventual "heat death" of the universe would also no doubt provide stimulating projects. Suddenly you have a whole bunch of stars you can revive.

As Sicno mentioned, all the scenarios felt contrived to some extent, and it's not like any of the Scions are dropping their own striving for "better tomorrows". I just find it comical that the poster girl just shrugs off a question that vexed the Ea to the point that they lost their entire purpose. I very much doubt they're trying to push Hermes's exhortation to the Lykaones (enacted by Zenos as well) as the answer to despair (=exist and forge your own purpose even if you bring nothing of value to anyone or anything else - even if you are detrimental to them - and this will allow you to survive or thrive in the face of despair), as somehow a morally superior stance to all those who strive to do better - in the end, even this mindset would lead to eventual despair when no one sees any value in engaging you and you can't even sate your hedonistic desires, i.e. Alisaie's response to Zenos. I doubt that a low-level state of constant managed strife and suffering, as exists in a place like Ul'dah or the Steppes, is being presented as the ideal, even if the story would lead one to believe these places are built to last longer term (they've barely even lasted a fraction of the time some of these ancient societies are implied to have lasted.) Such viewpoints just seem to be invoked as instrumentally useful in driving back Meteion, but not as worthwhile viewpoints beyond that. Rather, I believe the point is simply that you can risk making the more positive things in life lose their taste by eradicating all their negative counterparts, but how well they made that point is very much up for debate, and I consider that they did so clumsily and that the contrived nature of these scenarios did not help. IMO, on that point, the sundered may very well succumb to such a problem themselves in the future, especially with the calamities out the way and the desire to spread peace and prosperity and minimise suffering still there. Even if lessons are learnt now about the dangers of pursuing perfection (as presented), they will not last eternally and may even be doubted eventually. These impulses remain, and it's not like they're going to put anyone off the ideal of a world free of wars, death through ageing, poverty, disease, hunger etc., provided they find something to keep themselves occupied with... in which case, perhaps finding a way to deal with that problem rather than abandoning perfectionist ideals is the proper response. I certainly reject the notion that these ideals should be dropped.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

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It is, certainly as per all lore to date. What Venat bestowed on the WoL is as others mentioned a "traveller's ward", intended to ward off aetheric corruption, but IMO it is more than this, because she is actively funnelling her power into it. This is why Midgardsormr eventually cuts off the connection to it (temporarily), because it taxes her so greatly, with the idea that the WoL should become a bit stronger to rely less on her - eventually it's restored in full. Ultimately, she is a primal, so while it may have started as some traveller's ward, my belief based on the evidence we have is that it's also a conduit for funnelling her primal power into her champion. Other primals do this as well. After all, it was for their blessing that G'raha wanted to summon the WoL to the First to deal with the Lightwardens, and it is their blessing which Hades curses during the fight, and tries to drown out through the darkness he's able to conjure. I'd have to agree though that there's nothing in all that which would necessarily make the hue of a soul change.

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Originally Posted by Fayt1203

The Echo is a fraction of the power of an ancient, a residual power that normally rests within all life in the Source and its reflections, there is a way to trigger awakening to the Echo which often lead to experience a vision of a star-shower falling from a burning sky. and seeing that we are sunderd we need blessing or the traveler's ward as Venat called it for protection.

Jandor has a simpler term,

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So then:
Emet-Selch: Yes? Did my lesson provoke thought, giving rise to further questions?

>> Choice 1: Three of you escaped the sundering. But what of those who didn't...?
Emet-Selch: Why, their very beings were divided into fourteen, of course. Yet by our power, we unsundered Ascians may raise up one of their fragments to their original office.
Emet-Selch: Ah, but I suppose this in itself bears explaining. So... the names by which you know us are not, in fact, our names.
Emet-Selch: Be it Elidibus or Igeyorhm, all are titles of office. And when an office is vacated, it may be filled by another.
Emet-Selch: Over the eons, I have overseen several changings of the guard among our sundered brethren.
Emet-Selch: And in such instances, the vacant title ordinarily goes to another fragment of the selfsame soul.
Emet-Selch: While it is by no means impossible to raise up wholly unrelated individuals, 'tis we whose fervent entreaties brought forth Lord Zodiark--whose souls He claimed in the beginning--who make the truest servants.

So then, the WoL is Azem in the consideration that because we were able to merge with Ardbert which lead to clarifying the color of the soul that Emet could see, which is like Azems, that makes the WoL Azems sundered soul. Which is where we get the power of the Echo, and the increased version through the Blessing of Light.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Venat is not real and was written by modern people.

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True, but it doesn't mean a character created can not have his/her own soul.
This is especially true with Japanese narration where a character usually have full background story, behave accordingly to the character setting and character setting fits to the civilization and ideology of the period.
In direct contrast, English Comics like Marvel is inferior , etc are weak in character setting and development and character often behave to the plot need instead of character setting
In her case, she is someone be from thousand of years ago and everything she has done fit her civilization and ideology

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The notes within the Dead Ends say otherwise. Meteion is credited with both triggering the world war that decimated world #2 as well as her incessant pestering having caused the existential crisis of world #3 leading to the creation of Ra-la.

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World 2 had a preexisting conflict that used Meteions arrival as justification. Their World War was inevitable. And World 3’s people had already accepted they wanted to die before she came. The reason for her pestering was their answer that existence was pointless, and she hated that answer because of what it meant. If anything, it was Meteion who had the existential crisis, not those who created Ra-La, for them she was a pitiable creature who hadn’t accepted the truth yet.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

The implication that "perfect is bad" is hard to shake off when they show different societies which reached different states of "fulfillment", "enlightenment", "perfection", "immortality", etc. and they all "reached" a catastrophic end (in some cases by nothing more than the power of the writer's pen imo and not a natural progression of events). Not a single one managed to keep living their lives. How can you shake off the implication that reaching such a state is indeed a bad thing with such representation?

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The alternative explanation is that their societies weren’t perfect and instead simply traded one form of suffering for another. They achieved what they thought was perfection, worlds without sadness, pain or loss, when in reality they were just as plagued with suffering as “lesser” races. A perfect society would not kill itself after all. Perfection thus is bad, not because it’s a bad thing in itself, but because it’s an unobtainable goal that one will never achieve. And if one does think they have reached it, then they are wrong.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

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What happens when there’s nothing left to create, nothing left to do to make the star “better”?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

World 2 had a preexisting conflict that used Meteions arrival as justification. Their World War was inevitable. And World 3’s people had already accepted they wanted to die before she came. The reason for her pestering was their answer that existence was pointless, and she hated that answer because of what it meant. If anything, it was Meteion who had the existential crisis, not those who created Ra-La, for them she was a pitiable creature who hadn’t accepted the truth yet.



The alternative explanation is that their societies weren’t perfect and instead simply traded one form of suffering for another. They achieved what they thought was perfection, worlds without sadness, pain or loss, when in reality they were just as plagued with suffering as “lesser” races. A perfect society would not kill itself after all. Perfection thus is bad, not because it’s a bad thing in itself, but because it’s an unobtainable goal that one will never achieve. And if one does think they have reached it, then they are wrong.



What happens when there’s nothing left to create, nothing left to do to make the star “better”?

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Who knows? If they even ever got to the point, maybe they go to a new planet and work towards bettering that one as well. Alas we’ll never know, because a devil sought it fit to end a civilization that had much room to grow and flourish. We could say the same for the sundered no? For all of their preaching of a better tomorrow, what happens when they reach it? Or are we going to say for them it’s an impossibility.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

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But they did stop striving to do better. What are their metrics for what is good for the star? They were going to write off the serpent because it couldn't fly. Because it was not as it was planned to be. But sometimes the most worthwhile innovations and leaps forward come from accidents.

Then there's the situation with the creations that were killing other creations. They decided based on their own preset ideas of what was right that something like that wouldn't be of use to the star. But they didn't consider that may there was something that sort of danger could teach other creatures. We shouldn't be in conflict all the time, but we can grow from it.

They didn't show indication they could think outside the box like this. And so they stopped progressing as a species.

Also....why does everything have to have a use? Why doesn't something useless deserve to also exist?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Who knows? If they even ever got to the point, maybe they go to a new planet and work towards bettering that one as well. Alas we’ll never know, because a devil sought it fit to end a civilization that had much room to grow and flourish. We could say the same for the sundered no? For all of their preaching of a better tomorrow, what happens when they reach it? Or are we going to say for them it’s an impossibility.

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Well obviously once the sundered reaches perfection we’re gonna have to sunder everyone again!

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

Well obviously once the sundered reaches perfection we’re gonna have to sunder everyone again!

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And then it'll be revealed that Hydaelyn isn't actually dead. She faked it to motivate her WoL to go to space, obviously.

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

Well obviously once the sundered reaches perfection we’re gonna have to sunder everyone again!

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So that's what the next 10 year story gonna be.. Sundering 2.0, let's go.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

So that's what the next 10 year story gonna be.. Sundering 2.0, let's go.

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We'll need more shards to visit eventually!

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Originally Posted by linayar

If the sundering is splitting the world, when did she replace one race by another race? To me, it seems more likely that the sundering caused an "evolution" of the Ancients into the existing races, potentially with a mixing with the new life created by Zodiark.

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Yeah, "evolution" but backwards. You seem to have very limited definition of what "killing" is. Let's see what the sundering did:

- shorten one lifespan to probably 1/10 of the original (and that's being generous)
- made them susceptible to diseases etc.
- strip them of creation magic (and magic in general until 3rd calamity)
- revert them back to caveman level of civilization
- probably even cause then to lose their memory of unsundered world and life

This is like cutting a person arms and legs, poison them, and when they died a month later, you still say "I didn't kill them".

And regarding the new life that you hinted as precursor of current races, there's zero evidence about it. The closest we get is mention of creation of lupin beast tribe (from memo in elpis), but considering the lupins are still very much unchanged after 12k years, it's doubtful there's a different races. There's only one race, the Ancients. The only one we know is they who live in Amaurot, but outside of that, it's still the Ancients who populate ethyris.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Again, because the story is told from our point of view, and she is all that to us. Just because she may have done something some people disagreed with in the past, it does not mean other people have to view her in that light.

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If the game isn't that preoccupied in shoving the story's theme on our face all the time, they could have give us a couple npc to give musing or debate about Her actions. Heck, even the scions who usually have some different opinions than the general eorzean population doesn't have anything to say regarding hydaelyn, save for agreeing with Her (as far as I remember).