Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by aabe

Realistically, MCH and BRD are the stars of burst and they are very even with melee in a 2-3 minute run. MNK gets the same padding from elixir wave, I can see a group clearing faust with 2BRD easily especially with a DRG.

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You can't believe this is true, I refuse to believe you do. Stars of burst damage? very even with melee in a 2-3 min fight? If you show me a parse of a bard that is even top 2 in DPS versus savage Faust, I can tell you that you most certainly lost the fight. I can point you to videos of other DPS in that exact fight doing high 1300s and 1400+ DPS. Can you point to a bard , (the master of burst damage and even with other melee) coming even close to that?

As far as padding DPS with AOE, 3 flaming arrows versus 2 DFD in a 3 min fight. They both have their "padding" neither is significantly different from the other.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

You pretty much agreed with everything I said, and you took the quoted part out of context. A Bard dealing 1.1k damage on average in Savage is great , but I agree that other dps do more damage and (situationally) bring more to the table than our support dps does. My Dragoon friend is hitting upwards of 1.4k on good runs, that's pretty exceptional. WITH disembowl, I can manage between 1.1 to 1.2 on a 3 min fight, depending on rng in my opener. So, once again, I think Bard is doomed in a raid setting in the long term (where you no longer need their songs), but they're fine in progression. My personal solution? Give us more optimization support tools, e.g Trick Attack, so we're always in a scenario where we can always speed up the win, not prolong it.

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I reread your post, and you're right. I misunderstood the tone of what you were saying. It makes more sense in context.

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Originally Posted by lordjoosie

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DFD is 250 potency, flaming arrow is 350 potency over 30 seconds. 35 Potency/tick

A single DFD hitting a group of stuff bumps your numbers a lot higher than 3 flaming arrows.


If your group is kiting the adds at all you'll get at most 2 ticks of flaming arrow. I said they were even with melee and you can beat Faust's check with 2 bards most likely. MNK even outdpses DRG even though DRG is another good burst job, because of elixir field.
You're interpreting my point incorrectly. I was saying the DPS required for Faust is lower than what people are saying, DUE TO THE EXTRA DPS THAT SHOWS ON YOUR PARSER FROM HITTING ADDS WITH AOE. BRD can do 1300 there with disembowel, it's not a big deal at all to have two bards.

I have 3 weeks to decide wether stick with bard or change to machinist. I used machinist tonight raid a1 savage.

I hate how clunky and restricted bard is. Machinist has far more freedom. With comparable dps.

Play wise machinist is more ... Hmmm ... Complete than bard. Unfortunately. The only issue they have imo without reload/quick reload. U r under the mercy of rng procs with no way to control, only thing under ur control is to react to them fast.

Not to mention machinist rotation flows nicely. Buffs and reloads line up perfectly together. Bard.... Ggs too many offgcds coming at the same time. It's too messy.

We need some trait that makes iron jaws or empereal arrow without cast... Or dots.... Slapping cast time to everything is just damn lazy design.

Thank God for iron jaws. Otherwise it will be more messy.

I started my XIV journey in 2.0 leveling all of the jobs to 50 first to get a real feel of what jobs I'd like at max level. I found very quickly that I'm not really a fan of the combat system, but playing on BRD with the 2.0 mechanics you escape all of that. What was annoying was now enjoyable. Every BRD I know feels like minded on this.
With the introduction of our new move set from 50-60 the job goes about a huge monumental change, and I feel it's a failure of understanding what we liked about the job.
I fear I won't find something enjoyable, or be forced to play BRDs new rotation with WM. Or be isolated still using the 2.0 mechanics, ignoring the 3.0 ones which is what I'm doing to date. I feel like I push enough DMG just not optimal DMG.
At this rate I know Ill slip into crafting and gathering, ignoring all of the new content coming out. But more likely end playing, which is a shame because my group that I roll with are just starting to function very well together..

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At this rate I know Ill slip into crafting

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Don't worry, they broke crafting too.

My static with me as BRD, a MNK, DRG, and NIN beat Faust in savage a1. I was at 1204 dps which put me about 150dps lower than our MNK and DRG. NIN was at 1120. Our MNK could be even higher but there were weird lag issues in that instance so he wasn't able to execute his opener perfectly which dropped his dps a bit. All I can say is that BRD dps is not an issue here in the faust encounter - if you're not breaking at least 1k as a BRD you're doing something wrong.

Brd dps potential is not an issue. (It somewhat was before WM adjustment).
And if we ignore the fact that SE changes the way BRD was played for the past 2 years which is an issue of its own, but is not related to what bards real dps performance can be
(Although the change forces bards into learning how to play as casters thus dropping average performance of those that still have trouble learning it.)

The issue with bard is the way it plays, with a couple of skills not working well with cast times.
It is absolutely playable and you can reach good numbers with it, but instead of having a streamlined rotation, you need to dodge and work around issues with skills all the time which in itself feels broken.
Some people have fun with that kind of gameplay, some don't and some just can't get over the fact that we'r stuck with WM now.

But I ll definitely not agree on how the bard change was handled.
It shows really bad design to me.
Not only because of the issues I mention above, but it also uses a copy pasted stance from another job, which lowers the option of class choice if you do not like that particular playstyle forced by this stance.
Let alone it being slapped on a job that has skills which will cause trouble with it unlike the other one that was designed around the stance.

Let's be real. SE hates ranged melee DPS. They don't care.

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Originally Posted by aabe

in general BRD is in about the same place relatively as it was in 2.x

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Which then leads to the question of why WM needs the downside of cast times if it is only putting Bards at the same relative point that they were at before.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I want to ask... how do some bard hit 1k+ dps obn Faust on Alex 1 savage? Last night I was attempting Faust with my static and we wipe at 20%. The team have both a blm and a smn so naturally i started off with Foe + BV. I was ilvl 183 using food but no dex pot. Some say my parse is around 850 ish and the rest of the dps are around 1k.

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i parse in at around 1000 to 1100 right now with same ilvl (no ravana weapon) but using the pot might depend on the group since i got a NIN in it and ofc you have to use a good rotaion. still im not great with the new bard right now lets 1.2 is possible as the other showed us XD
the thing is since we are using a buffer grp setup our BLM and SMN are around 1.3-1.4 k so i still feel weak because faust is one thing: its a standing fight its a raidbuffed puppet once the movement starts the number will dropp i guess -.-

as for the casttime thing i think SE thinks we bards run around like idiots the whole fight thats why now we need to blackmage (irony on) plus they cant buff the bard dmg that would be stupid cause we are not dmg dealers (irony off)

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Which then leads to the question of why WM needs the downside of cast times if it is only putting Bards at the same relative point that they were at before.

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Cause it gives BRD something that actually gives them a semblance of scaling that they didn't have before.
Everyone got new stuff sure but BRD has zero scaling. If SE were to have added anything to BRD it would have had to be super OP for it to be where it is right now, because otherwise gear scaling would pull melee far far far way farther ahead. I said this wayyyyy earlier in the thread but buff uptime like MNK GL+DK+TwS, HT+Disembowel, etc. All make it so that, if WM didn't exist, adding 100 ilvls would only put melee and BRD farther and farther apart.

Like to be honest they didn't really have a way to do that with anything besides giving BRD a stance. With the community complaining about how BRD can strafe all over the place for free and never lose damage something like WM should've been expected ESPECIALLY after SE said they'd do something about it a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

But I ll definitely not agree on how the bard change was handled.
It shows really bad design to me.
Not only because of the issues I mention above, but it also uses a copy pasted stance from another job, which lowers the option of class choice if you do not like that particular playstyle forced by this stance.
Let alone it being slapped on a job that has skills which will cause trouble with it unlike the other one that was designed around the stance.

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From the beginning it was just blaring out that it was a rush job. They never even bothered to tweak the animations so the "charge" was with a knocked arrow; instead just 2 seconds of you holding the arrow in the quiver. The mechanical issues of WM combined with the utter uselessness of Warden's in any serious content just reeks of haphazardly slapping something together for the update.

I think that's what irks me the most, that it doesn't feel like BRD got anywhere near the same amount of attention as the other classes.

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Originally Posted by aabe

With the community complaining about how BRD can strafe all over the place for free and never lose damage something like WM should've been expected ESPECIALLY after SE said they'd do something about it a long time ago.

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the reason i cant and wont accept WM ,as it is, is pretty simple actually i played a lot of other mmos before and in all of those are classes that do the same thing bard did before 3.0 and in all those mmos said class is on par with the rest dmgwise and/or supportwise and can still avoid pretty much everything and NOONE was complaining about that.
wow did something to hunter were they have to stop from time to time to get energy and i was ok with that but thats it. i dont want to play melee and i dont want play static classes so bard was the perfect class and now it isnt anymore so ofc im pissed its only normal i would not even mind the casttimes if i could still move with them.

WM sucks, bad.
It's true they gimped you on auto attack, but just don't use WM.

That's the best you can do, not fair, but that's all you got.

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Originally Posted by Kiyyto

WM sucks, bad.
It's true they gimped you on auto attack, but just don't use WM.

That's the best you can do, not fair, but that's all you got.

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well but the simple truth is WM is stronger than playing without it so we basicly dont r´dont have a choice if you want max output

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Originally Posted by yamochan

well but the simple truth is WM is stronger than playing without it so we basicly dont r´dont have a choice if you want max output

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It's a small DPS gain under optimal conditions and totally not worth the frustration, imo.

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Originally Posted by Kiyyto

It's a small DPS gain under optimal conditions and totally not worth the frustration, imo.

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small dps gain?.... far from it.

I agree that BRD HW skills feel rushed , and the animations are "meh" , just lookc around , how cool looking is SMN , DRG , WAR skills are...

now look at BRD , WM reaching arrow animation is lame , Iron Jaws wth is that? , Emp arrow is ok , Warden looks good but the skill is useless , and Sidewinder is dissapointing

SE can do better, hell even FFXI has better WS than FFXIV

http://i.giflike.com/NkmLZV7.gif

tap in and out is the best way i think we discussed that way back


also Sidewinder animation isnt that bad for an instant i rather think iron jaws should look cooler ... maybe like 20% cooler XD

Every time I read this thread title I remember that SouthPark episode when they say "They took our jobs".

"They Broke my Job", "They broke yer jaw?" ><

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Originally Posted by aabe

Cause it gives BRD something that actually gives them a semblance of scaling that they didn't have before.
Everyone got new stuff sure but BRD has zero scaling. If SE were to have added anything to BRD it would have had to be super OP for it to be where it is right now, because otherwise gear scaling would pull melee far far far way farther ahead. I said this wayyyyy earlier in the thread but buff uptime like MNK GL+DK+TwS, HT+Disembowel, etc. All make it so that, if WM didn't exist, adding 100 ilvls would only put melee and BRD farther and farther apart.

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May I have you elaborate on this please? I'm not sure what scaling you're referring to or really how the buffs play in to it. How is this scaling something bards lacked but BLM or SMN didn't? The only scaling issue I see is the growing gap in WD, which WM doesn't help.

Maybe they should make wanderers minuet a opposite of foes requiem as it boost party wide damage for melee

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Originally Posted by Volgera

Every time I read this thread title I remember that SouthPark episode when they say "They took our jobs".

"They Broke my Job", "They broke yer jaw?" ><

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Same here. Every time I read the thread title, I read it as: "Bard, They broke my jerb!" .... "Brurk err jerb!!"

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Originally Posted by yamochan

i rather think iron jaws should look cooler ... maybe like 20% cooler XD

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http://giant.gfycat.com/SeveralDearestFinnishspitz.gif

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

-anim-

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Is.. is he throwing the arrow at the mob?

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

Is.. is he throwing the arrow at the mob?

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He's demoralizing them with slander they caused food poisoning and a nasty updraft from an apparent wind

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Originally Posted by aabe

Cause it gives BRD something that actually gives them a semblance of scaling that they didn't have before.

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I'm not really sure I understand what you're getting at. I don't see how that gives them any scaling they didn't have before. At least, not by my understanding of scaling.

WM is a flat 30% boost. It doesn't give a bigger boost the larger the weapon damage gap is. It's not scaled to how big the gap's going to be.

When WD for melee is 100, Bards will still be 10 behind. When WD for melee is at 110, Bards will still be at 99.

The gap's still going to grow despite WM because part of WM is already spent getting over that gap and the rest is offset by things like Heavy Thrust, NIN venoms, and GL.

Basically, for Bards to remain at the relative point they are now by the end of the expansion, they'll likely need to buff Bard damage a bit more somehow, in order to compensate for the gap.

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On the topic of attack animations: I'm currently using the Star Seeker bow skin from the Lightning event. It doesn't have a quiver. So while some people are at least reaching for an arrow for one and a half seconds, I'm just kinda standing there wiggling my fingers behind my head.

can anyone explain to me why we got that much WD in the first place? it doesnt make much sense to me from just seeing it. would rly help me understandthe other classes better if i knew why BRD and MCH must have less. i mean it cant just be so that we got less dmg than the rest there must be some reason to it right?

also to animation be glad that Star Seeker now at least aims at the target and not in the skys like it did after it got added. XD

but yeah i can accept less fancy animation if the skills are effective.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

can anyone explain to me why we got that much WD in the first place? it doesnt make much sense to me from just seeing it. would rly help me understandthe other classes better if i knew why BRD and MCH must have less. i mean it cant just be so that we got less dmg than the rest there must be some reason to it right?

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Because we have mobility. We can keep 100% uptime while dodging and such.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Because we have mobility. We can keep 100% uptime while dodging and such.

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only that we cant anymore so it makes 0 sense

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Originally Posted by yamochan

only that we cant anymore so it makes 0 sense

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Don't have any numbers for you to give you a real good feel but the amount of DPS you can add with a Foe Rec more than makes up for whatever you would be missing in WD. Bard has the ability to give you an absolute monster increase of DPS just by singing a song so the tradeoff has to be that they do less. Otherwise there would be no point to running anything other than two Bards and two other DPS.

I can tell you from being a caster that with the way the game is scaling now, it's even more noticeable than it was before. What is normally a 3700 Fire IV all of a sudden becomes a 4400 Fire IV. If your group is like mine and runs two casters, that increase is made even more astronomical. Not saying it doesn't suck to feel underpowered compared to other DPS, because it does, but you can't really say too much about playing a job who's main draw was that they enhance the rest of the group. They were never meant to be a standout DPS monster by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

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well ill just say this read some pages back plz we discussed the whole support issue before we dont support the whole group with one song always just a part of it.

support from other classes is also very strong and to bring 2 BRDs makes very little sense. bring a BRD and a MCH well maybe but still not great bring a BRD and a NIN however is a very good enchance group without the LB debuff from dual classes. BRD is no support class it queues up as Dmg Dealer.

So that does still not explain the small WD cause we cant move all time anymore even with swapping in and out of WM and we are behind quite a bit in terms of dmg so closing that cap would be a start instead of making it even bigger as we can see...

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I'm not really sure I understand what you're getting at. I don't see how that gives them any scaling they didn't have before. At least, not by my understanding of scaling.

WM is a flat 30% boost. It doesn't give a bigger boost the larger the weapon damage gap is. It's not scaled to how big the gap's going to be.

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Hey, i am not really an experienced player and rather new to ff14, but wrt to scaling % usually always better after a certain attack point in any game let me give you an example

you have a base skill that does 100% weapon damage
you are currently running around with a weapon which does 50 dmg
your damage output with 1 skill is 50
if you activate WM its a 30% increase so its 50*130% = 65 Damage
wm addition is 15 dmg

Now after a long time of farming you got a base weapon which does 150 damage,
1 skill damage is 150
1 skill with wm is 195
wm addition is 45 dmg

as you can see the stronger your weapon gets the bigger the damage impact of WM becomes, ofc it will always be 30% but its 30% of a bigger base number and as such you got scaling.

the opposite would be for example a venom skill which adds a fixed amount of 35 dmg with each attack. This would deal more damage with a 50 dmg weapon but less with a 150 dmg weapon and would not scale with equipment.

Another thing i alway read in these Forum which feels a bit strange as a beginner, there is always the talk of how only 9 minute parsers are a good estimation and you have to factor out burst phases on bosses and that the bosses in the current contend die to fast to give a proper estimation.
For me that always leaves the question for what do you want to do the damage? to have some nice damge on a stawpuppet or to kill a certain boss as fast as possible.
For me it would be the 2nd so if the fights in the game are shorter than 3 minutes what point is there looking at 9 minute long parsers?

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Because we have mobility. We can keep 100% uptime while dodging and such.

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I don't quite understand this argument though. Summoner has the ability to constantly dps regardless of movement, so why isn't their weapon inherently weaker to their Black Mage counterpart? Also I could see your reasoning back in maybe 2.2, but almost every ex primal, coil (except a few spots like t13 Earthshaker) and dungeons cater to turret style gameplay. Very rarely do I see a melee jump off the boss, and A1/2 savage practically begs you to play endgame like it's Striking Dummy Savage Mode.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I don't quite understand this argument though.

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i dont remember but WD for bows were nerfed in 2.0 ? , because at the time titan HM and turn 1 was all the rage

titan HM being a movement heavy fight ppl wanted brds the most , and turn 1 with ADS ppl wanted 1 bard for silencing and mana song (lack of gear healers went oomp fast :P)

and SE watched how melees were neglected , blm too , SMN always have a spot because rez in combat , virus and eye for eye , not must have but nice to have.

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We currently feel that the bards are a little too strong due to the amount of damage they can do without being impacted that much from the fight.

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.....times have changed eh?

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

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In 2.1 we received our first nerf, 2.2 we received another. I still feel, to this day, they were unwarranted and the only thing I agree was making cross class abilities weaker. Monk was also considered to be the worst job in early 2.0 until people realized GL was almost a 100% upkeep. But yes, times have changed, and there are many mindsets of Bard that no longer apply. I do hope Yoshida-san considers everything Bards are saying, and I just want the job to feel fluid again.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

the amount of DPS you can add with a Foe Rec more than makes up for whatever you would be missing in WD.

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I'd contest that on a couple levels.

Firstly, you won't always have a caster, or even a group. You will need to do quests, and the MSQ and class quests require you to solo quite a bit. If you do roulettes, you don't control your group. Even if you get a caster in roulette, you don't guarantee they're good. My last trial roulette had 2 DRG, 1 SMN, and me as a Bard. The SMN was the lowest DPS, with me only slightly behind one of the DRGs and ahead of the other. If I had my higher WD, I would have been doing even more damage, but the increase to the SMN's damage definitely wouldn't have outweighed my loss. If a BRD is beating a caster by a fair margin already, Foe's wouldn't even have the caster catch up to them, much less "more than make up for it".

Secondly, Foe's only lasts just over a minute from full MP and the MP bar takes about 2.5 minutes to refill in combat, both assuming that you don't refill your MP somehow. This is also assuming you won't have to play TP/MP song for anybody. A weapon damage increase for the Bard would be "always on". A caster will not always have time to cast during Foe's. They may have to move, they may get mechanics dumped on their head. They may be unlucky and get targeted by AOE circles a lot. A caster may not benefit from the full effect of Foe's but a Bard would always benefit from the effect of increased WD. Therefore, the benefit of Foe's is also limited to what time the caster can actually use it.

I'd also argue the main draw of it being to support people. Archers don't have support songs. Bards do. Unfortunately, we don't get the choice of staying as Archers, or being upgraded Archers. If we want to be even remotely useful, we have to be Bard. I rolled Archer because it was mobile ranged DPS. Bard was forced upon me. If there was a split like SMN/SCH where there was a mobile ranged DPS option that doesn't have the support songs, I'd swap in an instant. Also, 4/5 of the new Bard skills are for personal DPS gain only, while the last is just a mostly useless prEsuna.

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Originally Posted by tankie

ofc it will always be 30% but its 30% of a bigger base number and as such you got scaling.

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The problem is that since there isn't a damage buff in the game that adds a flat X to each attack, they're all percentages, every class will have the same "scaling" with weapons getting better. But since Bard weapons have an inherently lower weapon damage than everyone else, WM does nothing to actually fill the gap. Everyone got tools to increase their DPS in some manner, not just Bards. In order for a Bard to stay at the same relative point as they were before, they MUST use WM. They could have just as easily increased Bard weapon damage and not required WM at all and given some nifty new support tool.

This game will forever be balanced around 8 man content^ Not trying to sound harsh here, but other content really doesn't matter as much. I couldn't care less what classes I get matched to in DF dungeons etc.

true, bards will feel their support is less valued once content gets overgeared, but who cares about overgeared content anyways?

Personally I wouldn't be in a static without a) a drg to boost me and b) a blm to boost. can always sing nothing but foes when stuff gets overgeared, and tbh looking at parses bard dps is still great. I really don't care that the blm, mnk and drg in my static out dps me; the boost I give our awesome blm is great and makes up for it.

Looking at a parse and judging the bards contribution by the bards dps alone is a mistake people on this forum seem to keep making.

If bard is still broken it's only due to clutter and qol changes that may or may not come, but it's dps is perfect now.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

This game will forever be balanced around 8 man content^ Not trying to sound harsh here, but other content really doesn't matter as much.

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Except it can be balanced around both. If TP/MP songs don't really have a place outside of progression and Foe's is situational outside of premade groups to ensure you make good use of it, why not move the base damage penalty on Bard weapons to those songs?

That doesn't harm them outside of progression and still doesn't make them OP during progression because they will need to take a hit at some point. If casters do that much damage than Bards that Foes outweighs the damage loss, put the damage reduction during Foes so it's a trade off of extra damage for casters at a temporary hit to the Bard.

Just because something gets balanced for the smallest portion of the game doesn't mean it has to ignore the majority of the game.