o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

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Originally Posted by Ferth

That looks an awful lot like Voodoo Economics, Davorok. And you really don't take into account the devaluation items will experience in a supply heavy economy. You are working with alot of numbers that you are really just pulling out of your ass.

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nah his numbers are actually pretty accurate in that it will generate tons of sales, but it's not taking into account of the devaluation of the gear that is being mass produced due to it being the 'easiest synth" for the rank. it's also not taking into account of npc'ing off 4-500 finished gear is no different than npc'ing 4-500 parts. the same amount of items will be leaving the market via npc as it was before and the only thing flooded will be what people percieve as the easiest synth per level.

the same item not being made and sold will likely be the same type of items not being made and sold whether the changes go in or not.

His numbers also don't take into account rank disparity. On one hand his numbers are conservative (3 items per slot) on the other hand low and midrange gear is going to see a downtrend there (maybe 1-2 items per slot, depending on rate of risk and potential for growth in materia.) And the higher levels seeing significantly more items per slot as higher level characters push to have better and better gear.

But this means that the economy will be incredibly top heavy (it already is, and it's a HUGE problem.)

And this is where my complaint comes in that the changes don't address the real problems... mainly that it is more consistent to earn gil through npcs (causing inflation) than it is to try and earn money from other players(limiting trade and causing rarer items to increase in price dramatically.) and these changes won't really shift that trend.

Basically the items with the greatest demand are always going to be the high end gear, which is not necessarily a bad thing... but it is a problem if the gear in the low and mid levels is so worthless that no one can even effectively make money until they are in the "high level" bracket.

On the surface his numbers seem pretty legit but he's working with alot of hypotheticals (like full servers and constant item prices.) that negate the values of his final numbers.

P.S.

Sorry for the ninja edit but ALSO, what ALL of his information doesn't take into account is all of his projections will occur if they increase the demand for items without effecting the supply side. All of that information happens under materia... and they will happen regardless of if they change crafting at the same time or wait and let the increased demand find its balance.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

That looks an awful lot like Voodoo Economics, Davorok.... alot of numbers that you are really just pulling out of your ass.

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Yes, you may be right about where I got my numbers http://youtu.be/wMctMhMOtrY but I still believe the new system will improve the economy overall if...IF...we see a lot of new players in the future.

I'd still point out that all of your projected numbers take place under the Materia system regardless of the proposed crafting changes. It's the increased demand we need, not necessarily an increase in supply.

I think they can streamline parts to not be full of bloat like they are while fixing the level disparity, requiring some depth on crafting across the board, but having the complexity increase in the higher levels. And the materia system will still see an increase in the amount of final items made, but really in order to meet the increased demand they need to fix the bazaar system and the market wards so they don't create the bottle neck they create now.

If we are getting 200 new inventory slots, then this will help people manage crafting components.

There's less and less reason to justify oversimplifying crafting to the point that there are no components.

As for makign HQ instant success, there was never any justification for that.

Also, how long do you give them before they add Guild Buffs back in?

What use will anyone have for any of the crafting guilds if they don't give you buffs? Nobody will go to Gridania anymore.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Also, how long do you give them before they add Guild Buffs back in?

What use will anyone have for any of the crafting guilds if they don't give you buffs? Nobody will go to Gridania anymore.

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They still sell a small selection of basic mats, and you gotta go there to spend your guild marks. Plus you don't get guild marks unless you do leves in the city that's home to the guild.

Oh, but you don't play the game, so you don't know they made that change.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

They still sell a small selection of basic mats, and you gotta go there to spend your guild marks. Plus you don't get guild marks unless you do leves in the city that's home to the guild.

Oh, but you don't play the game, so you don't know they made that change.

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Mats from guild are generally overpriced and useless
They are removing recipe treatise so you don't even really need guildmarks anymore

Yeah, unless they add something really important to get with guild marks there will be very little reason for crafters to be in any specific town. Which works directly against the change they made to guild mark yielding leves...

I'm still not overly happy with the changes to crafting but everyone else seems to have moved on to other discussions.

lol dam necro's..

This post was never really about the inventory space, but the removal of a layer within crafting.
But yeah it seems odd we get a whole load of things removed then they turn around and give us enough space for it not to be needed really.
Yet we still have the same mind numbing system controlling it.

The mark things is meh till we get some hint at what if anything they plan to do with it.
I just hope we do get something added back.
Oh well...

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Halleluyah!!!
Finally they will allow us to actually craft, and not spend days of hoarding materials just for that stupid missing hempen fent sleeve piece No. 1324 (light blue, with a hint of ochre and yellow spots).

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My thoughts exactly :)

The crafting changes hardly made crafting easier. Instead of making a part for a synth, you are now making an ingot for a synth. No reduction in steps. No faster crafting. In fact, they ADDED a step so that you have to do a separate craft just to color an item. Completely destroyed Alchemist, did nothing for Culinarian which actually needed help, made it impossible to grind out levels, removed tons of options and left us with a generic, limited system... Need I say more? Anyone who has been using this system since its inception that still thinks it was a good thing has brain damage.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Anyone who has been using this system since its inception that still thinks it was a good thing has brain damage.

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Thankfully, this is just your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

The crafting changes hardly made crafting easier. Instead of making a part for a synth, you are now making an ingot for a synth. No reduction in steps. No faster crafting. In fact, they ADDED a step so that you have to do a separate craft just to color an item. Completely destroyed Alchemist, did nothing for Culinarian which actually needed help, made it impossible to grind out levels, removed tons of options and left us with a generic, limited system... Need I say more? Anyone who has been using this system since its inception that still thinks it was a good thing has brain damage.

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True, I have crafted extensively since patch and the old system was better. You have to craft five billion times more now to make anything simply because nothing is a mass-production recipe anymore besides rivets etc. For every skin you get 1 leather. For every successful HQ synth, you get one HQ attempt. It's just a chore now.

When they finally get around to ruining the HQ process, it will be more of a chore: A skill-less grind.

Try leveling goldsmith, we can't even make jewelry thats not dated, we literally got zero new jewelry recipes.

The new recipe is hard to grind on, that is only problem I have now.

Other than that I m fine.

Culinary, Goldsmith and Alchemist will add more recipe later on.

I will give them until 1.20 to see the result. However as it is right now, there is literally nothing changed in the market. High end stuff (except the Felt because of ridiculous material bottleneck) are still more abundant than low end stuff. Sure they haven't revamped much of the low end clothes, but the weapons/tools are basically still that. I didn't believe this has ever been the old crafting's fault, and this just further support my belief.

anyone else think its funny that the op sig has U mad on it and he's complaining lol

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Originally Posted by Alise

The new recipe is hard to grind on, that is only problem I have now.

Other than that I m fine.

Culinary, Goldsmith and Alchemist will add more recipe later on.

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Yes & no. To me, it seems it's much easier to succeed on Synths much higher than your than before. I've been grinding Carpenter, Blacksmithing, & even Goldsmithing just on making ingots, lumber, cutting gems, etc.
If anything leveling Crafts that require mob drops, Leatherworking & sometimes Weaver seems more difficult than before. Simply because that 10% drop rate or w/e it may be, only results in 1 leather or half a thread now.

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Originally Posted by Antonn

Yes & no. To me, it seems it's much easier to succeed on Synths much higher than your than before. I've been grinding Carpenter, Blacksmithing, & even Goldsmithing just on making ingots, lumber, cutting gems, etc.
If anything leveling Crafts that require mob drops, Leatherworking & sometimes Weaver seems more difficult than before. Simply because that 10% drop rate or w/e it may be, only results in 1 leather or half a thread now.

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the leveling higher level crafts now are much easier now due to the auto allotment of points for each class. if you had taken the 2 full days to allot them before the change they are the same as now, but nobody did so due to the hassle it entailed.

it was already known that grinding crafts would be harder now due to the fact it took more materials to grind less than before. you figure even before on blacksmith where you just grind ingots now you could have on low to mid levels then as well. before when you used 4 ore it would make 2.5 ingots. now 4 ore gets you just a little over 1 ingot. that's right at twice the amount of grinding off the same amount of materials and that's not even looking at leather or wood going from 4 to 1 or weaver going from 12 to 1.

I like the way cloths are colored now, the old way was unnecessarily complicated, this new way is much easier, I have enjoyed crafting much more that I can actually make things now, and will love to see more improvements in 1.20

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the leveling higher level crafts now are much easier now due to the auto allotment of points for each class. if you had taken the 2 full days to allot them before the change they are the same as now, but nobody did so due to the hassle it entailed.

it was already known that grinding crafts would be harder now due to the fact it took more materials to grind less than before. you figure even before on blacksmith where you just grind ingots now you could have on low to mid levels then as well. before when you used 4 ore it would make 2.5 ingots. now 4 ore gets you just a little over 1 ingot. that's right at twice the amount of grinding off the same amount of materials and that's not even looking at leather or wood going from 4 to 1 or weaver going from 12 to 1.

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It may take more, but in terms of ore & wood, they're easier to obtain now from gathering. Unlike leather & other mob drops.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I like the way cloths are colored now, the old way was unnecessarily complicated, this new way is much easier, I have enjoyed crafting much more that I can actually make things now, and will love to see more improvements in 1.20

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Lol you have got to be kidding.

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Originally Posted by Malix

anyone else think its funny that the op sig has U mad on it and he's complaining lol

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2 points.. I wasn't mad then an I'm still not, I still cba crafting so nerner. :)
Sig has nothing to do with this topic, please look for a topic more inline with the pic :)

An On topic (really necro threading is getting to be a real habit here lol) All the issues I had with crafting still stand, they just changed the stuff that didn't need it, and left the slow grind that is crafting. :p

As for dye, leave it till we have a whole new system, they say its broken atm, and I don't think they should waste the man power on a temp fix, just get the new system done.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Lol you have got to be kidding.

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no I am not, I like the dye system, now I will say that the dyes just dropping from gather is a bit silly, I would like to see some recipes to make them, but the later half, where I take the finished outfit, and just dye that, instead of having to dye ever matrial for it is so much better.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

no I am not, I like the dye system, now I will say that the dyes just dropping from gather is a bit silly, I would like to see some recipes to make them, but the later half, where I take the finished outfit, and just dye that, instead of having to dye ever matrial for it is so much better.

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They admit the current dye system is just a patch-up job until they fix it. Why?

Colour lock class
Colour lock stat
Less colours than before for every material
All-purpose colour dye is not all-purpose
Why dyeing synth require more base material? What do you do with it?

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

They admit the current dye system is just a patch-up job until they fix it. Why?

Colour lock class
Colour lock stat
Less colours than before for every material
All-purpose colour dye is not all-purpose
Why dyeing synth require more base material? What do you do with it?

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all I like of it is the way it is done compared to the old way, make the item then color it. I do not like any of the other points you made, although requiring more base material does make a little sense, use it to apply the dye to the cloths ;p

Uh you don't use more cloth to dye a piece of cloth that is already made. Are you going to throw away the piece of undyed cloth or what? :P

Both sides are right on the dying thing. It is definitely easier to just dye the piece in one synth instead of dying individual parts. But the recipe to dye the item is retarded requiring more materials. Just make the synth the item and the dye.

Also, spearfishing a pot of dye is lame.

I agree it makes no sense to spearfish pots of dye, they should give Alchemist something to do ya know, I'm hoping they plan to change dyes back to Alchemist when 1.20 comes out and have gathers farm the materials needed to make them.

Also agree that dying an item shouldn't require a base material and why is it that if I dye a HQ item it resets the HQ, this is just stupid.

Dying should be done in the same way as Materia/repairs, select the dye from the inventory and then select the item you want to add it to, no crafting window just a short animation and done.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I agree it makes no sense to spearfish pots of dye, they should give Alchemist something to do ya know, I'm hoping they plan to change dyes back to Alchemist when 1.20 comes out and have gathers farm the materials needed to make them.

Also agree that dying an item shouldn't require a base material and why is it that if I dye a HQ item it resets the HQ, this is just stupid.

Dying should be done in the same way as Materia/repairs, select the dye from the inventory and then select the item you want to add it to, no crafting window just a short animation and done.

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mmm yeah that sounds perfect, and really? I did not know HQs reset to NQs when you dyed them.... thats horrible -.-

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I like the way cloths are colored now, the old way was unnecessarily complicated, this new way is much easier, I have enjoyed crafting much more that I can actually make things now, and will love to see more improvements in 1.20

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all i can say about this is LOL!!!! you like the system more now that by dying a piece of gear it goes from all classes to mage only. any class can wear a felt glove, but if i make it red a mage nor a battle class can figure out how to put it on. that makes the system 100x as complicated as it was not the other way around.

at least before if you wanted a red robe you needed a piece of red cloth. you make the cloth then make the gear. now you make the cloth then make the gear then make more cloth and do the synth again to dye the whole thing and take the chance to lose your hq non colored gear.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

mmm yeah that sounds perfect, and really? I did not know HQs reset to NQs when you dyed them.... thats horrible -.-

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yes, that's part of why people think the new system is retarded. i lost my felt bliaud +2 just because i put a brown dye on it and it turned into nq.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

all i can say about this is LOL!!!! you like the system more now that by dying a piece of gear it goes from all classes to mage only. any class can wear a felt glove, but if i make it red a mage nor a battle class can figure out how to put it on. that makes the system 100x as complicated as it was not the other way around.

at least before if you wanted a red robe you needed a piece of red cloth. you make the cloth then make the gear. now you make the cloth then make the gear then make more cloth and do the synth again to dye the whole thing and take the chance to lose your hq non colored gear.



yes, that's part of why people think the new system is retarded. i lost my felt bliaud +2 just because i put a brown dye on it and it turned into nq.

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you need to read my other post where I said that the only thing I liked was how much easier it was to color, I dont like the stat or class changes that go along with the color swaps nor the fact that dye just comes from gathering

the +1 thing, I am sure will be fixed, that sounds more like a mistake on their end

Basically it still fails is what you're saying.

A lot of fail ideas got the green light with the "item system revamp" of patch 1.19, as enumerated in this thread countless times over, long before the fact.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Basically it still fails is what you're saying.

A lot of fail ideas got the green light with the "item system revamp" of patch 1.19, as enumerated in this thread countless times over, long before the fact.

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I like most of the recipe changes from 1.9 consolidating everything was a good idea, but the dying is all screwy

I am looking forward to 1.20 when they remove the old recipes and items completely

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I am looking forward to 1.20 when they remove the old recipes and items completely

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I just hope they adjust the leves and quests that still require the old recipes. I just did my rank 20 Armorer quest, and I would've failed had I not had some copper nuggets in my inventory.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I like the way cloths are colored now, the old way was unnecessarily complicated, this new way is much easier, I have enjoyed crafting much more that I can actually make things now, and will love to see more improvements in 1.20

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I like most of the recipe changes from 1.9 consolidating everything was a good idea, but the dying is all screwy

I am looking forward to 1.20 when they remove the old recipes and items completely

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now which one is it? is the coloring better now or is it screwey? you can't get your own arguments straight. at least if you can show a point of how dying now is easier at all you would have the point.

dying before = make the dyed material then make the item

dying after = make the item then make more material to dye, look to see if it changes which class can use it, then dye the item by adding additional mats and the dye.

the dying process should have been what materia melding is and adding materia should be a synth instead. dying should have been put an undyed item in with a dye and a distilled water or something and been done just like adding materia is now. 100% success rate on just adding color to a gear, but all colors should be available on all gear and not one set of gloves is only good for a class if it is one certain color.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

now which one is it? is the coloring better now or is it screwey? you can't get your own arguments straight. at least if you can show a point of how dying now is easier at all you would have the point.

dying before = make the dyed material then make the item

dying after = make the item then make more material to dye, look to see if it changes which class can use it, then dye the item by adding additional mats and the dye.

the dying process should have been what materia melding is and adding materia should be a synth instead. dying should have been put an undyed item in with a dye and a distilled water or something and been done just like adding materia is now. 100% success rate on just adding color to a gear, but all colors should be available on all gear and not one set of gloves is only good for a class if it is one certain color.

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I like how the dying is now, you make the item, then dye it, instead of having to dye 90% of the material to make it.

I do not like the fact that dye is not crafted, nor that it changes who can wear it once the item is dyed

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

I like how the dying is now, you make the item, then dye it, instead of having to dye 90% of the material to make it.

I do not like the fact that dye is not crafted, nor that it changes who can wear it once the item is dyed

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ok let's use your own words again and tell me how you aren't contradicting yourself.

1. you don't like the dye is gathering only.
2. you don't like that it takes extra mats to dye afterwards.
3. you don't like that it's an additional synth after you complete the item.
4. you don't like that you can lose the hq item and revert to nq when just adding color to it.
5. you don't like that by dying the item you dye changes class that can use it.

what is it again that you do like about how it is done now?

now compare it to before.

1. you made the materials and they were colored when they were made.
2. the dye WAS crafted.
3. it took the same number of synths whether the item was dyed or not.
4. dying was done while making the finished item so the hq status wasn't lost.
5. changing colors did not change the stats nor class requirements.

using your own things you have said you disliked about the new system and the fact they were more to your liking on the old one is what i figured to begin with.

if you wanted to make dying a proper system then it would be nothing more than adding the first materia. you select the gear and pick the color you want it and the system does it for you without changing stats nor class requirements. you could then make any piece of gear any color you wanted. dying an item should not remove the hq status on the gear nor should you forget how to equip a glove just because you put some red dye on it.

why are you trying to make this an argument when there is nothing to argue about -.-

1 no I dont, but this is temp and will be changed
2 that I honestly dont care about, it is one extra cloth most of the time
3 again, dont care, another chance to skill up, but if they made this like how Materia is done, that is cool too
4 no I dont, but again as 1, it will be changed/fixed
5 same as 1&4 nope dont like it, but will be fixed

coloring is simpler now, that is what I like