Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

I don't see how anyone could complain how such a system would be too much like FFXI.

In FFXI, jobs had a few choices of weapons, but not all.

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I was commenting on how the game seems to be designed to be completely different from FFXI :P

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I was commenting on how the game seems to be designed to be completely different from FFXI :P

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I don't think it was designed intentionally to be different. I think the difference came about incidentally.

Given that 'classes' are just weapon-specialists, the job system could allow people to have a lot of freedom. If you can switch classes/weapons while still having the same job, then this means players could swap weapons in combat.

For example, in FFXI, you could use a crossbow/dagger as a thief and switch between the two very conveniently.

There's no reason the armory system should restrict such freedom.

The job system is meant to strike a balance in gameplay so they can develop content around it. If they allow a given class to specialize in more than one job then they have done nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Mack

The job system is meant to strike a balance in gameplay so they can develop content around it. If they allow a given class to specialize in more than one job then they have done nothing at all.

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I respectfully submit that the opposite is true. If the Development Team just makes a Job a single specialization of a Class, they truly have done nothing at all except given a Class more abilities.

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Originally Posted by Mack

The job system is meant to strike a balance in gameplay so they can develop content around it. If they allow a given class to specialize in more than one job then they have done nothing at all.

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unless each of those jobs are unique to that class
and each job should have a seperate role

while everyone is saying that if a certain class could unlock have more job branches than another class, I don't see why you are even trying to make that a point dealing with balancing. People play the job for the job, not the class at that point.

I just hope this really takes the emphasis away from "classes" to begin with because jobs are what FF is really made of anyways... I don't think the classes we have now should have much more respect and be considered more than "placeholders" for THE REAL THING.

And yes, maybe I am biased towards what they've tried to do in order to make FFXIV unique... but to me thats why the game is where it is right now... losing more and more people (for good reason), so hopefully they really understand the opportunity they have to get back on track and go really big with the Job System.

(PS: At the same time though in all honesty, no matter what they do now, it won't really bring back people who left the game by now anyways... FFXIV missed it's mark, and it's time of release... people are looking forward to other things by now, sadly for SE)

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

I don't think it was designed intentionally to be different. I think the difference came about incidentally.

Given that 'classes' are just weapon-specialists, the job system could allow people to have a lot of freedom. If you can switch classes/weapons while still having the same job, then this means players could swap weapons in combat.

For example, in FFXI, you could use a crossbow/dagger as a thief and switch between the two very conveniently.

There's no reason the armory system should restrict such freedom.

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I can't believe Vesperia is on my side.


The Job system was meant to bring back nostalgia and to enforce a specific role. But no role, or job, has ever been locked to a specific weapon in FF.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I respectfully submit that the opposite is true. If the Development Team just makes a Job a single specialization of a Class, they truly have done nothing at all except given a Class more abilities.

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Its actually more like a Gladiator will because a really good tank within its skill set. The entire point is so they can balance the battle system (dungeons and whatever else) around the job system and make it a challenge, if they make it even more open ended they have no nothing essentially.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

unless each of those jobs are unique to that class
and each job should have a seperate role

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Ok this I can see possible.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I can't believe Vesperia is on my side.


The Job system was meant to bring back nostalgia and to enforce a specific role. But no role, or job, has ever been locked to a specific weapon in FF.

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Im not on your side. Youre on my side.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Im not on your side. Youre on my side.

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The dark side is good =) we have cookies, milk and red mage lancers.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

The dark side is good =) we have cookies, milk and red mage lancers.

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lol rdm lancer's

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Originally Posted by Firon

lol rdm lancer's

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What's so funny about that?

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

What's so funny about that?

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Indeed. It means that they can hit you from further away with an Enfire-covered spear than with the standard Enfire-covered rapier.

They are just set in their ways.

Some people simply can't be told, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

The dark side is good =) we have cookies, milk and red mage lancers.

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lol. i popped in here to see what was going on. rdm lancer it is. i was wondering what you have all been up to in here.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I can't believe Vesperia is on my side.


The Job system was meant to bring back nostalgia and to enforce a specific role. But no role, or job, has ever been locked to a specific weapon in FF.

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III & V limited most jobs to a particular weapon type.
X-2 limited all jobs to a particular weapon type.
Most FFs locked characters to specific weapon types.

The common element of the job system is not the tactics style mix-and-match, but the ability to change from one job to another without losing progress in other jobs.

I'm definitely gonna be a Dark Knight that uses shields! Hell I might even dual-wield Shields for the extra DEF to balance out my poor DEF with my OP ATK

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Originally Posted by Hellsoul-Sama

I'm definitely gonna be a Dark Knight that uses shields! Hell I might even dual-wield Shields for the extra DEF to balance out my poor DEF with my OP ATK

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In before "OMG DRK shuld uze 2H sowrd and sycthe onry!!1!!!!one!".

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Originally Posted by Hellsoul-Sama

I'm definitely gonna be a Dark Knight that uses shields! Hell I might even dual-wield Shields for the extra DEF to balance out my poor DEF with my OP ATK

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Only as long as you get to throw one of your shields like Captain America for serious spike damage.

:p

Don't knock dual shields till you play Circle of Doom. Best Weapon Combo of any game. Dual Wielding Shields.

rdm+lnc = double paper. Rdm being less paper than a lnc. Lnc's should do more damage for the amount they get hit.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

III & V limited most jobs to a particular weapon type.
X-2 limited all jobs to a particular weapon type.
Most FFs locked characters to specific weapon types.

The common element of the job system is not the tactics style mix-and-match, but the ability to change from one job to another without losing progress in other jobs.

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The only numbered FF's that had an actual job system were: I, III, V, X-2.

Other games only touched upon elements of classes without every actually making any of the player characters into those said classes. While X-2 could, admittedly, be only a debatable part of the numbered series, that still leaves III as the last FF to restrict jobs to no cross-skills.

That was a heck of a long time ago.

Except for those mentioned above, FF Tactics practically 'is' the traditional Job system. They pulled the system out of the series and made a side-series of games based entirely around it.

Weapon locking is a minor aspect of the Job system, it only happens as a side effect of what they're creating. The only reason it's come up as more important in XIV is because of the Armory system, which is another off shot.

So, for the last 20 years, the Job system has been about mixing different jobs to form one character, every time it's been used. In those FF's since III where the Job system wasn't directly used, only IV and VI didn't allow heavy character customization; every game since has let you basically 'cross-class' your characters into whatever you want them to be.

The common element across them all may not be mix-and-match, but it is used in a good 75% of the games to date, which should say something.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

The only numbered FF's that had an actual job system were: I, III, V, X-2.

Other games only touched upon elements of classes without every actually making any of the player characters into those said classes. While X-2 could, admittedly, be only a debatable part of the numbered series, that still leaves III as the last FF to restrict jobs to no cross-skills.

That was a heck of a long time ago.

Except for those mentioned above, FF Tactics practically 'is' the traditional Job system. They pulled the system out of the series and made a side-series of games based entirely around it.

Weapon locking is a minor aspect of the Job system, it only happens as a side effect of what they're creating. The only reason it's come up as more important in XIV is because of the Armory system, which is another off shot.

So, for the last 20 years, the Job system has been about mixing different jobs to form one character, every time it's been used. In those FF's since III where the Job system wasn't directly used, only IV and VI didn't allow heavy character customization; every game since has let you basically 'cross-class' your characters into whatever you want them to be.

The common element across them all may not be mix-and-match, but it is used in a good 75% of the games to date, which should say something.

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FF I did not have a job system. Characters could not switch classes freely.

Ignoring FFX-2 also implies ignoring the Tactics series.

My point, through this thread, is that the argument must be made on the merits of the proposed system, not on the precedent set by other games in the series.

Then the argument at the moment is currently invalid. We don't 'know' anything about the proposed system... only that it's a Job system to work alongside the Armory system. We can't say what is good or bad for something that has no basis.

Which is exactly why this whole thread has been about what we 'want' to see: freedom of character development.

There's no point in worrying about how to balance such a system, that's what the Devs are around for, and what it is their job to do. They won't create something they don't believe they have any chance of balancing, or which doesn't begin at least remotely balanced, no matter how much we argue for it. Yet if we don't argue for it, there's less chance that they'll implement anything even remotely similar... no matter how much it may have been used in Final Fantasy games to date.

The FF team is not the same as it used to be, and the newer installments to the series reflect that clearly; we can't expect anything from the past from them.

If we want it, we must make it clear.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

Then the argument at the moment is currently invalid. We don't 'know' anything about the proposed system... only that it's a Job system to work alongside the Armory system. We can't say what is good or bad for something that has no basis.

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Let me rephrase...
Cairdeas proposes that jobs not be restricted to a single class.
His arguments in favor of such a move should be focused on the merits of his proposal, not on the precedent set within the series. Precedent is not useful in this case because for every example there is a counterexample.

I like the idea of freedom. It makes for a more interesting game. But, it also increases the complexity and may make balancing the game difficult. And while I was initially fully in favor of Cairdeas' thoughts, when he started using examples of previous games, my own experience with the series has shown that the more enjoyable installments had less freedom in character development. My issue with his arguments, then, is that they have turned me against the idea which he is arguing for.

What it comes down to for me, now, is that whichever path SE takes, either can be done well, or done badly. I want to see it done well.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

I like the idea of freedom. It makes for a more interesting game. But, it also increases the complexity and may make balancing the game difficult. And while I was initially fully in favor of Cairdeas' thoughts, when he started using examples of previous games, my own experience with the series has shown that the more enjoyable installments had less freedom in character development. My issue with his arguments, then, is that they have turned me against the idea which he is arguing for.

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I believe I myself have offered logical and forward-looking arguments that show that restricting one Class to a single Job (or two or three) creates more balance problems than not restricting them. Cairdeas may be playing the role of Passionate Historian in this debate. I'm playing the Actuary.

If my arguments have not been sound, please let me know.

So now they want to add "Jobs" (as an option, I hope), add auto-attack (also as an option, I hope) and abolish the Physical leveling system (which will eliminate the ability to distribute your stat points??)

Distributing my stat point and costomizing my class to use any abilitiy I desire is going to be taken away??

If I don't convert to the job system, then what??

It makes me an outcast?

I'm fine with the outcast job =P

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

So now they want to add "Jobs" (as an option, I hope), add auto-attack (also as an option, I hope) and abolish the Physical leveling system (which will eliminate the ability to distribute your stat points??)

Distributing my stat point and costomizing my class to use any abilitiy I desire is going to be taken away??

If I don't convert to the job system, then what??

It makes me an outcast?

I'm fine with the outcast job =P

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No, none of the existing customization will be taken away.
If you don't equip a job, you keep the existing class-ability mix and match.
If you equip a job, some ( but not all ) cross-class abilities will not be permitted.

Instead of assigning stat points based on physical level, you assign them based on class rank. You still have the option of assigning them.

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

So now they want to add "Jobs" (as an option, I hope)

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Yes, for party set ups and proficiency to go up against more rough battles and to give uniqueness to certain roles.

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add auto-attack (also as an option, I hope)

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Not an option, I'm afraid. Stamina will be eliminated and it will switch over to auto-attack.

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and abolish the Physical leveling system (which will eliminate the ability to distribute your stat points??)

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Yes and no. The formulas will be reworked and simplified resulting in a lighter, but more potent distribution of attributes. Of course, this is only an assumption, but it's a safe one. Two things are known though. You'd be able to distribute based on your class rank (basically combining physical with rank) and attributes will be reworked, but to simplify them, as they say, should result in them being more potent and the pool shrinking. Even though that last part isn't in their words, it's safe to say that is what is in store.

Thanks for the reply guys.

All I can say is that I seriously hope SE looks at this thread and sees all of the commotion and pressure to make a proper job system, cause if they mess up, the forums will explode...

hear that SE? Take this golden opportunity to actually provide some life to FFXIV... don't fail this miserably and just give us another reason to leave FFXIV again... this time for good. lol

Does anyone know which page the Community Rep's response is? Or is able to quote it for those curious just for that? :p

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Spoke to the dev. team to try and wrangle some more details regarding the upcoming job system. The current thinking is to have one job for one class. So for example, if you are a gladiator, the job you could unlock would be paladin, etc. Right now, we can't give any further details about the possibility of having multiple jobs per class.

To try and stave off the coming flood of "So if gladiator becomes paladin, then what will xyz class unlock?" You'll have to stay tuned for more details in the future!

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Here you go. Page 81. Post #801. Or follow the link in the quote.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Here you go. Page 81. Post #801. Or follow the link in the quote.

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I don't understand that quote. Why only have 1 job per each class? It doesn't make much sense. If there's only going to be one job, then they should just add skills to the class. The only way jobs would be viable for different party play is to have different ways to play it.

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Originally Posted by Asmeret

I don't understand that quote. Why only have 1 job per each class? It doesn't make much sense. If there's only going to be one job, then they should just add skills to the class. The only way jobs would be viable for different party play is to have different ways to play it.

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In that quote, Bayohne is referring to unlocking jobs. It's still unclear whether we'll be able to use the jobs with other classes.

As to why only 1... probably to get things released ASAP. The phrase "current thinking" suggests to me that they aren't ruling out more for the future.

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In that quote, Bayohne is referring to unlocking jobs. It's still unclear whether we'll be able to use the jobs with other classes.

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Actually you're just in denial. Bayhone's post clearly states that its on job per class and he even gave an example of Gladiator unlocking Paladin (i.e., Gladiator specializes as Paladin) and he even went on to say there is nothing planned with regards to job specialization on different classes, the typical response you would expect from SE. Job are only specializations, so it will take Gladiator and make it a much better tank and call it Paladin (it will do this by tweaking its stats most likely and giving it access to job specific abilities), it will do the same with Marauder and make it a much better DD and maybe call it Warrior, etc. They are separating overworld party/solo play from party dungeon play. At first I thought its a good idea now I don't even care.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Spoke to the dev. team to try and wrangle some more details regarding the upcoming job system. The current thinking is to have one job for one class. So for example, if you are a gladiator, the job you could unlock would be paladin, etc. Right now, we can't give any further details about the possibility of having multiple jobs per class.

To try and stave off the coming flood of "So if gladiator becomes paladin, then what will xyz class unlock?" You'll have to stay tuned for more details in the future!

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Originally Posted by Mack

Actually you're just in denial. Bayhone's post clearly states that its on job per class and he even gave an example of Gladiator unlocking Paladin (i.e., Gladiator specializes as Paladin) and he even went on to say there is nothing planned with regards to job specialization on different classes, the typical response you would expect from SE. Job are only specializations, so it will take Gladiator and make it a much better tank and call it Paladin (it will do this by tweaking its stats most likely and giving it access to job specific abilities), it will do the same with Marauder and make it a much better DD and maybe call it Warrior, etc. They are separating overworld party/solo play from party dungeon play. At first I thought its a good idea now I don't even care.

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Is there a quote other than this one that you're referring to? Because I haven't read it.

And to accuse me of being in denial when I really don't care whether we can use jobs on other classes or not is senseless. I'm not saying it's not true, I'm saying SE hasn't addressed the question. Show me a dev post that proves me wrong.

1 job per 1 class

and 1 class per 1 job

ok, this game is not going anywhere better

You're reading it like you wanna read it and not like its written. Bayhone said, in the one you quoted above, that a single class will unlock a single job, meaning one job per class. Him saying, "Right now, we can't give any further details about the possibility of having multiple jobs per class." Pretty much saying there currently is no possibility of that happening. We'll see when its released I guess, sorry for saying you're in denial forget I said that I don't care to start a fight about this. But yea, guess we'll find out soon.

I'm making myself sound like a broken record, but ...

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Originally Posted by Sorel

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

The current thinking is to have one job for one class.

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The word "for" is too imprecise. Does "for" mean "unlock" or does it mean "available to"?? The implications of each are very different.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

So for example, if you are a gladiator, the job you could unlock would be paladin, etc.

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This sentence seems to indicate the the word "for" in the previous sentence meant "unlock".

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Right now, we can't give any further details about the possibility of having multiple jobs per class.

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Again, "having" is too imprecise a word. Does "having" mean "unlocking" or does it mean "playing as"??

Simply put, Bayohne's post requires clarification that only the Community and/or Development Team can provide. Until then, this topic is still very debatable.

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