XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The MSQ is basically single-player. :p

It would be interesting to see MSQ solo duties reworked to take into account your current job. I want to say that there are at least a few of them that have enough action going on that you could be slotted in as a tank, healer, or DPS, rather than being treated as a generic omni-role.

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Thing is, I don't think it would be all that difficult to have done that. Yes it would require some additional work, but not a lot all things considered.

Picture something like the level 76 instance where you fend of Sineaters in Lakeland. At the start, Alphinaud and Alisaie are both with you, but one splits off after the first fight with a sineater. If you are a tank or DPS, Alisaie runs off to help other soldiers while Alphinaud stays with you and heals the injured soldiers along the route. If you are a healer, Alphinaud's the one who runs off, and you have to heal injured soldiers before attacking the sineaters. Later when the large Kubiru comes around, if you're a DPS or Healer, Thancred jumps in to tank the boss. If you're a tank, he stays out of the fight and you have to tank the boss.

Little things like that could go a long way to enhancing the MSQ experience in general.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Little things like that could go a long way to enhancing the MSQ experience in general.

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These are amazing ideas, honestly. The more game attempts to immerse a player into their role during MSQ, the better.

As much as people meme about that WHM level 50 "heal the tree" job quest, it made me feel like a genuine healer. It is sad that the best thing we got in Endwalker (besides the mandatory class quest line) was a line something like: "Oh, you are a healer? That's nice." And that's it. At least in SB we got a 3rd answer option in an important MSQ cutscene. Miss those.

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Originally Posted by NYCLouisGamer

But virtually all other MMO games also have your main character as the "hero", regardless of role. Yet, they still are able to keep the classic trinity design. The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

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Almost no other MMO puts you as this singularly powerful almost demigod like being in the eyes of the world around you, sure you are that powerful in most MMO’s but taking WOW for example WOW’s story functionally makes full sense if every expansion was completed by a different adventurer, there is no connecting thread of the warrior of light/hero of eorzea etc as this super powerful being that can functionally do anything

That whole fantasy falls apart if the WOL is an enforced sylphie by class design

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Almost no other MMO puts you as this singularly powerful almost demigod like being in the eyes of the world around you, sure you are that powerful in most MMO’s but taking WOW for example WOW’s story functionally makes full sense if every expansion was completed by a different adventurer, there is no connecting thread of the warrior of light/hero of eorzea etc as this super powerful being that can functionally do anything

That whole fantasy falls apart if the WOL is an enforced sylphie by class design

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It doesn't help that in WoW we are relatively strong, by BFA we're one of the standing military commanders of our respective factions, we've killed gods and major universe threatening monsters, but it's always been WITH an army at our back, a lot of our work is building that army during an expansion, our charisma, our renown, our planning has lead to each of these victories.

In XIV all of that is broken down to be shared amongst the scions, and the WoL is the brawn and might. So when translated to gameplay, in WoW, we're part of a whole that hinges on us being a war vet that knows their way around conflict, we're not all powerful, we're experienced. The WoL being all powerful means the game has to feel like this for the sake of a power fantasy that doesn't make sense given how heros of the same caliber in other FF games still HAD TO FIGHT WORLD MOBS THAT COULD KILL THEM.

We. Need. Our. World. To. Scale. Properly.

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

These are amazing ideas, honestly. The more game attempts to immerse a player into their role during MSQ, the better.

As much as people meme about that WHM level 50 "heal the tree" job quest, it made me feel like a genuine healer. It is sad that the best thing we got in Endwalker (besides the mandatory class quest line) was a line something like: "Oh, you are a healer? That's nice." And that's it. At least in SB we got a 3rd answer option in an important MSQ cutscene. Miss those.

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In regards to instances against pseudo "bosses" like the fight against Zenos in Stormblood, something you could also do is have other characters helping you. If you're a DPS, they will run out of HP and be forced to retreat before they can do much. If you're a healer, you can keep them healthy and protect them long enough for them to pull off their own powerful attacks, and if you're a tank, you can intercept tethers that would otherwise kill a DPS or healer player to save those characters so that they don't need healing to pull of their mini limit breaks.

Square Knee-capping Jobs consistently with the only solution given to players who derive joy from playing the Jobs they Love being " Just go play Ultimate " doesn't cut it. The emphasis on Combo-Compression isn't even the main issue or solution... as Jobs have been streamlined in numerous ways before with no return of any noteworthy substance.

Oversimplifying Job-Gameplay doesn't even address any meaningful issue. Button-Bloat is better tackled with careful specific Job changes vs universally copy pasting the same solutions over every Job i.e think Combo Compression as 1 example, as if our Gameplay isn't homogenized enough. Zero proof that Job simplifications were ever required to create certain mechanics. Simpler Job-designs doesn't equal better Fight designs. The assumption of simplifying Jobs to create space for something new is wishful thinking, as some been waiting for years with nothing to show for what Square has erased. The only thing I see this solving is a near-non-issue aimed at players who wish to make their MSQ & Roulette experiences to be that much lazier and have no passion to master anything Job-wise.

Currently, Casual PvE combat content i.e anything before Extreme difficulty has zero meaningful Enrages its all faceroll. Thus? Square can easily add complexity without negatively impacting players only wishing to engage with casual gameplay or content and that's by making Job complexity completely Optional. This can be achieved without over bloating Skill-Kits even without heavy reworks. Keeping players who wish to press buttons however they like exactly where they are, while granting Players who wish to express Job Mastery and Pressing buttons in certain manners beyond what the Game asks of them to do? a rewarding Feedback Loop in not just Ultimate, but All PvE combat content.

The added issue of simplified Job-Gameplay, is Square giving zero incentives for players to improve. All the way from Lv1 to the end of Endwalker, nothing in it's Casual level content encourages players to improve in a meaningful useful manner until they are actually required to learn any proper basics i.e usually the first Extreme. Making or keeping most of this content at easy + making the Jobs easier? results in players being conditioned to wanting everything to be nothing but easy both the content and the Jobs. Suddenly a whiff of hardship is a burden to heavy to bare... Cause that's how Square has treated the player-base for so long - Like a bunch of Babies. This is a big reason to never expect Mechanics to be made more difficult nor to propose as a solution as this only applies to Ultimate of which isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Every simplification can't be labeled Quality of Life (QOL) either, as many changes ultimately removes the margain of error to do that tiny bit of extra players derive fun out of doing. Square rather deletes this with no sign of stopping. When I see players who main their Jobs with a passion... completely quitting Endwalker, even refusing to do the current Raid tier or Ultimates? it doesn't actually negatively hurt Square's wallet no. But, there's something off about beating the Passion our of players who used to love their Jobs... as if this somehow is a positive towards XIV beyond just making it a retirement home for MMO players.

- Optimized Comfiness is Not synonyms with Improved Job-Gameplay
- Parsing Laziness and Forced Casualism isn't Either

What plenty of players desire after so many simplifications? Firstly, is for it to stop. Secondly, to give something back as the bare minimum after to so long. Simplify, Easier, Homogonize, Streamline- give something back. Some flare some nuance something... not even in the form of extra buttons, something beyond this bare-bones Job-gameplay and somehow that's to much to ask. It's Taboo to desire or Elitism or it burdens players experience somehow because it's more important to appeal to the players who are passionless about Job-Gameplay, in fact? it's of utmost importance? to make easier first, make it as Souless, Thoughtless and Passionless as we can make it.

That's never been how I viewed XIV more then in Endwalker which is a damn shame, mhm...

Combo compression has the merit to leave room to introduce more abilities and things to bloated toolkits. While they can definitely make toolkits more engaging (they have been in the past after all), it's still a good solution not to have half the toolbar dedicated to a single combo. Combos are dumb to begin with anyway, especially if they're not branching or proccing.

Now, if SE is actually interested into shifting the balance back onto job intricacy a little, I'm not exactly on copium.

Again, combo compression would only be good in a case where it's an opt in feature, and wouldn;t make jobs more diverse. It would just be dumbing down an already bad case of simplicity.

It turns a bad case of simplicity into something similarly simple, so yes, in vacuum, it dumbs it down even further (kinda feels like subtracting from a null quantity already to me tbh so not completely convinced about the dumbing down part), but besides it, frees up at least 2 or 3 hotbar slots for something else. Something else and new by definition would add more to the job. Will it be diverse and intricate enough? Onus is on the devs to make it so.

I'm a little confused at the will to defend combos (that don't branch or proc) like if it was something actually valuable we want to keep, even at the cost of freeing more room for other things.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

The assumption of simplifying Jobs to create space for something new is wishful thinking, as some been waiting for years with nothing to show for what Square has erased. The only thing I see this solving is a near-non-issue aimed at players who wish to make their MSQ & Roulette experiences to be that much lazier and have no passion to master anything Job-wise.

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You can repeat this a million times and people are still gonna be making posts about blindly removing things, at this point I'm convinced most job change posts are just self sabotage, or trying to sabotage other peoples fun thinking they know better.