Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If people could make and maintain this as the goal of a given thread, maybe these arguments could finally stop beating around the bush and think-tank something useful. It seems like 90% of any given thread is either the promotion of a preference or beating common sense into those who believe that their preference and the actual game align when they do not. Rarely do they try to take the big picture and try to align the actual game with something that better serves a larger portion while alienating little to none of the population. Admittedly, though, that's really tough to do.

I would LOVE to see mitigation be more engaging. At that point it becomes a nuanced tradeoff even in rotational skills, rather just an arsenal of bonus CDs, DPS could end up a whole lot more engaging, too. That may be beyond the current team though, or at least its assumed value of its development time necessary.

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Yeah. I do think it is tough to do though.

I agree. I would love mitigation to be more engaging. I also feel it there's a good chance it would make DPS more engaging as well. The problem I feel is two-fold. One, I don't think it aligns with SE's goals of keeping tanking and healing easy for new players because I see newer tanks having trouble with passive mitigation (although it might just be they think they need to save their cooldowns). Two, it would require a huge rework of how bosses work and the tanking jobs themselves.

How I see tanks in ff14 is that the original purpose of dps stance was more for singular questing and existing in the overworld and not taking an hour to kill a mob. Naturally the community has since latched unto off-role dps as a required function of the game. And i don't blame them one bit really, there isn't anything to do after threat is maintained and a tank buster is mitigated.

The direction I hope square goes is to leave dps stances as an overworld mechanic and to add more engagement and effectiveness in the form of interesting/and or utility combos. Thinking things like, a combo finisher that would make the next 5 instances of damage on a boss not your own deal additional potency. Actively spending gauge to implement a more powerful armorbreak, or grant party members buffs. Things to do that net more group damage or survival while being intuitive with traditional tanking.

This thread is a joke. In dungeons on big pulls, Tank stance all day. Anything else Halone x1-2 on opener then swap to sword oath and go bananas. I cant be the only one here that doesnt have any issues keeping aggro and mitigating dmg in dps stance cmon lol. And if you do then why would you complain instead of trying further better yourself on your role. Shitter tanks you come accross in DF dont represent all of us. This is a dps centric game get over it lol.

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

How I see tanks in ff14 is that the original purpose of dps stance was more for singular questing and existing in the overworld and not taking an hour to kill a mob

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It was the case at 2.0 launch where stance dancing wasn't really so popular. Mostly a practice from top raiders but it wasn't really the norm.
In 3.0, the meta evolved into a more dps centric gameplay, both due to the harsh dps checks in gordias and organically from the class design (having more dps oriented actions).
And really it's not a bad thing, it does make the tank role more exciting but created a pretty big gap in player skills.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It was the case at 2.0 launch where stance dancing wasn't really so popular. Mostly a practice from top raiders but it wasn't really the norm.
In 3.0, the meta evolved into a more dps centric gameplay, both due to the harsh dps checks in gordias and organically from the class design (having more dps oriented actions).
And really it's not a bad thing, it does make the tank role more exciting but created a pretty big gap in player skills.

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I think SE was trying to close that Gap and as a result the destroyed tank balance it's the main reason why many tanks are just rolling dps or no longer playing.

I hear dpa queues are 20+ mins which is far worse then HW even in it's deadzone.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It was the case at 2.0 launch where stance dancing wasn't really so popular. Mostly a practice from top raiders but it wasn't really the norm.
In 3.0, the meta evolved into a more dps centric gameplay, both due to the harsh dps checks in gordias and organically from the class design (having more dps oriented actions).
And really it's not a bad thing, it does make the tank role more exciting but created a pretty big gap in player skills.

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It is a bad thing when you side line one tank and make the other two the meta, how is that not a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Faeon

It is a bad thing when you side line one tank and make the other two the meta, how is that not a bad thing?

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Isn't that more on the devs for not making encounters or the job more prevalent?

I don't think players should be blamed on an underutilized job.

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

I don't think players should be blamed on an underutilized job.

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They should though. All tanks are equally viable for any end-game content ever since 2.1. What happens is that the top 1% players decide (with reasons tied to world first race in mind, not because it's the only viable option) that X job performs better than Y job. That's fine, since that is how world first race works. there is always X job performing slightly better enough to justify taking it over Y job.

That said, quid of the remaining 99% players? Those are just sheeps disregarding jobs because "hurr durr they are bad" without having thought a second about it. They are the same people going full STR no tank stance in every content without any regard to their (random) team capacities since "hurr durr the top 1% manages it just fine in their fully synergized static".

I'm not saying that some jobs aren't in a bad spot (DRG, BLM sorta) or straight up not working (hello SCH/MCH) with the current state of the game. But saying that a job is not working because sheeps aren't using it (PLD in 3.X, WAR in 4.0) is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

But saying that a job is not working because sheeps aren't using it (PLD in 3.X, WAR in 4.0) is wrong.

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I said underutilized in the sense that the job's utility was not prevalent in encounters. For instance, magic blocking is something they could have done earlier. My response was in line with the development of Heavensward's encounters and the way War/Drk was designed. The crazy DPS checks obviously are going to bring up the topic of tank dps too, and yes, it is on the designer to make the jobs and encounters balanced properly. Ie. Giving Paladins Int down alongside reprisal, and Warriors' Storm's path/eye were very good with nothing comparable for Paladins.

I can use the same idea now: There is currently no reason to use a dark knight as a main tank next to a paladin. You cannot blame a player for that. A paladin on Delta 4 will be able to eat a 2-stack lightning far easier then a dark knight can while pumping out comparable or better dps.

That's not going to stop me from tanking it either, but it's certainly worth pointing the finger at the designers and questioning their balance decisions, not pointing the finger at the paladin who's going to do it better then I can by mitigation abilities alone.

Keep this in mind when you think about the role of a tank in the game.

Even if you die in this game you can come back and still get loot if the group wins. So "damage the mob to zero" is the only real goal in combat and I dare you to prove me otherwise. Secondary goals are do it easy and do it fast if you can.

The "trinity" system in MMOs is just a popular meme that probably originally developed because it was the most optimal way to kill. At some point I assume someone figured, "we get a high defence character just to hold the mobs, you keep him alive and then we can defeat this monster even with our party as we'll last long enough to damage him down to 0." And it worked so people stuck with the system, then developers eventually started designing encounters and classes(jobs) around having people performing these roles, I suppose.

For tanks not to worry about DPS makes no sense. When it comes down to it all they are doing via tanking is trying to kill the mob through damage like everyone else. Just indirectly - keeping players characters alive and able to attack so the damage output can continue. Tanks are just damaging like everyone else, but indirectly - because no damage is being done if dps are dead from direct attacks. Tanks and Healers are just characters that trade personal damage for utility that assists the group as a whole in its DPSing efforts.

Mitigation is just a means to an end, unless tanks somehow got better gear after the fight for generating high aggro and taking as little damage as possible, they will always want to maximize damage output best they can.