Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

That you would dismiss out of hand the very valid fact that parsers ENABLE toxic behaviour...

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Because they don't. They do not enable anything (or anyone) save perhaps (those who prefer) learning by doing and checking the results rather than by attempting to follow guides on blind trust.

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I am yet to see someone run over in the middle of the road carrying a desktop PC.

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Again, you're arguing anachronistically. One can blame cell phones for our whole degree of reduced face-to-face interaction only by having (purposely, more likely than not) forgotten what books, computers, and godsdamned human nature already contributed.

As for your quip about screen-staring pedestrians, you realize they said the same thing about paperbacks initially? That they'd be the death of people just because, without sufficient bulk and weight, one could do other things while reading -- imagine, someone walking while their attention is thus booked! And before that the fear was people becoming *gasp* too enraptured in conversation.

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Because they don't. They do not enable anything (or anyone) save perhaps (those who prefer) learning by doing and checking the results rather than by attempting to follow guides on blind trust.

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Im sorry Shurrikhan...theres your opinion, and theres the overwhelming evidence that says otherwise. Yoshi has expounded REPEATEDLY as to why he has taken this stance, how or why this doesnt persuade you, I dont know.

Ill take his opinion and expertise over yours , anytime.

On this, with respect, we agree to diametrically disagree.

they need to stop necrobumping this dead topic.

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Originally Posted by george357

they need to stop necrobumping this dead topic.

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Bruh it's not dead if people are still talking. Learn what necrobumping is, you keep using it for threads that have active discussion in them.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Bruh it's not dead if people are still talking. Learn what necrobumping is, you keep using it for threads that have active discussion in them.

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To be fair, if he finally posted that on a thread where his use of the word were appropriate, he'd probably also be the (nearly the) sole culprit of said necrobumping, since it'd actually have been dead (and take more than just his perusing the New Posts page).

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Originally Posted by Mihari

I have played the new WoW Dragonflight addon over the christmas holidays and were also in many Mythic+ Dungeons and also the Raid. I have rarely experienced such a toxic and unfriendly community.

The players were only looking into there different mod and addons (DPS Meter, Boss Mods, Mythic+ Tools ....) and when a player is not good enough, the group members gets in rage. I had it many, many times, that others or I were kicked from the group during the dungeon because we made less damage for the rest of the group members or the group was disbanded after the first death or when the run was too slow. At the end, I was very frustrated about the group behaviour in WoW and stopped playing dungeons and the raid at all.

In the meantime, I didn't renew my subscription for WoW and I don't want to experience such a community (only focused on numbers and in rage) anymore. That's why I'm against such tools in FFXIV and it would be a reason to cancel my subscription also in FFXIV.

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So you were a burden and were removed. This is a GOOD thing that happened. Use your dismissal to learn to not be a bad

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Originally Posted by Mihari

I have played the new WoW Dragonflight addon over the christmas holidays and were also in many Mythic+ Dungeons and also the Raid. I have rarely experienced such a toxic and unfriendly community.

The players were only looking into there different mod and addons (DPS Meter, Boss Mods, Mythic+ Tools ....) and when a player is not good enough, the group members gets in rage. I had it many, many times, that others or I were kicked from the group during the dungeon because we made less damage for the rest of the group members or the group was disbanded after the first death or when the run was too slow. At the end, I was very frustrated about the group behaviour in WoW and stopped playing dungeons and the raid at all.

In the meantime, I didn't renew my subscription for WoW and I don't want to experience such a community (only focused on numbers and in rage) anymore. That's why I'm against such tools in FFXIV and it would be a reason to cancel my subscription also in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

So you were a burden and were removed. This is a GOOD thing that happened. Use your dismissal to learn to not be a bad

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@Mihari

Don't mind Firemage. If you're new to M+, there are a couple ways to pretty quickly make things easier for yourself.

The smaller but steadier path is to spend a little more time in deliberate practice before moving up the levels. That may first mean practicing your ST, cleave, and AoE rotations, but also just getting into the habits of your ABCs, baiting out AoEs slightly, being able to guess where your tank will move to, interrupting/deflecting/feigning mechanics, integrating utility where productive, etc. If you have some friends, but too few for a full party, purposely undermanning some M0s can also be great just to get into the hang of everything. Alternatively, just consider that you needn't rush up the key levels. You're already going to have joined the season too late to join up with single-class tryhards (and you probably wouldn't want to anyways), but alt-gearing is evergreen, so even if it's your first character progressing late, there should be plenty of people to join.

The only potential problem you might face at these lower key levels is that as you're no longer right at the start at of the expansion, it's a bit like joining a particular Savage tier late, wherein there are additional expectations even among first clear parties and parties will naturally be skewed towards not only towards those who are new to M+ on their characters, but also to either those who are especially slow to improve (that "ELO hell" equivalent) or have already progressed far on other characters. That meeting of those two sides, between veterans just gearing up an alt and those who have never gotten past a lv7 (out of some 25+ difficulty levels) even after years can lead to some turbulence, to say the least. Sometimes a lv10 can be legitimately easier than a lv8 just because some players who aren't comfortable using utility, minding their step, or doing other little bits and tricks to help out the party are also the sort to feel disproportionately intimidated by that jump going into lv10 and higher keys.

The second, and probably more significant, is simply to find some M+ friends. They can help you to find where you can improve and how, can give you a steadier, friendlier, lower-stress context for that learning, and make both that learning and the gameplay itself more enjoyable. Personally, I've mostly just PuGed because I usually find most people plenty nice anyways and I'll often be invited or invite others to further consecutive runs if things went especially well, but there's always a risk of sour grapes.

Probably all irrelevant if poor luck has already irredeemably ruined that game for you (had a similar enough experience with Apex Legends despite finding it otherwise a really good game and actually even watching a few tournaments, so I more than get that), but... if you ever get the itch for any of its classes / dragonriding again, those are probably the two biggest things. Alternatively, if you're on the NA side (though I may have to check how the data center/battlegroups are set up?), I could shoot you an invite if you want any in-game pointers.

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Again, you're arguing anachronistically. One can blame cell phones for our whole degree of reduced face-to-face interaction only by having (purposely, more likely than not) forgotten what books, computers, and godsdamned human nature already contributed.

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Matter of fact, you can go talk to Ray Bradbury, who PREDICTED this decades ago. Fahrenheit 451.

Read the book. Montag lives.

Then go read Toffler. Future Shock.

I recently went back and read both of them...how they knew what was coming is still unbelievable.

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Personally, I have yet to see that but thrice in the last 6 years of running M+

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You will forgive me if I treat this comment with a grain of salt the size of the Titanic.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/mythic-plus-toxicity-is-caused-by-blizzards-game-design-choices/869612\

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The toxicity of mythic plus needs to be adressed quickly, as an influx of players will want to re-engage with the content come 9.0.5. If blizzard fails to adress the current toxic environement of mythic plus, the valor system will only make things worse. People will feel even more invested in their key, and will lash out worse when failures happen.

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I go back to my earlier stance...you never saw it happen so it didnt happen

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/how-to-solve-m-toxicity/878501

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I enjoy the concept of the challenge that m+ potentially brings to players and the potential rewards for doing keys in time, but the absolute abhorrent behavior that I’ve had directed at me or seen directed at others makes the whole experience unenjoyable even when nothing happens. It’s become so common of an occurrence that there’s this invisible pressure even in silent groups that it sours the whole thing for me. What can blizzard do to make m+ appear less like the average game of blind pick in league of legends

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https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-players-urge-blizzard-combat-toxicity-instead-censoring-game-content-1662472/

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“Blizzard should do something about toxic player behavior instead of censoring paintings and turning them into fruit bowls,” writes one Reddit user, referring to the decision to change an in-game artwork of a semi-clad woman into a collection of pears. “Being told to kill myself over a mistake or a petty disagreement is not okay at all.”

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But yeah, you;re right, they are making it all up............................:rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Matter of fact, you can go talk to Ray Bradbury, who PREDICTED this decades ago. Fahrenheit 451.

Read the book. Montag lives.

Then go read Toffler. Future Shock.

I recently went back and read both of them...how they knew what was coming is still unbelievable.

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Which topic are you even on at this point? Is it still just "calculators are toxic" or are we into "machined arithmetic = Big Brother" territory?

Something being able to do addition for you is not grounds for Toffler's "information overload." Nor is it a dystopian scenario based largely on a purging of information as within 451.

Still pretending introduction of a parser would suddenly remove all TOS I see. The reason ff14 is so tame is because the enforcement of moderation is so heavy. That's legit the reason. There is no reason to believe this would change.

Vel, what do you think would happen if I was to pop off on a dude who failed a mechanic? Why do you pretend so hard that it would be different if I was to pop off on someone's dps instead?

The major context that is missing from all the WoW anecdotes is that WoW and the majority of other MMOs are largely raid-focused games. Raiding is literally perceived as the only activity of value in such games. There are many MMOs without officially supported parsing or a culture of raiding not reliant on them that still manage to be toxic as hell. From what I understand, WoW's parsing isn't officially supported either, but that community suffers from a complete lack of any decent moderation whatsoever.

FFXIV has managed an entire decade without falling to such depravity, regardless of whatever impact the current situation around parsing is. The major difference is the overall community mentality and how the gameplay flow is designed. I was a top-end raider in my previous MMO, Dragon Nest, and the kind of shit I saw in there (without any culture of parsing, as such tools didn't exist for that game) made me want to throw that game's entire PvE scene into the nearest volcano by the time I decided to quit for FFXIV. I also tried raiding in Lost Ark before I got the impression that it'd go the same way as Dragon Nest in the long term. Incidentally, both games have aggressively stupid gearing systems, so what passes as a skilled player could really just be a measure of how well geared you are (but of course people wouldn't admit to such a thing), as opposed to FFXIV where numbers are so tightly crunched that a player's contribution really is a measure of player skill and party coordination above all.

There probably is one thing I can absolutely blame parsing for in FFXIV though, and it's probably not what most people in here expect. There was a period of time during Stormblood where people were very judgmental about what classes you were playing as. What happened? FFLogs started calculating player contribution based on what party buffs and debuffs you brought to the table. Any increase in damage that another party member gained from any buffs and debuffs were additionally attributed to the player who was the source of said buff/debuffs. The 'Raid DPS' and 'Personal DPS' metric (though I could be wrong on exactly what they're called nowadays, I haven't stepped foot onto that site for 3 years now). It was an eye-opening look into just how powerful buffs and debuffs were in FFXIV. But the community took the data too far - people got so stupid over this that the selfish DPS such as Samurai and Black Mages were actively shunned from raid groups due to not possessing any party buffs (not to mention top-tier Bards frequently topping the charts in most optimized parties because of their crit scaling back in that era).

How did SE respond? They gutted the shit out of party buffs and debuffs in Shadowbringers, and we've only continued on this path of ever decreasing class complexity and loss of individual class identity ever since. Granted, a lot of it has also been done in the name of accessibility, which also brings up a different argument in support of parsing. One could say that the lack of officially supported parsing has put SE in a spot where they are more willing to redesign and overhaul certain classes with each expansion, rather than let the community grapple with the idea that they should try to improve themselves instead. Though imposing the latter idea without parsing isn't an easy task, perhaps even impossible.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Matter of fact, you can go talk to Ray Bradbury, who PREDICTED this decades ago. Fahrenheit 451.

Read the book. Montag lives.

Then go read Toffler. Future Shock.

I recently went back and read both of them...how they knew what was coming is still unbelievable.

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You know it's time to get off the forums and take a walk outside if you have to resort to using literature/political commentary in an argument about numbers on a video game forum.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Don't mind Firemage. If you're new to M+, there are a couple ways to pretty quickly make things easier for yourself.

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you mean the perfect example of why parsers should never be added to the game?
xD

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Originally Posted by hagare

you mean the perfect example of why parsers should never be added to the game?
xD

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Actually what that person posted was a perfect example of why they should. Someone was not contributing appropriately, and was removed as they deserved to be. System working as it absolutely should be

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Actually what that person posted was a perfect example of why they should. Someone was not contributing appropriately, and was removed as they deserved to be. System working as it absolutely should be

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I rest my case

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Which topic are you even on at this point? Is it still just "calculators are toxic" or are we into "machined arithmetic = Big Brother" territory? Something being able to do addition for you is not grounds for Toffler's "information overload." Nor is it a dystopian scenario based largely on a purging of information as within 451

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Youve never read the book, have you? If you had, then maybe the next time you see someone with their nose buried in their phone, you will get it.

Information overload? The book isnt even THAT long, LMAO.

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Originally Posted by hagare

I rest my case

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You have no case. Your case requires proof that I am toxic, and you can't prove an impossible circumstance. You are dismissed

This discussion still goes on?

A in-game parser will not make others better and only enables toxic behaviour.

Best example is WoW, a parser is a must have there but you still have people who refuse to play their class correctly, even in a raid environment.
And on the other hand you have these people who harass other in easy casual content for their DMG, no matter if it's a new player on a unknown class.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

It was an eye-opening look into just how powerful buffs and debuffs were in FFXIV. But the community took the data too far - people got so stupid over this that the selfish DPS such as Samurai and Black Mages were actively shunned from raid groups due to not possessing any party buffs (not to mention top-tier Bards frequently topping the charts in most optimized parties because of their crit scaling back in that era).

How did SE respond? They gutted the shit out of party buffs and debuffs in Shadowbringers, and we've only continued on this path of ever decreasing class complexity and loss of individual class identity ever since. Granted, a lot of it has also been done in the name of accessibility, which also brings up a different argument in support of parsing. One could say that the lack of officially supported parsing has put SE in a spot where they are more willing to redesign and overhaul certain classes with each expansion, rather than let the community grapple with the idea that they should try to improve themselves instead. Though imposing the latter idea without parsing isn't an easy task, perhaps even impossible.

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The funny thing is that if they still designed fights at least occasionally to offer features of indirect (not directly calculable) advantage (think Cover, etc.)... then there would actually be more to the game than just rDPS and aDPS.

But, no, they decided to trim the game down and down to literally just damage and whatever as directly and reliably as possible converts to it. (And it's not even a kind that differs "burst" from "sustained" except in that "burst" damage also does more damage overall, since there are no advantages to the less bursty jobs, nor particularly threatening short-term DPS checks to feature "burst" jobs despite any total damage advantages for the "sustained" ones. Given that, what other course would the community have reasonably taken?)

Now, why we somehow fell to the point that just because rDPS became the default metric (wherein party-independent comparisons become harder to make between buffers instead of between exploiters [the "selfish" jobs], instead of the inverse, and equal rDPS exploiters could still provide greatly significantly contributions to total party DPS [see the difference previously between PLD and DRK on their neck-and-neck fights/parses]) it became the only one that people cared about when aDPS, too, was right there to help inform the fuller picture... idk. That takes a special kind of self-imposed ignorance, especially for any claiming to be interested in that degree of optimization.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

This discussion still goes on?

A in-game parser will not make others better and only enables toxic behaviour.

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It actually curbs toxic behavior, or at least having to put up with it. Finding out who isn't contributing appropriately and then removing them would be taking care of actual toxic behavior. Also saying it wouldn't make people better is beyond wrong, it's down right dangerous misinformation

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Youve never read [Toffler's Future Shock], have you?

Information overload? The book isnt even THAT long, LMAO.

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...Oh the irony.

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Originally Posted by Mihari

I have played the new WoW Dragonflight addon over the christmas holidays and were also in many Mythic+ Dungeons and also the Raid. I have rarely experienced such a toxic and unfriendly community.

The players were only looking into there different mod and addons (DPS Meter, Boss Mods, Mythic+ Tools ....) and when a player is not good enough, the group members gets in rage. I had it many, many times, that others or I were kicked from the group during the dungeon because we made less damage for the rest of the group members or the group was disbanded after the first death or when the run was too slow. At the end, I was very frustrated about the group behaviour in WoW and stopped playing dungeons and the raid at all.

In the meantime, I didn't renew my subscription for WoW and I don't want to experience such a community (only focused on numbers and in rage) anymore. That's why I'm against such tools in FFXIV and it would be a reason to cancel my subscription also in FFXIV.

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This post has a one sided context, did you practice your class before entering m+? These dungeons are made to be challenges by intent so there is a requirement on your part. FF does a bad job at addressing getting players good

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The funny thing is that if they still designed fights at least occasionally to offer features of indirect (not directly calculable) advantage (think Cover, etc.)... then there would actually be more to the game than just rDPS and aDPS.

But, no, they decided to trim the game down and down to literally just damage and whatever as directly and reliably as possible converts to it. (And it's not even a kind that differs "burst" from "sustained" except in that "burst" damage also does more damage overall, since there are no advantages to the less bursty jobs, nor particularly threatening short-term DPS checks to feature "burst" jobs despite any total damage advantages for the "sustained" ones. Given that, what other course would the community have reasonably taken?)

Now, why we somehow fell to the point that just because rDPS became the default metric (wherein party-independent comparisons become harder to make between buffers instead of between exploiters [the "selfish" jobs], instead of the inverse, and equal rDPS exploiters could still provide greatly significantly contributions to total party DPS [see the difference previously between PLD and DRK on their neck-and-neck fights/parses]) it became the only one that people cared about when aDPS, too, was right there to help inform the fuller picture... idk. That takes a special kind of self-imposed ignorance, especially for any claiming to be interested in that degree of optimization.

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It's been a long ass time since I had to read anything like this, it's 2 AM where I live right now, and I feel like my head just exploded. What have I done?

Though I do remember being heavily displeased with how rDPS became the default metric, because of how it ultimately contributed to the shitshow that was the Stormblood job meta.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It actually curbs toxic behavior, or at least having to put up with it. Finding out who isn't contributing appropriately and then removing them would be taking care of actual toxic behavior. Also saying it wouldn't make people better is beyond wrong, it's down right dangerous misinformation

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Oh, it will not improve any players performance.
These who want to be better will look up guides and rotations to improve. And they do that already, they don't need a personal parser for it.

The player who don't care about anything will continue to not care.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

The player who don't care about anything will continue to not care.

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They will when they get kicked more frequently

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Oh, it will not improve any players performance.
These who want to be better will look up guides and rotations to improve. And they do that already, they don't need a personal parser for it.

The player who don't care about anything will continue to not care.

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This is true in principle. The motivation to clear can come from anywhere.

I remember the only thing that made me break out of my shell about a year after I first started playing in Heavensward was that I really, REALLY wanted the Sephirot EX mount. But I was trying to get it at a time where most people had stopped farming it, and cross world PF didn't exist yet either, so all I had at the time were learning parties. After an entire afternoon of struggling, I managed to get one clear, but no mount, so I decided to put that off until next expansion. I didn't raid for real until some FC mates said they were looking for a ranged job for Sephirot EX farming a few months after that, which in reality turned out to be a surprise tryout for their raid group in A9S because they were that desperate. I kinda shrugged and went along with it, and somehow ended up in a static because I was somehow better than all of the Bards who actually did apply despite my confidence issues at the time.

They did get me that mount for my birthday afterwards though, without having to wait for the next expansion.

Things kind of happened from that point on, and two and a half years later, I ended up clearing an ultimate.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

They will when they get kicked more frequently

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Dude, you're not helping.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Dude, you're not helping.

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Facts are always helpful. What is wrong with removing the actually toxic players? The correct answer is nothing

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Originally Posted by FireMage

They will when they get kicked more frequently

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Everything you've been saying is an assumption, not a fact. Personally if I was being shamed by you and kicked over my performance I'd just requeue, get through the content normally and send a report your way for harassment.

Maybe try being nice and helpful towards people who are underperformed, healthy communication goes a lot further than the tyrant approach. Even if by some miracle parsers were added, I highly doubt they would make it not against the ToS to kick someone for their DPS performance or harass them for it.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Everything you've been saying is an assumption, not a fact. Personally if I was being shamed by you and kicked over my performance I'd just requeue, get through the content normally and send a report your way for harassment.

Maybe try being nice and helpful towards people who are underperformed, healthy communication goes a lot further than the tyrant approach. Even if by some miracle parsers were added, I highly doubt they would make it not against the ToS to kick someone for their DPS performance or harass them for it.

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How can you be shamed when you were silently kicked? Hmmm? A kick which by the way would've been backed by the TOS. You really should read it, you can basically remove anyone for anything. And deadbeat players don't deserve communication, they deserved to be excised until they either learn to properly contribute (which is their personal responsibility btw) or they uninstall

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Facts are always helpful. What is wrong with removing the actually toxic players? The correct answer is nothing

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If it was a savage? Maybe. But most people form statics for savage difficulty for a reason.

If it was an EX though? DPS requirements for clearing an EX are low enough that the only thing that really matters there is that everyone does the mechanics correctly. If I saw someone pulling this shit while probably also failing mechanics themselves because they were too busy staring at the meter in the corner and/or mentally stewing at another party member, I'd be inclined to join in the effort to boot their ass first for actively disrupting the party. Doubly so if you're a DPS pulling this shit while simultaneously not out-DPSing me, a freaking Bard, which was usually the case during the amount of times I observed toxicity in EX parties.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

How can you be shamed when you were silently kicked? Hmmm? A kick which by the way would've been backed by the TOS. You really should read it, you can basically remove anyone for anything. And deadbeat players don't deserve communication, they deserved to be excised until they either learn to properly contribute (which is their personal responsibility btw) or they uninstall

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So then question, how will people know their DPS is the issue and subsequently improve if you're silently kicking them and not giving a reason? That's another assumption on your part. For all you know said person could be thinking something else entirely like you kicked them because you didn't like their glamour (not gonna lie, have seen this happen a couple times lolol).

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

If it was a savage? Maybe. But most people form statics for savage difficulty for a reason.

If it was an EX though? DPS requirements for clearing an EX are low enough that the only thing that really matters there is that everyone does the mechanics correctly. If I saw someone pulling this shit while probably also failing mechanics themselves because they were too busy staring at the meter in the corner and/or mentally stewing at another party member, I'd be inclined to join in the effort to boot their ass first for actively disrupting the party. Doubly so if you're a DPS pulling this shit while simultaneously not out-DPSing me, a freaking Bard, which was usually the case during the amount of times I observed toxicity in EX parties.

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You're wasting your breath trying to do the this vs that thing. He views all content as savage worthy and everyone must meet his parse standards or they should fall off the nearest cliff as punishment for their incompetence.

I just reply for the lols and boredom relief before I start my day, stopped taking anything he said seriously months ago.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

So then question, how will people know their DPS is the issue and subsequently improve if you're silently kicking them and not giving a reason? That's another assumption on your part. For all you know said person could be thinking something else entirely like you kicked them because you didn't like their glamour (not gonna lie, have seen this happen a couple times lolol).

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I already gave the answer, do read

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

You're wasting your breath trying to do the this vs that thing. He views all content as savage worthy

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Swing and a miss, try again

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Finding out who isn't contributing appropriately and then removing them would be taking care of actual toxic behavior.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

What is wrong with removing the actually toxic players? The correct answer is nothing

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You're conflating underperforming with toxic behaviours. A dps meter doesn't measure how well-behaved you are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

You're wasting your breath trying to do the this vs that thing. He views all content as savage worthy and everyone must meet his parse standards or they should fall off the nearest cliff as punishment for their incompetence.

I just reply for the lols and boredom relief before I start my day, stopped taking anything he said seriously months ago.

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Hmm. I see I am quickly becoming acquainted with the new era of clowns.

I'm aware though. I've witnessed this same song and dance in these forums multiple times over the years. Lot of deja vu going on looking at this thread. I actually had to check just now to see if this wasn't the same 90+ page thread that I was arguing in support for parsing before I took my extended break from the game at the start of COVID lockdowns. I am mildly disappointed to find out that this is a relatively new thread.

That said, my reasoning for parsing back in the day was usually for more pragmatic and defensive reasons - most people being toxic towards other party members were usually performing very badly themselves, and were often projecting to deflect from their own performance, so it let me see a different angle to the situation instead of leaving the situation to feelings. It was also a good way for me to see which specific DPS were actually trying, and to throw a comm their way to encourage them further.

That said, the concerns over them being misused and becoming a source of toxicity does exist, though the idea of this game becoming a WoW-type hellscape overnight is overblown with how this community tends to behave in general. Stuff like your infamous ice mage is also a rare sight in this game too, their existence also overblown. Beyond that, I don't particularly care if someone is underperforming in numbers in EX and below content as long as they're doing mechanics correctly, because I'm still usually good enough as a Bard to cover for any shortcomings on the DPS side. Even my undergeared catching up ass can still push most parties into clearing Expert Roulette under 15 minutes today, regardless of the circumstances. Unless someone like, fails a mechanic and dies somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Estecka

You're conflating underperforming with toxic behaviours.

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They are one and the same, there is no conflating here. This is a cooperative based game, if you aren't contributing you are being toxic

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Originally Posted by FireMage

How can you be shamed when you were silently kicked? Hmmm? A kick which by the way would've been backed by the TOS. You really should read it, you can basically remove anyone for anything. And deadbeat players don't deserve communication, they deserved to be excised until they either learn to properly contribute (which is their personal responsibility btw) or they uninstall

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Thanks for being the perfect example as to why we should not allow a official in-game parser.
Because people like you are in no way helpful and would abuse it to be toxic towards "casual" player's because their number is not as high as you want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Thanks for being the perfect example as to why we should not allow a official in-game parser.
Because people like you are in no way helpful and would abuse it to be toxic towards "casual" player's because their number is not as high as you want it to be.

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Being a casual and being a bad are two separate things. Yes a person can be bad, but to insinuate that casuals are bads is incorrect. Contribute appropriately or leave, by force if necessary, those are the only correct options

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Swing and a miss, try again

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Don't need to, the people in this thread are already doing that for me. Might be wasting their time because you ultimately don't care about their opinions but it's still hilarious to watch.

Enjoy the rest of your day, I'm off to irl. O/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Don't need to, the people in this thread are already doing that for me. Might be wasting their time because you ultimately don't care about their opinions but it's still hilarious to watch.

Enjoy the rest of your day, I'm off to irl. O/

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Why would I care about what people have to say when facts contradict them?