Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Well really, 3 times to do a 17 min run isn't all that much to complain about. After that you can do it the easier way. My beef was having absolutely no control over the shitty RNG.

But I understand your point we're all sick of the repetitive bullshit.

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i hate to say it, but MMO endgames are ALL about repetetiveness, so its not something that can easily be fixed....

I am sure SE can put 10 new dungeons with each patch in v2.0 ^^

I don't mean to stir the pot, guys. But is a 17 min speed run of AV possible with a party that has every job present? Or is the only way to get it hopping around from one job to another to another for different bosses?

Don't get me wrong, I have every battle class at 50 and I will be hopping to whatever job needed to get this done when it is time. BUT, it seems against the spirit of the entire quest to be forced to level MNK to get your PLD relic weapon. Or to be forced to level every job to get one job's relic weapon.

It seems that what we are missing is the fact that a DRG relic weapon quest should be tailored around completing content on DRG.

I know alot of people will say "But you can take a dragoon and finish stuff just fine. I do it all the time on my LS [etc,etc]" but the fact of the matter remains that you cannot play in a full relic-unlocking party without several (or most) people shunning the very job whose relic they are unlocking.

This seems inherently flawed.

Like I said, I'll do what needs to be done to take care of biz, but most people wouldn't be arguing as much as they are if SE would have implemented more job-specific stuff instead of full party of monk, full party of blackmage stuff.

Most likely we'll see some of that going on later, possibly a fight with your unlocked relic weapon being used in order to unlock it, but it is a shame that it can't be integrated into more steps in the process.

Alternatively you can still do non-17min speedrun with every class and still have chance at the item.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Alternatively you can still do non-17min speedrun with every class and still have chance at the item.

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But the fact of the matter remains that SE is encouraging you to not play the job whose relic you are unlocking, which is against the spirit of the quest.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Alternatively you can still do non-17min speedrun with every class and still have chance at the item.

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Keep in mind that comes with a 1%ish drop rate.

My inherent issue with your argument is that I feel like people use 'class stacking' much too loosely. Every instance is going to have that specific type of class setup that works best, or is most preferable by players. The good thing is that you can pretty much do all the content available with almost any setup at still be successful (if not as efficient as certain setups).

That aside, I agree. It would be really fun to have different instances/bosses to kill for every weapon, each of which is altered to be ever so slightly more efficient on said weapon's corresponding job. Obv., though, right now they can't exactly do that, and the team is sort of falling back on older content to fill in the gaps that can't be filled in until 2.0. But yeah, I'd be more than happy to see that sort of balancing and depth in the game in the future.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Keep in mind that comes with a 1%ish drop rate.

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Oh yea i know, it just that his response came up as he doesn't even have a choice and forced to do 17m run.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Oh yea i know, it just that his response came up as he doesn't even have a choice and forced to do 17m run.

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Maybe comment on the point that I clearly stated, rather than the "vibe" of something that wasn't clearly stated?

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Originally Posted by Deltara

But the fact of the matter remains that SE is encouraging you to not play the job whose relic you are unlocking, which is against the spirit of the quest.

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Originally Posted by Req

I am pretty sure killing something faster than normal is skill based.... It takes precision, optimized gear, skill rotation, positioning etc.... I don't know where you people bitching that doing something incredibly fast and nearly flawless isn't skill based are coming from. What exactly is your definition of skill?

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I'm not opposed to speed runs myself, and I agree that they are a way of showing skill, like I said earlier(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post730035) speed can certainly be a measure and should be rewardable.

The problem I've always seen with speed runs is that it reinforces class stacking and single successful strategies. You get back into that whole area where your not taking [job] because it doesn't do well in a speed run. This leads to exclusionary content not based on how good you are or aren't at a job but instead on what you 'want' to play as, telling the die hard PLD they can't go along because PLD sucks for [content] speed runs is like SE saying "We made this content intentionally exclusive to these classes/jobs because we don't really care about the others."

I know that's not the intent but it is the end result. Finding other ways to make a raid doable without using only speed as a bonus factor, so like someone else mentioned endurance runs, where instead of racing through you have to kill everything to spawn extra mobs that have to be killed in order to unlock a secondary boss that also has to be killed to get a bonus chest. Of course making these all delayed time so that if you clear a room in 3 mins or 8 mins it still doesn't pop the next wave of mobs until the 10 min mark removing speed running from the dungeon for those that don't want to. While you can bolt past the rooms and if you clear the dungeon in <[some time] you get the same bonus chest as the endurance run party.

The flaw with a system like this in our current setup is the delay for reentry. Because we can enter 15 mins after clear no one would want to do endurance runs given the choice since it would be less efficient. Having a change in the reentry req's, say "On success you must still wait until the raids timer would have run out +15 minutes." So that regardless of the time it takes a group to clear if you clear you still can't reenter until the normal timer would expire, a 1 hour timelimit dungeon on success would require a wait of 1 hour 15 mintues from the time of entry on success. Completely balanced playing field, speed runners get to speed run, endurance runners get to do endurance, everyone has the potential for the same rewards, based on skill; speed for full clear in <[time], slaughter for defeating >#[waves] in each section, endurance for surviving against progressively stronger enemies for an amount of time in each section.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

You forgot to add

and while playing Gran Turismo 5 on small screen and getting 1st place in that as well.

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Forgot to add that the small screen was behind you and you were driving backwards while looking through a mirror.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

But the fact of the matter remains that SE is encouraging you to not play the job whose relic you are unlocking, which is against the spirit of the quest.

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the last part of relic quest we have to do it with your unfinished relic tho.

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

the last part of relic quest we have to do it with your unfinished relic tho.

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That's at least something, I guess. BTW, thanks! You guys have been great with the info~ Gratz and keep it coming.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

But the fact of the matter remains that SE is encouraging you to not play the job whose relic you are unlocking, which is against the spirit of the quest.

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Everyone in my group is on a job that they are getting a relic for.

Ok guys, focus. Focus on what i'm saying.

I'm not saying that you can't progress for each person's relic at the same time. I'm saying that you cannot progress for each person's relic on the job you are getting the relic on.

This means that half your party is DoLing or DoHing in order to get a relic weapon. Or half your party is monk-ing to get non-monk relic weapons.

I'm saying that it would have been true to the immersion? storyline? plot? spirit of the quest? to encourage players to complete their relic weapon quests on the jobs they are getting their relic for.

I'm not saying you guys are bad people for not doing that. lol I'm saying the game designers are lazy for not coming up with a way to do it this way.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Ok guys, focus. Focus on what i'm saying.

I'm not saying that you can't progress for each person's relic at the same time. I'm saying that you cannot progress for each person's relic on the job you are getting the relic on.

This means that half your party is DoLing or DoHing in order to get a relic weapon. Or half your party is monk-ing to get non-monk relic weapons.

I'm saying that it would have been true to the immersion? storyline? plot? spirit of the quest? to encourage players to complete their relic weapon quests on the jobs they are getting their relic for.

I'm not saying you guys are bad people for not doing that. lol I'm saying the game designers are lazy for not coming up with a way to do it this way.

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seeing as you dont declare what your going for til after you get the seals
technicaly your not on any weapon yet....

and technically they aren't real weapons, just pixels on my TV screen. ok, i concede.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

I don't mean to stir the pot, guys. But is a 17 min speed run of AV possible with a party that has every job present? Or is the only way to get it hopping around from one job to another to another for different bosses?

Don't get me wrong, I have every battle class at 50 and I will be hopping to whatever job needed to get this done when it is time. BUT, it seems against the spirit of the entire quest to be forced to level MNK to get your PLD relic weapon. Or to be forced to level every job to get one job's relic weapon.

It seems that what we are missing is the fact that a DRG relic weapon quest should be tailored around completing content on DRG.

I know alot of people will say "But you can take a dragoon and finish stuff just fine. I do it all the time on my LS [etc,etc]" but the fact of the matter remains that you cannot play in a full relic-unlocking party without several (or most) people shunning the very job whose relic they are unlocking.

This seems inherently flawed.

Like I said, I'll do what needs to be done to take care of biz, but most people wouldn't be arguing as much as they are if SE would have implemented more job-specific stuff instead of full party of monk, full party of blackmage stuff.

Most likely we'll see some of that going on later, possibly a fight with your unlocked relic weapon being used in order to unlock it, but it is a shame that it can't be integrated into more steps in the process.

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THIS.

This will shut up the people defending the system, or it should. Until I see a <17 min video of a full job party... well I'll hold my breath for a very long time. SE is basically honoring class/job stacking at this point. I will cry the day that they get rid of this speed run bullsh*t and luck type crap. No one wants it, or not to the extreme XIV takes it.

Like I said numerous times, you should have been required to kill stuff (like all three primals) with the class specific weapon on the job you are doing it for. Or be required to do specifc actions in combat against bosses. Not totally change to a different job >.>

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

THIS.

Like I said numerous times, you should have been required to kill stuff (like all three primals) with the class specific weapon on the job you are doing it for. Or be required to do specifc actions in combat against bosses. Not totally change to a different job >.>

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6th step: Resurrect Relic (by using unfinished weapon)
Solo mob level 50+ to spiritbond
Faction leve (up to 4 people)
Fight Ifrit and Garuda

you happy?

Naw, next thing they gonna complain is no people to do Garuda with.

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

6th step: Resurrect Relic (by using unfinished weapon)
Solo mob level 50+ to spiritbond
Faction leve (up to 4 people)
Fight Ifrit and Garuda

you happy?

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Well that's not so bad.

Can never take the community seriously, at least the @ssholes that take part in these forums. I waste my time with them >.>

Share your opinion on something that's not a zerg fest, skipping half the content, or class/job stacking... and you get hit in the face with it.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

and technically they aren't real weapons, just pixels on my TV screen. ok, i concede.

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I do see your point. The fact of the matter is that this game's structure is still really messed up right now and won't truly be resolved till 2.0. Right now, the game is definitely more job oriented than gear oriented due to the harsh conditions of the dungeons that just make jobs like BLM more convenient and better at getting that 17 minute speed run. I do have faith SE will switch things around in 2.0 and make it a fair playground without the influence to stack jobs. Judging a person by skill and gear before what job they are. I say just deal with what it is now, and see what 2.0 will be able to pull off.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

And not a single dev. response.
Lame..

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BECAUSE THEY ALREADY SAID THEY WOULD LOOK INTO CHANGING THE SYSTEM AFTER 2.0!!!!!!! Wait, wait, I am sorry, no yelling. I just get worked up after sounding like a broken record a million times. They haven't responded because this isn't even on there radar right now. WHen asked in an interview about this very topic, Yoshi said they will look at changing this system and the drop rate AFTER 2.0 launches. Thats why they haven't responded, because the man himself already has.


1UP: A couple things in the game right now that seem to be, as Final Fantasy XI players might say, are "haunted by the ghost of Tanaka." For example, the Relic weapon quests that were just added yesterday seem to rely very heavily on luck. And this kind of thing is really discouraging to a lot of players. An element of luck is okay, but effort is more important. And there's always the thought that, yeah, if I do this enough times, I might get lucky and get it, but there's always the fear that they won't. Especially after the Ifrit and other boss battles. I know people say that they fought 75 times and they haven't gotten a weapon yet, and they're just really frustrated, and they're upset to see that same thing happening in other systems. So are there any plans to adjust the luck/effort balance of high-level content in the future?

NY: We can tell you that at version 2.0, a lot of things are going to be changing in this aspect. For example, like a token type of system, where if you do it enough times, you're going to get rewarded for doing it that many times. We also have something else prepared as well that's going to address this... we can't talk about it now, but we have many things in place that will address that issue.

And the other thing being that, the real need for the Need, Greed, and Pass type of system when things get dropped, things that are pretty much a global standard that we haven't achieved yet on Final Fantasy XIV. We understand that we have those problems, but with the current system, we can't address them. But we will be able to address them in 2.0 with the new system and the new engines. And so you can go back and tell the community that, come 2.0, we will actually have that global standard and you won't have to worry as much about these types of things. But again, that doesn't mean we're going to forget about our current version players. We're going to listen to the voices of the players, look at the forums, adjust drop rates to reduce as much stress as possible for the players so they can experience this grand finale, the Seventh Umbral Era story, that ushers in 2.0.

1UP: Thanks so much for your time, Yoshida-san.



Found here:
http://www.1up.com/features/ffxiv-in...nix-fallen-mmo

Can we drop this now please?

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Are you guys serious? 80+ pages of people bitching about shitty drop rates, and now you finally get a way to get 100%, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT, drop rate, yet you still bitch? Claiming that speed & efficiency =/= skill?

If you don't think this requires skill and coordination you are in serious denial. Please post your 17 min SR5C videos. I'd love to see how unskilled you need to be to achieve this.

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people are gonna bitch until they can go do a quest kill an npc and get the item.

I just heard in game that some people say about this rumor

"It didn't really have to Speed Run 5 Chest within 17 mins to get 100% drop
You can skip almost everything to just 17 mins and it will drop"


for the information still needed confirm

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Originally Posted by Mirana

I just heard in game that some people say about this rumor

"It didn't really have to Speed Run 5 Chest within 17 mins to get 100% drop
You can skip almost everything to just 17 mins and it will drop"


for the information still needed confirm

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We've done it at 15 minutes with no 5 chest. It doesn't work.

Curious if people have been trying for this and falling short by a min or more but still <20 mins if there are tiers?

Example: <17 mins = 100%
<18 mins = 50%
<20 mins = 25%

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

We've done it at 15 minutes with no 5 chest. It doesn't work.

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IC , Thanks for the confirming

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Originally Posted by Aratharn

Curious if people have been trying for this and falling short by a min or more but still <20 mins if there are tiers?

Example: <17 mins = 100%
<18 mins = 50%
<20 mins = 25%

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Kinda hard to test this out or maybe must have to dig up some of the .dat file to find out about this

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Originally Posted by Mirana

IC , Thanks for the confirming



Kinda hard to test this out or maybe must have to dig up some of the .dat file to find out about this

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Well its a bit easier if all 8 people are on the relic quest. If you're doing sub 20min runs and no one is getting the mythril we can assume its still an abysmal drop rate

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Originally Posted by Mirana

IC , Thanks for the confirming
Kinda hard to test this out or maybe must have to dig up some of the .dat file to find out about this

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Drop are generated server side and drop rules are located server side as well. The condition "if time < X minutes then" is operated by the server only. Looking into DAT wouldn't help at all (unless there would be an achievement for it or something similar.)

I don't even think that loot table are available in DATs. So drop rate & conditions? No way.

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Originally Posted by Aratharn

Curious if people have been trying for this and falling short by a min or more but still <20 mins if there are tiers?

Example: <17 mins = 100%
<18 mins = 50%
<20 mins = 25%

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so far we have done around 100ish runs
<25 mins (100 runs) = 2 mythrils (yes just two, no more)
<20 mins (at least 10 runs) = 0 mythril
<18 mins (1 run when tried to break <17mins) = 0 mythril

<17mins 5 chests = 100%

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Originally Posted by Aratharn

Curious if people have been trying for this and falling short by a min or more but still <20 mins if there are tiers?

Example: <17 mins = 100%
<18 mins = 50%
<20 mins = 25%

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We have done many sub 20 runs, and quite a few 17:01 min runs.
The drop rate does not change unless you are under 17 min.

Guess that answers that.

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

6th step: Resurrect Relic (by using unfinished weapon)
Solo mob level 50+ to spiritbond
Faction leve (up to 4 people)
Fight Ifrit and Garuda

you happy?

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I can see more raging about having to fight Garuda (on your weapons class) than the RNG raging that exists now. Maybe 5% of the people with Garuda achievement can even kill it w/o BLM burning.

Though I guess with it nearly forcing you to 17m AV that 95% might be weeded out anyways.

I think the materia prices are going to drop back down a bit now as people realize that those 2 steps might be impossible for them.

Off Topic
This 17min 5 chest - 100% drop stuff just made me wonder...
If SE even has system in like for Ifrit clear under 4 min or 5min no death rewarding 50% drop since I know really quick runs we did we saw more weapons/totem drops compared to slow ones.... same goes for DarkLight gear......

But then again....it's SE... they probably just did this for AF weapons and didn't bother going back to older stuff to add hidden features like this.... would be sweet imo... harder to accomplish but gives little bit more light on those super low drop rate stuff...

anyways CC items next...

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

I can see more raging about having to fight Garuda (on your weapons class) than the RNG raging that exists now. Maybe 5% of the people with Garuda achievement can even kill it w/o BLM burning.

Though I guess with it nearly forcing you to 17m AV that 95% might be weeded out anyways.

I think the materia prices are going to drop back down a bit now as people realize that those 2 steps might be impossible for them.

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Wait the Garuda fight isn't trolling requirement? Dear god if its true, that is just great haha. I can see so many people not able to finish it, people asked for challenge. Now let's see what they are going to say.

For CC it's same deal

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=383244

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16分踏破+5箱で全員に出現を確認しました。
恐らくオーラムと同じく特定のタイム以下(オーラムと同じなら17分)+5箱が条件だと思われます。
Cleared it in 16min with 5 chest and confirmed everyone got the item.
Most likely the requirement is same as AV which is under certain time (If same with AV then 17min) +5 chest

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Good luck :)

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Wait the Garuda fight isn't trolling requirement? Dear god if its true, that is just great haha. I can see so many people not able to finish it, people asked for challenge. Now let's see what they are going to say.

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Actually, this would be pretty awesome. I always wanted to bring my Dragoon into fights.

I never mind the difficulty of a fight as long as there is just reward at the end of it. In this case, there is, you progress.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

For CC it's same deal

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=383244

Good luck :)

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thank you for the info Reinhart,
we will try it after maintenance