Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The VIT change was fundamentally key to have tanks return to their roots. STR meta was so efficient that with a NIN, I didn't even need to be in ShO for any boss pulls back in Gordias, those were the time where ShO completely reset combo btw.

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I remember pressing Power Slash literally once in week 1 A3S prog and having aggro for the entire 13min encounter, just silly as hell.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The VIT change was fundamentally key to have tanks return to their roots. STR meta was so efficient that with a NIN, I didn't even need to be in ShO for any boss pulls back in Gordias, those were the time where ShO completely reset combo btw. Overall tanks do less damage than any capable DPS while having tanks to establish aggro better and top up whenever necessary now. Obviously good tanks can still outdps the baddies but VIT change is for the better, imo moving into the way of how tanks should play.

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I agree, tho at least from what I've seen on my server and Alex, people want Warriors to constantly output high damage. This makes WAR a weird DPS... thing. I'm not against a tank tossing in DPS to help out, but I don't like how WAR is being pushed into a DPS slot.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

I'm not against a tank tossing in DPS to help out, but I don't like how WAR is being pushed into a DPS slot.

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As I think I mentioned earlier, it's a blood from a stone thing. It's easier for a WAR to go from meh DPS to decent then from a DPS doing well to doing top tier damage. While there might be a proportional difference which makes high end tanking hilarious compared to mid-level (I can clear A10S comfortably with 1400 DPS whereas the top WAR has DPS at just under 2k), it's not really any easier for the DPS. I can go as a Paladin into a fight to OT Like I did tonight for raid, but I'm doing literally less damage than the MT DRK, which means I'm bringing about 200 less DPS to the table. This ties into the WAR OT meta (easier to get a WAR than to make DPS better, basically) as well as the fact that going from 900 -> 1300 DPS on a tank is 'easy' compared to asking a 1600 DPS Bard to go to 2k for example.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

As I think I mentioned earlier, it's a blood from a stone thing. It's easier for a WAR to go from meh DPS to decent then from a DPS doing well to doing top tier damage. While there might be a proportional difference which makes high end tanking hilarious compared to mid-level (I can clear A10S comfortably with 1400 DPS whereas the top WAR has DPS at just under 2k), it's not really any easier for the DPS. I can go as a Paladin into a fight to OT Like I did tonight for raid, but I'm doing literally less damage than the MT DRK, which means I'm bringing about 200 less DPS to the table. This ties into the WAR OT meta (easier to get a WAR than to make DPS better, basically) as well as the fact that going from 900 -> 1300 DPS on a tank is 'easy' compared to asking a 1600 DPS Bard to go to 2k for example.

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I'd argue they're the same almost. You may have a tank who is good at DPSing but bad at tanking/grabbing adds etc.

No. The former is a performance issue, while the latter is a competence issue. If you are unable to secure aggro or mitigate effectively, then you can't tank, period, irrespective of your dps. If your dps is poor, then you can tank, albeit not particularly well.

Both tanking and DPS are your responsibilities as a tank in this game. No.1 priority for a tank is still the ability to secure aggro and to take hits. The rest of the points like positioning intricacies, timing for swaps and etc and lastly DPS, they becomes the stepping scores of how competent you are at any given fights. Ofc it's not always agreed upon by the tanks, but a capable tank knows when he can switch to DPS stance or turtle up when group is falling slowly like someone died and suddenly have the need to recover.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

I'd argue they're the same almost. You may have a tank who is good at DPSing but bad at tanking/grabbing adds etc.

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WAR is better at grabbing adds than PLD, it has more AOE. As for tanking, fights have to be scaled to allow WARs to MT, meaning that the negatives put against WAR don't really matter at all

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If your dps is poor, then you can tank, albeit not particularly well.

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You're tanking just fine at that point. Ignoring the OT as that just an extra DPS, an MTs DPS is pure bonus.

I get classes should somewhat venture out of their roles (healers and tanks mainly). However I find it strange if their DPS isn't high enough (even if their DPS isn't exactly necessary in that particular fight) they're "not good", even though they're performing their main function just fine.

This is not an issue if you're playing completely casually, but if you're part of a progression-focused team with the goal of clearing fights efficiently, you have to be aware of what you have to offer your teammates, just as you're aware of what they have to offer you. "Just fine" may be acceptable to you, but it may not be to your team, especially if there are tanks who can offer everything that you can in terms of your "main function" while putting out 1.5x to 3x the dps. There's a big enough variation in tank skill and performance that non-tanks do notice and do care, and even being "MT" doesn't absolve you of afk-shieldwalling your way to a carry-clear. This may not have been the case in early ARR, when you could get away with this, but people outside of the tanking community have since caught on. Statics fall apart when there's a mismatch in drive between the players, and if you're not as "hungry" for the clear as everyone else is, then you shouldn't really be on that team. It's nothing personal.

You'll see one of two reactions when someone discovers that they've been under-performing. Either they'll deny it, get angry, give up, and try to drag everyone else down to their level ("Dear devs, delete dps stance from the game pls, to prevent its illegal use outside of solo content"), or they'll take it as a challenge and get better until they surpass their peers. Both personality types are in this thread. Even if self-improvement isn't your primary motivation (it should be, if you're playing for the challenge, instead of to keep up with the Joneses), at least let fear of letting your team down inspire you to do more than just coast until a clear "happens". You'll save everyone a lot of heartache if you do.

Alternatively, play how you want, and find other players who want to do the same. Just be honest with yourself, don't carry any pretences, don't make any excuses for yourself, and don't waste other peoples' time. It's only fair.

i think some saying is more the actitude of many players around DPS, i mean no matter how you mitigate place and agro a boss even to a level to make the healer don heal you at all, if you DPS is low compared to going full DPS mode then you are bad, some times with a friend we go MT full dps mode, with zero mitigation and recive a lot of comendations for that, you can make healers life a hell is you dealt dps you go to be good, i not say this is correct or the form to be good, i mt and do dps bcs is the meta how required, but is pretty sad healers and tanks be judge by so many dps dealt in the encounter, and i hope they make a balance to the players feel rewarded by they tank/healing skills more that how many personal dps they do.