Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

I think if you stand back and just take a look at the concepts behind the subjob and combat systems of FFXI, you will "get it". If you never played a MMO older than WoW, then you will probably never "get it" unfortunately. I'm sure the devs could easily find a way to create that level of flavor in FF14 in a more contemporary way - they are exceptionally talented after all.

How do you describe a job in FFXI.....?
1. Weapon skills each with its own weapon abilities.
2. Active job abilities unlocked according to level
3. Passive job traits unlocked according to level
4. Magic skills with spells acquired through quests, drops, npc merchants and the player auction house
5. Level based stat bonuses

How do you describe a job/class in FFXIV?
1. A single weapon
2. Active abilities unlocked according to level (conceptually includes both spells and weapon abilities)
3. Passive traits unlocked according to level (job abilities do require a quest to complete)

So... not only are jobs in FFXI more inherently more complicated and interesting, but the sub job system added another level of interest. Would you take a subjob for the stat bonuses? What about the abilities or spells? Yes, there were combos designated as "required" by the community, but balance is always a thing with MMOs.

Things that made FFXI combat interesting (once again, ignore the pacing)....
1. Resistance play - not every mob or encounter would simply be nuked or cc'd with the same ability rotation. You would have to be smart about weapon abilities with elemental damage.
2. Crowd Control - encounters were designed to heavily encourage the use of crowd control. Here, while we have CC, its use is negligible.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Is it so bad that we don't have the "juhu, I do 100 dmg more with this element skill" moment anymore?
Even in 1.0 and 1.23 the difference between right element skill and wrong element skill was not very big.

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The point I was making is that elements were one way of adding a layer of complexity to combat, and a good one at that. For starters, Ifrit should be absorbing fire attacks not being blasted to bits with them, Ramuh should be laughing off lightning strikes and Titan should be swatting Stone casts like gnats. But nope. Not even elementals take reduced damage from their own element. That feels like the complete opposite of every other Final Fantasy game out there.

Having a reason to choose one skill over another is what we're lacking right now. And if elements would bring some of that back, I would welcome the change. Trouble is, it can't happen now because they've built the entire Black Mage class over a measly 3 elements. Black mage? More like a muddy-grey mage. If they added in absorption, resistance and weakness it would render the class utterly worthless.

We can't have it due to poor implementation and design by developers, fear that players are too dumb to understand or capable enough to utilize, and probably some story reason as a cop out.

-There will be no major job changes in 3.0. This has already been confirmed.
-They have low ambition of expanding on secondary stats.
-They view secondary progressions systems(FFXI: merit points, Rift: planar attunement) as just something that happens when the levels are too stagnate. We likely won't see this until after 3-4 level increases despite the fact we're rolling in xp that can't be used.
-Secondary abilities will never be game changing or provide meaningful choice options. -Main class abilities will fall under the same concept as there is no talent/skill mutually exclusive choices to define playstyles.
-They have little understanding of "clutch"/ "turn the tide" moments with reactive abilities/mechanics. They also don't know how to reward players properly for acting on reactive abilities.
-Development/implementation time is excruciatingly long. If we were to get it, it would take close to 6-7 months before we would see even the glimmer in their eye for it.
-THEY HAVE TERRIBLE CODE AND CANNOT FIX THIS AGGRO BS THAT HAS BEEN IN THE GAME SINCE RELEASE. HOW HARD IS IT FOR ENEMIES TO CANCEL THEIR IMMEDIATE ACTION, STOP CROSSING AN ENTIRE FIELD, AND GO TO A DAMNED TANK AND BEGIN THEIR ATTACKS AS SOON AS THE TARGET IS CHANGED? WHY IS THIS STILL AN ISSUE A YEAR LATER?

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Having a reason to choose one skill over another is what we're lacking right now.

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BLM still choose between their skills depending how many enemies are on one place, how much MP is still there, how good the tank can build enmity, how long the fight would last.

1 choice less is not the same as no choices.

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Trouble is, it can't happen now because they've built the entire Black Mage class over a measly 3 elements. Black mage? More like a muddy-grey mage.

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My opinion is that the solution to this would be putting all elemental spells back where they were originaly and give THM another job, like WHM (and give them their cone AoE back). They are priests after all and were the best healers while the CNJ were the ones who played with elements.

Even in the discussions which classes get WHM or BLM before the infos about it got announced, I was in the "give THM the WHM job" group.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And it's NOT only a year old. YoshiP has been on the project for a short time, but the game has been in development\reconstruction\planning\etc for over half a decade now. They really can't use the "it's brand, spanking new" excuse when they have almost 15 years experience in building mmos. The complexity should have been there from the start because you always want to improve upon your last project, and if nothing else, should certainly be working its way in there now, 5 years into the endeavor.

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Except that when it failed big time, they threw out the old game engine and recreated it to be more flexible with the new direction they were taking. I'm sorry, but when you create a brand new game engine, it is new. They are still learning all the "ins and outs" of it. The new game engine was built with a certain focus and direction and you can't use hindsight to say certain abilities should have been in there in the first place.


How about you try creating a new game engine then 1 year down the line everyone playing your game says you should have known better to add this and that when you were writing the code for it in the first place. Hindsight is *always* 100% but, not everyone has the same thought process. It probably wasn't put in *because* the people developing it can't think of every possible situation and outcome that can possibly ever come up. They quickly restructured the game the best they could and got it out back to us players as fast as they possibly could and all you can do is complain that they should have known better and added this or that or any other thing.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Except that when it failed big time, they threw out the old game engine

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Incorrect - The Crystal Tools engine was (and still is) used at SE, but Luminous is the one taking over at present time. They didn't "throw it out." They did what they did with FFXI, create an engine specifically for ARR.

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but when you create a brand new game engine, it is new.

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I don't think you know much about this area if you think this lol.

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They are still learning all the "ins and outs" of it.

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They know the "ins and outs" as it's a branched version of the Luminous Engine, something already been used within SE for a time now. ARR is "new", but most systems have been in XIV since 2010.

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Originally Posted by Felis

My opinion is that the solution to this would be putting all elemental spells back where they were originaly and give THM another job, like WHM (and give them their cone AoE back). They are priests after all and were the best healers while the CNJ were the ones who played with elements.

Even in the discussions which classes get WHM or BLM before the infos about it got announced, I was in the "give THM the WHM job" group.

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Always found it weird that the CNJs couldn't take advantage of fire, thunder and ice yet they are the "elementalists" of the game's lore.

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Originally Posted by Hioki

We can't have it due to poor implementation and design by developers, fear that players are too dumb to understand or capable enough to utilize, and probably some story reason as a cop out.
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-THEY HAVE TERRIBLE CODE AND CANNOT FIX THIS AGGRO BS THAT HAS BEEN IN THE GAME SINCE RELEASE. HOW HARD IS IT FOR ENEMIES TO CANCEL THEIR IMMEDIATE ACTION, STOP CROSSING AN ENTIRE FIELD, AND GO TO A DAMNED TANK AND BEGIN THEIR ATTACKS AS SOON AS THE TARGET IS CHANGED? WHY IS THIS STILL AN ISSUE A YEAR LATER?

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I agree with your points. However the last part... is that why in T7 the Lamias run to the middle of the fight when they spawn, instead of going to the tank?

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Originally Posted by Magis

Always found it weird that the CNJs couldn't take advantage of fire, thunder and ice yet they are the "elementalists" of the game's lore.

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1.0 Conjurer Spell list:

http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

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I agree with your points. However the last part... is that why in T7 the Lamias run to the middle of the fight when they spawn, instead of going to the tank?

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Because then it would be like FFXI and there's an obvious hate for anything and everything XI related here if they did their behaviors differently. The thing is, the enemies do switch their targets, but the server is what handles when/what they attack more so than the client in ARR's case.

XI lots of redundancy-ARR has lots of simplicity
XI most jobs use same interface but play differently mechanics wise-ARR most classes/jobs use same interface but play similarly mechanics wise
XI is unbalanced due to varied job mechanics-ARR is balanced due to similar job mechanics.
XI skill use mostly governed by tp/mp-ARR mostly governed by cooldown.

3 or 8 tier cures?Who cares. In one game combat is slower I have spurts of spam with more buttons/tiers & in the other combat so fast I spam all the time with less buttons/tiers. ARR feels more like playing GodOfWar than a Final Fantasy pace wise.

I'd like to see the cooldowns removed from all but each classes most powerful skills. The tp/mp cost raised to use skills & the damage raised. And some form of synergy system through whole fights. Skillchains, combos, regiment, Chrono Trigger's combos, anything. The goal should be less gauge watching, more player watching, support and beef each other up.

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Originally Posted by Felis

BLM still choose between their skills depending how many enemies are on one place, how much MP is still there, how good the tank can build enmity, how long the fight would last.

1 choice less is not the same as no choices.

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Black Mage gets what exactly? Spam fire until MP depletes, swap to Ice, go back to Fire once you've regened MP. Toss in a Thunder DoT for good measure when it drops. That's not really a 'choice', it's a rotation. And once you get into a rotation, it's pretty much the only way to play the class. Other jobs work in an identical fashion with their own rotations, excepting healers who at least are a bit more proactive.

I was absolutely furious when they removed half my nukes on Conjurer. This was, at the time, combined with a massive MP hike on spells meaning that I could literally cast only 4 cures before I was utterly drained. Still, I would have traded ALL of them to Thaumaturge if we'd still have something that still resembled a proper Black Mage.