It's not becoming a standard norm, DPSing as a healer always has been a thing. Why put to waste Cleric Stance and the offensive abilities the game gives you? There's so much downtime from healing anyway so better DPS rather than standing there doing nothing and looking like an idiot.
It's not bad game design. Healers are there to keep your HP high up and remove detrimental effects whenever necessary. That's mainly their job and if they're good at it then they're healing fine, but do you really have to heal all the time when everyone in the party is in good shape or not in dangerously low health? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
In my opinion, healers having the flexibility to DPS during fights is much better and fun than whatever game makes you spam heals 100% of the time. It's not like White Mages or other healers should be healing all the time in past FF games either, I mean I have my White Mage in my current FFT playthrough spam Holy all the time because it's so powerful.
I don't know what to think of you if you think spamming heals all the time when everyone is at full health and generating more enmity is fun and if you think DPSing as a healer is "bad" game design but to each their own.
Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!
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03-14-2016, 10:35 PMdinnertime
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03-14-2016, 11:13 PMKallera
I think I'd be more ok with dps healers if I could actually perform healing work as a DPS, and not the paltry sum offered by "Mug" either.
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03-14-2016, 11:24 PMChessala
I don't have a problem with dps-ing on my healers if the party allows it. Unfortunately, especially in DF this is often not the case because people plan suck. Tanks that don't use their CDs properly or still did not get the memo that STR is useless now - staying in AOEs is also very popular.
However, that healer had a retarded attitude. So he/she was pissy that they actually had to heal at all? That is pretty lame. I play healers because I like supporting and healing. If i have the freedom to support with some extra dps, I'll do that but I don't see it as my duty, responsibility or a necessity. I dps if and when I want to and if someone tries to tell me that DPS-ing is my DUTY, they better check their eyes. I can also not heal THEM and if they tell me that I should have, I'll be more than happy to remind that what they think my duty is :) -
03-14-2016, 11:28 PMsilentwindfr
i had an antitower, where the scholar simply didn't heal me from the start to the end, did leave it to the pixie. actually he did cast 3-4 heal max in the whole dungeon for be honest.
i find it kinda strange to think that SE did nerf to the ground the tank dps capacity and at the same time it did lead to the inverse.... the healer turning into dps more than healer. -
03-14-2016, 11:55 PMKaurieInteresting. I came to FFXIV solely because it was one of the few games I could find with a dedicated healer in a trinity form. Outside of WoW, this has been pretty hard to find. Tera and Wildstar both had it, but I found healing in those games to be frustrating rather than fun. Guild Wars 2 removed healers entirely and every one is just a glorified DPS with a self heal skill on a long cooldown (though I think they've sort-of added a healer with the recent expansion). WoW is really the only game I've played with a proper healer in recent years. Yes, I could go to WoW, and I may. However, I came to FFXIV because it advertised a similar trinity system that WoW has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
Perhaps you can give me some examples of great MMO's that cater to healers having to keep on their toes with healing?
I am not promoting or defending anything in the quote you provided. I was simply providing an example to explain the state of things in current expert dungeons. However, if you'd like to know my opinion(s):Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
- The current expert roulettes are a joke for difficulty, and I do not understand why they did this
- I play a healer to heal and help my team through clutch situations. Nothing in this game supports this feeling
- If it came down to afki'ing through a dungeon or DPSing through a dungeon on my SCH, I choose DPS
- If it came down to DPSing through a dungeon, or having damage output approximately 10-15x as much as it is now, while also being sporadic in who is needing heals (requiring thought, reflex, reactive and proactive measures etc) then I would choose healing [This would also require all healing skills MP be reduced, PIE be increased or some combination]
I disagree, even in raids and such, DPS from healers is very much a thing. Further, healing is way too predictable. I know exactly which person will be hit when for how much at any given point. Healing in Guild Wars 1 was much more involved and interesting even in just the open world (I use 'open world' loosely here as technically everything was instanced). To elaborate, a proactive measure in Guild Wars 1 would be - Oh i see a big ass mob running towards our caster, I'll start casting a big heal on the caster. A proactive measure in FFXIV is oh it's 2:43 into the fight, let's adlo the ranged DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by MomomiMomi
The bad game design is that players neither get detrimental effects, nor hurt in the current expert dungeons. The person quoted me, where I noted that I cast one spell for the purpose of healing someone for an entire 24 minute dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
TLDR: Healing in this game is easy. Healers can put out amazing DPS. If you don't DPS as a healer in this game, you're doing it wrong and you're a bad player. This system sucks, please make healers heal. -
03-15-2016, 01:46 AMLexia
I do think SE needs to up the damage so healers (mainly whm) can actually heal and not have to dps, cause the new dungeons are a joke hardly any healing needs to be done so yea gotta be in cleric stance doing dps which most the time I'm like no thanks and just stay on my ninja job cause might as well play my dps job if going to be dpsing.
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03-15-2016, 01:54 AMdinnertimeYou're wrong if you think raids, trials etc. also need minimal healing like in dungeons, especially something like savage raids and Sephirot EX which is such a healer-intensive fight during the adds phases. And predictable? During enrage, sure, but you're so incorrect about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
If nobody is taking damage or suffering detrimental effects in the expert dungeons then that could mean the party is good at avoiding all these bad things and the tank is good at mitigating damage with their own cooldowns, giving an easier life for the healer. If you actually want them to suffer more damage and debuffs just so you can have the satisfaction of healing them more then feel free to ask them to intentionally get hit by all the mechanics.
Healers are meant to DPS during downtime anyway. I mean, they were given Cleric Stance and were given offensive skills at 52-60, especially WHM with the most given like Aero III, Assize and Stone III.
Both healing and contributing to DPS means you're helping the party even more. Lacking in one means you're not playing the role as efficiently. It's been mentioned in the Novice Hall itself that healers should be casting damaging magicks if the party is fine so nobody can't really deny that healers weren't meant to DPS.
No other roles have such flexibility to heal other than the healer themselves. The tank can but it's not as efficient. You heal to keep the party up, that simply makes you a healer.
If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on. I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste. -
03-15-2016, 02:06 AMKallera
it seems like this is what is being promoted:
"Healers can dps" is different from "Healers have to dps" SE would like to promote the former, without making the latter the rule. this makes accuracy caps an important role in enforcing this. in easier content, healers will have the accuracy to dps if they choose, without making it mandatory to succeed(do to ilvl stats or easier difficulty), but in highler level content, you cannot force a healer to dps on something they cannot hit to begin with. -
03-15-2016, 02:12 AMTintmy problem is the downtime is almost 100%. when i am spending more time dpsing than healing than i think this is bad game design. especially with the lack of accuracy and mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
i was in there at day one, full blind run with minimum ilvl option and it already was a joke.
yes, a healer is meant to dps in his downtimes, i can agree to that. but i dislike the amount of downtimes. in the 2.x era i couldn't stay all day in cleric, so something HAS changed... -
03-15-2016, 02:14 AMAndreaThe only thing FFXIV would have that could be considered higher level content would be Savage. And good luck finding a static if you dont dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
The game simply put does not throw out the amount of damage needed for full time healing. If you were to just heal you would be doing an awful lot of standing around contributing nothing to your group.
Obviously being new, learning or first few times in a duty are an exception, but once you are used to a duty you should be dpsing when given the option to do so pretty much.