SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Do you have stats to back up your claim or a in game poll that suggest players are fine with the Summoner or are just waiting for square to make changes to the pet. The majority of players don't post in forums and I'm sure In have more than 3 people that agree with me since people make new forums about changing the Summoner every other week. There is a reason Black Mages outnumber Summoners 6:1 and it has nothing to do with damage it has to do with the pet design and appearance.

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You demand stats out of me then proceed to say that BLM outnumbers SMN on a 6 to 1 ration which is an outlandish claim if I'Ve ever seen one and with no source to back it up. Then you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

I'll bite.. I'm one of those people that aren't especially happy with the design choices they've made with SMN so far to be honest.

That isn't to say it's a broken or non-functional job because mechanically it works just fine, however to me personally it doesn't really feel like a Summoner. It does feel very much like Affliction Warlock from WoW which is kind of Ironic because i feel Demonology Warlock would have actually translated better to SMN in this game, Metamorphosis -> Esper form etc.

Something like this but obviously based on current Egi: http://www.wowwiki.com/Metamorphosis

See also: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/E..._Fantasy_VI%29

And: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Terra_Branford

As for changes / additions / anything else that isn't really my place to say as it is SMN is a great DoT DPS class just one that doesn't bring to mind the images of the traditional Final Fantasy summoner.

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One word can dismiss this entire suggestion: Lore. And like I've said plenty of time, the concept of a single player summoner cannot be introduce in a MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

You demand stats out of me then proceed to say that BLM outnumbers SMN on a 6 to 1 ration which is an outlandish claim if I'Ve ever seen one and with no source to back it up. Then you wonder why no one takes you seriously.




One word can dismiss this entire suggestion: Lore. And like I've said plenty of time, the concept of a single player summoner cannot be introduce in a MMORPG.

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Well actually the lore for something similar to Warlock's Metamorphosis isn't really all that far fetched with the information we've been given currently keep in mind I'm not saying SMN needs to be Demonology Warlock I'm just saying it actually could have fit rather nicely.

With what we know there really isn't anything so far that has implied that the energies SMN has borrowed/ripped/whatever you'd like to call it from Primals can ONLY be channeled outward into the forms we know as Egi's.

There really isn't anything leading us to believe that those same energies couldn't be channeled inwards to augment ourselves as well.

See: http://www.wowwiki.com/Metamorphosis once again please.

And a video in case it wasn't clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIDe8kaIu5U

Obviously it would take on the aspects of the Egi currently summoned rather than being a large purple demon.

If you read the links posted in my first post and in this one you'd realize that Metamorphosis for Demonology Warlock in WoW wasn't some huge AoE single player devastating old school Final Fantasy attack, which is by no means what i was suggesting, nor was i suggesting that Egi's should take on the larger full forms that were present in FFXI.

In fact the very reason i linked both the article on Espers and Terra is because doing so with Summoner could not only have worked in game but have been a massive throwback to a previous Final Fantasy title in name. I think there are more than quite a few people thinking everyone wants to summon The Magus Sisters and have them come down and do Delta attack for WTFBBQ amounts of damage but this isn't anywhere close.

You say Summoner from single player games wouldn't have worked here and i fully agree with you which is why i specifically linked a working example from another MMO

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

STOP. THIS. THREAD.

DEAR. JESUS.

I cant handle any more bad suggestions from people that know nothing about devolping a video game let alone an MMO.

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I hope this isn't a shot at Blizzard considering the current Summoner is basically ripped from Affliction Warlock to begin with, the only thing i've suggested was trading one copied WoW spec for another.

See: http://www.wowwiki.com/Affliction

As someone who as just rejoined the game from 1.0 and was ecstatic to try SMN, the design was extremely disappointing. I'm not 50 yet, so can't comment to heavily on late game, but here is the playstyle of the summoner I imagined.

1. Make the summons more specific, increase the number, and give them a duration and cooldown.
- In essence, treat summons like extended spells. Let me summon Ifrit for (slightly longer than) a GCD, allow him to stay on the field for ~20 seconds before disappearing and give him a minute cooldown. Get rid of Ifrit's utility and make him a nuker. The addition of more summons (some that cast debuffs, some that buff, some that tank i.e Titan) while increasing their specificity would give a SMN more situational control.

2. Add a few summons that cast additional DoTs necessary to maximize DPS.
- Make me summon Siren to throw on an aqua DoT and a silence debuff and then bring out Quezacotl to throw on an electric DoT and paralyze to keep my DPS at a maximum.
- This would keep in line with the DoT focus of ACN but allows you to accomplish it through your summons.


An example fight would go something like this.

>> Summon Madeen. Madeen casts shell on the entire party and gives a 10 second +spell speed buff, disappears immediately after buffs are cast.
>> Summon Titan. Titan roots the enemy and focuses his attention while you cast your DoTs.
>> Summon Quezacotl/Siren/Shiva/Leviathan. [Summon] debuffs and add their own DoTs to the target. Can also auto attack with other spells and disappear after ~30 secs.

"Oh no, I'm starting to take a bit of damage"

>> Summon Alexander. Alexander casts a divine shield on [target ally/yourself] and begins to take aggro from enemy. Titan acts as a pseudo tank but leaves the field after 10 seconds.

"Now I can reposition myself away from the enemy."

>> Summon Unicorn. Unicorn gives you/your party a HoT and begins casting cure/embrace. 5-10 seconds.

"My DoTs are in place and I'm alive."

>> Summon Ifrit. Ifrit begins to nuke the hell out of your enemy and you shred him to pieces. Ifrit will disappear after 20 seconds though so you can't just leave him out to fight.


Basically, each summon would last long enough to cast their own spells, provide utility or damage depending on the situation, but it is the summoners job to pick the best primal for the task at hand. Additionally, allowing the summon to last for 10-30 seconds gives you the option to control them (similar to the pets) and be in charge of their actions, but the disappearance and slightly longer cooldown times (1-3 minutes) forces you to use multiple summons per battle and implement their effects into your fight (i.e. so I can' just use Ifrit to nuke all my enemies down). To me, this would make SMN feel less like a pet class and more like the summoners of old, while keeping in line with the way the ACN class is currently set up.

Another option I've heard is to give each summon certain auras. This could take place of or be in conjunction with giving them a few specific skills.

Edit: From a more selfish level, I feel like this would also make it more convenient to make the summons more aesthetically pleasing. Make it feel like I'm summoning a primal not running around with a floating red pet behind me.

STOP. THIS. THREAD.

DEAR. JESUS.

I cant handle any more bad suggestions from people that know nothing about devolping a video game let alone an MMO.

Most people agree that the Summoner is a WoW Affliction Warlock without the Demonology art which gives the Warlock the ability to become the demon. Since WoW already showed that summoning magic can work in a MMORPG than why has Square given us a neutered WoW Warlock.
Some suggestions from WoW that'll improve upon the Summoner in Final Fantasy XIV
1. Give the Summoner an instant recast ability to absorb the Egi and become the Primal until they run out of mp.
2. Reskin the Egis so they are scaled down versions of the Primals.
3. Give the Egis a total of 8 abilities because 4 abilities is low for lvl 50 Summoner's

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Most people agree that the Summoner is a WoW Affliction Warlock without the Demonology art which gives the Warlock the ability to become the demon. Since WoW already showed that summoning magic can work in a MMORPG than why has Square given us a neutered WoW Warlock.
Some suggestions from WoW that'll improve upon the Summoner in Final Fantasy XIV
1. Give the Summoner an instant recast ability to absorb the Egi and become the Primal until they run out of mp.
2. Reskin the Egis so they are scaled down versions of the Primals.
3. Give the Egis a total of 8 abilities because 4 abilities is low for lvl 50 Summoner's

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Yup

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo87pkryF21qdmlhk.gif

Wait wait wait, now people want to just become Primals instead of summon them?

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/58/58b6...861c5ece40.jpg

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Originally Posted by Akiza

1. Give the Summoner an instant recast ability to absorb the Egi and become the Primal until they run out of mp.

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1) The effect is your raid gets wiped due to inability to sufficiently control the Primal's power.
2) Your entire team gets "tempered" and cannot attack for 10 second
3) Summoner dies

Choose 2.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

1) The effect is your raid gets wiped due to inability to sufficiently control the Primal's power.
2) Your entire team gets "tempered" and cannot attack for 10 second
3) Summoner dies

Choose 2.

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If the Summoner becomes the Primal they would use mp to attack and once their mp is zero the Primal form would be banished like a regular summon.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

If the Summoner becomes the Primal they would use mp to attack and once their mp is zero the Primal form would be banished like a regular summon.

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Sorry, that isn't one of the options I listed. Would you like to try again?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Sorry, that isn't one of the options I listed. Would you like to try again?

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You know he's going to keep trying, failing every time and expecting a different result. There's a word for that.

All I'm saying is WoW already made Summoning work and a template on how to properly adapt a Summoning class to a mmorpg with the Warlock Demonology specialization. Square Enix decided to make a poor mans Affliction Warlock instead of properly adapting the Summoner to a mmorpg.

Again, Akiza shows how little they know of other MMO's.

As an avid WoWer, I can personally say that Demo(nology) has -very- little to deal with summoning as the Final Fantasy series shows it. The only "summons" Demo has are a proc on dot crit and 2 10-minute shared cooldown that are AoE vs Single target guardians. Other then that they stick to the Doomguard or it's upgraded version the Wraithguard. Which is exactly what we have as SMN stands currently. The other two spec's Aff(liction) and Destro(uction) either kill their pet for personal power or a single pet based on the respective spec.

I dont remember any summoner class from the ff series casting afflictions that act like poison on enemies. Rename this current class you brought to the game to Necromancer, as its more fitting. (Dont really do that, but you cant argue the logic that the summoner in this game is nothing like where its concept came from)

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

Again, Akiza shows how little they know of other MMO's.

As an avid WoWer, I can personally say that Demo(nology) has -very- little to deal with summoning as the Final Fantasy series shows it. The only "summons" Demo has are a proc on dot crit and 2 10-minute shared cooldown that are AoE vs Single target guardians. Other then that they stick to the Doomguard or it's upgraded version the Wraithguard. Which is exactly what we have as SMN stands currently. The other two spec's Aff(liction) and Destro(uction) either kill their pet for personal power or a single pet based on the respective spec.

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I think a few people especially Akiza are misunderstanding what i meant when i posted the Metamorphosis / Demonology links, I was NOT suggesting by any means the ability to transform into a primal, that is way way off base.

I was suggesting that it would make sense for a SMN to use the power taken from a primal to not only summon an Egi but to also amplify/augment their own abilities similar to Metamorphosis but in this case it would be called something along the lines of Esper (For a Final Fantasy reference). in fact i would say rework Enkindle or add a new ability to do so. If anything the form would be closer to that of an Egi not taking the form of a god <.<

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Originally Posted by Alazier

I dont remember any summoner class from the ff series casting afflictions that act like poison on enemies. Rename this current class you brought to the game to Necromancer, as its more fitting. (Dont really do that, but you cant argue the logic that the summoner in this game is nothing like where its concept came from)

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This summoner could do that

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This summoner could do that

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If you're going to use that as a point then the argument could be made based on her spell list alone that SMN as a job would have been better served as a branch of the THM or even CNJ classes as opposed to advancing from ACN

(which i would also agree with)

In regards to Summoner from FFIV since you linked Rydia you might want to have linked this:

Summoners also apparently can wield magic quite efficiently, and Rydia as a child can cast White and Black Magic. According to Rosa Joanna Farrell, Summoners are naturally attuned to Black Magic, and when Rydia is taken to the Land of Summons and returns, her abilities at both Summoning and Black Magic have increased, but her ability to cast White Magic was lost in the process.

See: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/S..._Fantasy_IV%29

In fact this is more common in most renditions of Summoner in Final Fantasy where Summoner is an actual named job:

In some games, summoners also have the ability to cast either Black Magic or White Magic as well as to summon, thus making them more versatile.

See:http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Summoner_%28Job%29

And before someone tries to claim that this applies to single player only games i haven't even mentioned the Summons themselves in this post at all.

I don't understand where this sense of being duped/misled is coming from. ? There's a list of skills with plain descriptions that you can view from lvl 1. I'm enjoying SMN pretty well. As for some of the things that've been discussed, I don't think we should get bigger/crazier primals. Not that it would really go against the "you're the legendary only hero at the same time as everyone else in the world" plotline or anything, but everybody being able to turn into/summon bigger wilder summons, just seems a bit over-the-top plot/lore/immersion-wise to me. Who knows though, in practice it could be awesome and fun, just how I feel. Danke. :D

Basically, Summoner should be worthless except for every time they can cast a limit break level attack every 5 minutes

How about this: if you dislike the class, stop playing it and complaining about it...

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This summoner could do that

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Rydia was Summoner that could use Black Magic and some White Magic but she never specialized in affliction magic.

Affliction magic? ...Do you mean Black Magic, which Bio always fell into? And are you already forgetting Physick and Resurrection, which are healing magic, which kinda falls in the White Magic camp? Are you complaining that Summoners have all the tricks of the trade?

Looking at the source material of the Summoner is race of people born with the power of Summoning that has Black Mage or White Mage as a secondary job.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Shay

Affliction magic? ...Do you mean Black Magic, which Bio always fell into? And are you already forgetting Physick and Resurrection, which are healing magic, which kinda falls in the White Magic camp? Are you complaining that Summoners have all the tricks of the trade?

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Summoner's don't have all the tricks of the trade since Rydia could use all Black Mage spells as well as a few White Mage abilities.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Looking at the source material of the Summoner is race of people born with the power of Summoning that has Black Mage or White Mage as a secondary job.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner's don't have all the tricks of the trade since Rydia could use all Black Mage spells as well as a few White Mage abilities.

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Only two games featured Summoners as a race...try again. Secondly, Summoners of 14 have offensive and supportive abilities. Your reference to "source material" never seems to include the current game, which is the point. Final Fantasy games have no continuity in lore. Dagger and Eiko were Summoner/White Mages, so Summoners should be Conjurers in this game. See, I can do it too.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Rydia was Summoner that could use Black Magic and some White Magic but she never specialized in affliction magic.

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She did specialize in it. You're just not looking hard enough.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Shay

Only two games featured Summoners as a race...try again. Secondly, Summoners of 14 have offensive and supportive abilities. Your reference to "source material" never seems to include the current game, which is the point. Final Fantasy games have no continuity in lore. Dagger and Eiko were Summoner/White Mages, so Summoners should be Conjurers in this game. See, I can do it too.

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Not true all classes/jobs used past Final Fantasy titles as their source material for lore the only exception is the Summoner in Final Fantasy XIV. Dagger and Eiko's primary job was a white mage while their secondary job was a Summoner but when the Summoner is the primary job then the Black Mage is the secondary job.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

She did specialize in it. You're just not looking hard enough.

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Rydia only used two spells from the Summoner we have right now which are poison and bio which correspond to bio and bio II that's it from the affliction mage the rest of her skills are mainly Black Mage abilities with a few cure and resurrection spells from the White Mage

Square Enix should give the Summoner the ability to absorb the Egi and summon the Primalsc with a reasonable cost.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Rydia only used two spells from the Summoner we have right now which are poison and bio which correspond to bio and bio II that's it from the affliction mage the rest of her skills are mainly Black Mage abilities with a few cure and resurrection spells from the White Mage

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So you're basically saying, Poison and Bio should go to Black Mage and Summoner should only have summons. Thus Summoner should have no attacks only summons, that come in do one big attack and go away until you can get mana back. Then you can just use Mage's Ballad for all your MP back and do it again. Sounds like you'd make a great FFXI dev.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/266309376/h1D0524A5/
In 87 pages everything that can be said on this subject has been said. SE has knows your opinions at this point. You will never convince those on the other side that you are right. Just let this die. If you have fun as a sum play one, if you don't, don't, but this thread serves no purpose anymore.

SMN is actually really amazing. Sorry it isn't what you hoped, but it's a lot of fun. Moreso than any other ranged class, certainly.

Beside ninja I'm actually going to work on Smn. Thus will b my first caster jobs in any mmo or games I've played. Always been physical dealer or tank. Heck I'm also lacking a whm ATM again first time healing in any mmo, Damm I'm getting out of my comfort zone. So can u guys direct me to Smn page so I can and what I need to do in terms or rotations and fear set up.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

So you're basically saying, Poison and Bio should go to Black Mage and Summoner should only have summons. Thus Summoner should have no attacks only summons, that come in do one big attack and go away until you can get mana back. Then you can just use Mage's Ballad for all your MP back and do it again. Sounds like you'd make a great FFXI dev.

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Yes Bio,Miasma and Poisons should go back to the Black Mage and the Summoner should get the real Arcane Magic abilities such as Dark, Death, Break, Syphon while keeping ruin, ruin II, and changing drain so it restores hp.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Square Enix should give the Summoner the ability to absorb the Egi and summon the Primalsc with a reasonable cost.

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So basically your main and only complaint is superficial. If the Egi looked like small primals you would have no issue with the class at all. Kind of hollow do you think?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Yes Bio,Miasma and Poisons should go back to the Black Mage and the Summoner should get the real Arcane Magic abilities such as Dark, Death, Break, Syphon while keeping ruin, ruin II, and changing drain so it restores hp.

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Ah those are traditional BLM spells to.

What SE really need to do is have Miasma II work with fester.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So basically your main and only complaint is superficial. If the Egi looked like small primals you would have no issue with the class at all. Kind of hollow do you think?

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No visual presentation is an important aspect of the pets as well.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Ah those are traditional BLM spells to.

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But those moves fit better with the Arcanist lore then Bio, Miasma and Poison spells.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

But those moves fit better with the Arcanist lore then Bio, Miasma and Poison spells.

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That's irrelevant because they are Black Mage skills. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You know, with Ramuh and Levi (later Shiva too) comming soon, I really wish for an ability to shift the summoned egi with a passive party boost, depending on the egi you shift into - as in Ifrit gives Str+, Garuda gives SS+, Titan gives Vit+ etc. (maybe for the cost of 1 Aetherflow or just 1min CD).

That way, you'll still have to resummon if your egi when it's dead but it'll also bring more dynamic elements to the summoner.
We just need more dynamics with our summons and attacks that vary, depending on what egi is currently on the field - Tri-Disaster would be the best ability to do that (Like Enkindle).

But alas, the devs just give that class the shaft as they either don't bother or aren't bold enough to make it interesting.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

No visual presentation is an important aspect of the pets as well.

But those moves fit better with the Arcanist lore then Bio, Miasma and Poison spells.

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This is further proof that you don't know the lore. Arcanists are tacticians who manipulate the field to support their allies, summoned or not. This means that DoTs and abilities that hinder their enemies are thematically appropriate.