ARR Gil Cap Reduction

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I believe Yoshida said himself that part of the reason for the change was simply to not have big numbers just because. Having lower numbers makes things easier to work with.

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He said it was because of arrows, which is funny and makes so sense.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The whole reason for this change is to rectify the increase in cost of items relative to the price of arrows, since archers in A Realm Reborn will no longer need arrows

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Sounds legit lmao. ARROWS ARE THE BACKBONE OF OUR ECONOMY THEY'RE SUPER IMPORTANT!

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Originally Posted by Mijin

He said it was because of arrows, which is funny and makes so sense.



Sounds legit lmao. ARROWS ARE THE BACKBONE OF OUR ECONOMY THEY'RE SUPER IMPORTANT!

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ya make no fucking sense to me

Just because the reason for an action is bad does not mean the action itself is bad.

Plus, we're talking about a decision which was made by many people, all with their own reasons for liking/disliking the decision. These reasons were then mostly cast aside and summarized by one man. This summary was then translated and given to us. We are now taking full liberty to interpret this however we see fit. And for some reason we think our interpretation, of the translation, of the summary of several reasons is the core reason, and because it sucks, the whole change itself sucks?

Edit: I suppose SE did set themselves up for this sort of reaction when they said, and I quote: "I'd like to make it clear that we have no other agenda in wanting to reduce the amount of gil everyone has currently." I personally believe this is poorly translated, however, and is supposed to mean "We aren't doing this to screw you. We really do have good intentions at heart."

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

In what way? the entire economy change is universal and equal, the player- based side of it will merely adapt to this, as anything else.

In what way is anything diminished?

Please use examples.

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To simply assume that removing 90% of the gil in the game will have zero impact on all players' economic posture, as dictated by simple supply/demand principles is not, in itself, necessarily true. This is only true if the (future) ability to make gil is, in fact, reduced to the same extent.

If the ability to make gil in the future is unchanged, then, in affect, SE simply took 90% of your gil. A new player, just starting the game will have the same earning ability as you have experienced over the last two years, and with very little effort will quickly achieve the 10% SE left you with, thereby, essentially, wiping out all your hard work of the last two years.

If, however, the ability to make gil is 10x more difficult than 1.0, which would then be in exact correlation with the gil reduction, a new player would have to work comparably as hard as you or I did to amass the same 10% gil SE has left us with. If, and only if, this is the case, can you then say this is transparent or irrelative. If the future ability to make gil is anything less than 10x more difficult, it essentially narrows the gap for new players (as it relates to our starting position for 2.0) since they will be acquiring worth at a greater rate than you or I did over the past 2 years.

I'm not saying this is so, but I defy anyone to say it isn't, because you simply don't know, and neither do I, but it's hard for me to believe that SE would do this without purpose. - that purpose being a substantial leveling of the playing field for established players vs. new. If, in fact, this is the case, then we've been lyed to, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by zzapp

To simply assume that removing 90% of the gil in the game will have zero impact on all players' economic posture, as dictated by simple supply/demand principles is not, in itself, necessarily true. This is only true if the (future) ability to make gil is, in fact, reduced to the same extent.

If the ability to make gil in the future is unchanged, then, in affect, SE simply took 90% of your gil. A new player, just starting the game will have the same earning ability as you have experienced over the last two years, and with very little effort will quickly achieve the 10% SE left you with, thereby, essentially, wiping out all your hard work of the last two years.

If, however, the ability to make gil is 10x more difficult than 1.0, which would then be in exact correlation with the gil reduction, a new player would have to work comparably as hard as you or I did to amass the same 10% gil SE has left us with. If, and only if, this is the case, can you then say this is transparent or irrelative. If the future ability to make gil is anything less than 10x more difficult, it essentially narrows the gap for new players (as it relates to our starting position for 2.0) since they will be acquiring worth at a greater rate than you or I did over the past 2 years.

I'm not saying this is so, but I defy anyone to say it isn't, because you simply don't know, and neither do I, but it's hard for me to believe that SE would do this without purpose. - that purpose being a substantial leveling of the playing field for established players vs. new. If, in fact, this is the case, then we've been lyed to, plain and simple.

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arent you forgetting quest reward will be 1/10 also?

no one ever said that after 2.0 making gil would be easy hell they even said they were reducing EVERYTHING (not including market wards since that is player controlled) down to 1/10. Everything from Leves to npc's

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...748#post831748

go read that again it's all in red

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Originally Posted by Shougun

sidedown.

Either you are trolling us or a week into 2.0 you will be like "oh man, I need to change my character name so no one can remember I was that dude".

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He better change his name. I'm keeping this sign lol.

Any other takers for a slot? Its about time some people who post a lot on these forums were held accountable for their idiocy and/or trolling.

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Originally Posted by zzapp

If, however, the ability to make gil is 10x more difficult than 1.0, which would then be in exact correlation with the gil reduction, a new player would have to work comparably as hard as you or I did to amass the same 10% gil SE has left us with. If, and only if, this is the case, can you then say this is transparent or irrelative. If the future ability to make gil is anything less than 10x more difficult, it essentially narrows the gap for new players (as it relates to our starting position for 2.0) since they will be acquiring worth at a greater rate than you or I did over the past 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

The amount of gil received as rewards for content and monster drops in A Realm Reborn will be 1/10th of what they are currently.

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Case. Closed. ^^

which mean new player from ps3 will struggle in hell to get gils and old player from this version will dominate the world !

600 gills from a leve instead of 6k! you can have that! do 20 000 of them if you want something cool!

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Originally Posted by Tactic

which mean new player from ps3 will struggle in hell to get gils and old player from this version will dominate the world !

600 gills from a leve instead of 6k! you can have that! do 20 000 of them if you want something cool!

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Our gil is cut by the same ratio. For all intents and purposes 600 gil (2.0) = 6000 gil (1.0).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Our gil is cut by the same ratio. For all intents and purposes 600 gil (2.0) = 6000 gil (1.0).

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Precisely.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Think of ARR gil as a new currency. Call it "Yoshi gil" in your head if it helps. Think of your current gil as "Tanaka gil". FFXIV:ARR doesn't accept Tanaka gil. Think of it as a foreign country. To spend your money there you need to have your Tanaka gil converted to the local currency, Yoshi gil. The conversion rate is 10 Tanaka gil to 1 Yoshi gil.

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You sir, or madam, are a genius. I was prepping a big image file with shiny blue balls and big red dogs to illustrate that point, but you saved me the trouble <3

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Originally Posted by zzapp

If the ability to make gil in the future is unchanged, then, in affect, SE simply took 90% of your gil.

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Reserves -90%. Income -90%. Expenditures -90%. All 3 seem accounted for based on their official statements. Ratios of all 3 should remain unchanged unless people are stupid/dbags. The only difference is the number. If the government says 10 miles now = 1 neo-mile, that doesn't mean your car with only 10,000 neo-miles on it doesn't have a helluva lotta miles on it. The distance your car has travelled has remained unchanged. The only difference is the arbitrary denomination of that distance we choose to use.

Noctis, remember page 65? or should i say post #644?

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Its all good. I think this thread has run its course. Nothing left to do but wait.

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I guess I was wrong...

So i'm gunna throw another log on the fire:

Remember when France converted from the French Franc to the Euro? Prices of food amongst other things have never been more expensive.

Okay so international economics might be slightly more convuluted and complicated than our in game economy. But the point is converting one form of currency into a more/less valuable form of currency carries unintended consequences and the price of goods after will never be equal to their price before hand. Thinking that players will price goods and services for 1/10th their current value is naive.

But really what does this have to do with removing arrows from the archer class? Why is SE trying to mask this anti-inflationary measure by claiming it's the arrows fault?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...rabbit-001.jpg

I blame the rabbit.

Also a lot of people are posting knee jerk reactions without giving much thought.

Now let's consider the primary topic of discussion in this thread: how the player-driven market will respond to this new denomination.

A lot of us seem keen on discussing whether prices will drop to 10%, how quickly they'll drop, or even if they'll drop at all. Everyone is so keen on predicting the impact of this redenomination as a lone variable, when in fact it isn't.

Consider the timing of this redenomination. We're entering a new game, for all intents and purposes, where some items that currently exist are to be destroyed (converted to gil), new items are to be introduced , and the rest are to have new values based on balance changes and DoH/L changes. Essentially, even if there was no redenomination to be done and we were to enter ARR with our current inflated gil values, the market would still be drastically different than it is now.

Prices in the market fluctuate by large values all the time based on supply and ever changing demand. So expecting prices to remain as they are now in 1.0 after we move to ARR is already far fetched.

After we accept that prices will drop drastically in the market due to the new denomination of gil, discussing whether or not they will drop to 10% is ludicrous when so many stronger variables are at work. Why discuss whether a material will drop in price from 3k to 300 each when gathering and crafting changes can easily have that value fluctuate anywhere between 100 and 1k or more?

TL;DR: They couldn't have picked a better time to redenominate gil since the player driven market will already need to rebalance after we switch to ARR due to balance and DoH/L changes.

I still blame the rabbit

A little interlude I'm sure will lighten everyone's heart

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1tikkotVU

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Okay so international economics might be slightly more convuluted and complicated than our in game economy. But the point is converting one form of currency into a more/less valuable form of currency carries unintended consequences and the price of goods after will never be equal to their price before hand. Thinking that players will price goods and services for 1/10th their current value is naive.

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How exactly is that naive? The math supports it. Granted, it will probably not be exactly 1/10. Partly because of the human element, and partly because of changes in the game not directly related to gil. So what will the actual ratio be? Roughly half the people posting in this thread seem convinced that it will be worse than 1/10 (meaning more expensive). I can just as easily call them naive for not thinking things will become cheaper.

The exact cost people will be willing to sell things for is unknown to all of us who are not clairvoyant. I claim it will be roughly equal, and the math supports this theory. Others claim it will be worse, because the math isn't everything, and the human element is more substantial. I hope after the update those people stupidly want my stuff for the old prices. But how long could they afford to be so wasteful?

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

Granted, it will probably not be exactly 1/10.

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That's the problem. That's what I have been waiting out this horrible thread to try bring out again. If the price of an item sells for 1000 Tanaka gil ends up settling at just 200 Yoshi gil in ARR that's a 100% markup...

How much of an impact this denomination has on the new economy will largely depend on demand and supply and not the availability of gil. The only governing power to depress prices will be NPC shops, and NPC shops don't sell HQ items. And NPCs will not sell everything in the game.

How many of you know exactly how much everything costs in the game markets right now? How can you guarantee that you won't accidentally buy something at too high of a Yoshi gil price? I'm having a bit of an experiment. Before the servers go down, I'm going to record the prices of certain items in the Market Wards. Immediately, after ARR launches I'll record prices again and then again some months after, to see how prices settle.

It will be uneven, not a straight across the board 10%. I believe that the redenomination will cost us more in the long run. It's just a question of how much?

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

How exactly is that naive? The math supports it. Granted, it will probably not be exactly 1/10. Partly because of the human element, and partly because of changes in the game not directly related to gil. So what will the actual ratio be? Roughly half the people posting in this thread seem convinced that it will be worse than 1/10 (meaning more expensive). I can just as easily call them naive for not thinking things will become cheaper.

The exact cost people will be willing to sell things for is unknown to all of us who are not clairvoyant. I claim it will be roughly equal, and the math supports this theory. Others claim it will be worse, because the math isn't everything, and the human element is more substantial. I hope after the update those people stupidly want my stuff for the old prices. But how long could they afford to be so wasteful?

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It could last for a while considering that the people who will be willing to buy the items you overprice might be the ones that complain about 2d grass, ask for jump without considering character collision, and so on. Yup, math isn't everything, and if you don't take the human factor and how stupid people can be in consideration, you're just good to knit yourself a pair of panties with your numbers and equations.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

no one ever said that after 2.0 making gil would be easy hell they even said they were reducing EVERYTHING (not including market wards since that is player controlled) down to 1/10. Everything from Leves to npc's

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...748#post831748

go read that again it's all in red

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Case. Closed. ^^

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OK, consider me among the converted. Let's just hope that SE lives up to what they're promising here.

For those who are still unsure of this, kindly consider this - the total monetary base of this game is decided soley by SE. It's a combination of what they allow as an opening gil position, and what they introduce into the game as NEW gil from leves and other rewards and npc selling prices. That's it. It's that simple. When you farm or craft items and sell them, you're not 'creating' gil, but, rather shifting worth in the current base.

Sorry I didn't catch this @ first read, and thanks for redirecting my attention. Toodles.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

That's the problem. That's what I have been waiting out this horrible thread to try bring out again. If the price of an item sells for 1000 Tanaka gil ends up settling at just 200 Yoshi gil in ARR that's a 100% markup...

How much of an impact this denomination has on the new economy will largely depend on demand and supply and not the availability of gil. The only governing power to depress prices will be NPC shops, and NPC shops don't sell HQ items. And NPCs will not sell everything in the game.

How many of you know exactly how much everything costs in the game markets right now? How can you guarantee that you won't accidentally buy something at too high of a Yoshi gil price? I'm having a bit of an experiment. Before the servers go down, I'm going to record the prices of certain items in the Market Wards. Immediately, after ARR launches I'll record prices again and then again some months after, to see how prices settle.

It will be uneven, not a straight across the board 10%. I believe that the redenomination will cost us more in the long run. It's just a question of how much?

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Like I've been repeatedly saying Hiir, the prices changes cannot be attributed entirely to the redenomination since there are other, at least as powerful variables in play.

Your experiment would not prove anything.

No, prices will not settle around 10% globally. However this is not due entirely to the new denomination.

Well, the prevailing view is that everyone will price their items at 10% the current prices because no one will be able to or want to buy items at any more than that. I don't agree with that and I want to see if it will come to pass or not. It will also be nice to bring it up in this thread later as much as people hate necro posting.... I plan to do that.

I see that people are backing off a bit now that it's becoming apparent how unlikely it is that items will be prices at 10% the current price.

I'm planning on the mark up being about 100% on commonly needed items, but I'm thinking it will be more than that. Granted, we'll all have to get used to the new way of the world, however, now is a crucial time to position yourself because we'll never have it this good when it comes to gil ever again.

The winners in the gil-race are being decided right now. :)

I suppose we can all agree that the player market wouldn't simply and cleanly drop to 10% of current values with a redenomination, as there will be people trying to take advantage of it. However we'll never know since they cleverly chose to do the redenomination in the midst of a massive market change which is the transition to ARR.

In conclusion, people who think there will be a clean drop in prices to 10% are just as naive as people who think that it won't drop to 10% entirely due to the redenomination are.

I think people are looking at this all wrong. Stop worrying about what you might have to pay for current items in ARR. ARR is going to have new items. The difficulty and rarity of obtaining those items will be distinct. Those items will have their price determined by supply/demand. This is the very reason I'm not about to start investing in expensive multi-melds or stockpile materials right now. You're free to gamble on something being worth more in ARR but they could just as easily be worth less (or... worthless). Think about those Crab Bow +3s.

I remember when I had finally managed to make myself Jade Hora +2 the patch that made them dated and useless came the next week.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Well, the prevailing view is that everyone will price their items at 10% the current prices because no one will be able to or want to buy items at any more than that. I don't agree with that and I want to see if it will come to pass or not. It will also be nice to bring it up in this thread later as much as people hate necro posting.... I plan to do that.

I see that people are backing off a bit now that it's becoming apparent how unlikely it is that items will be prices at 10% the current price.

I'm planning on the mark up being about 100% on commonly needed items, but I'm thinking it will be more than that. Granted, we'll all have to get used to the new way of the world, however, now is a crucial time to position yourself because we'll never have it this good when it comes to gil ever again.

The winners in the gil-race are being decided right now. :)

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Hiir - If SE reduces everyone's gil by 90%, AND if they also reduce the amount of gil they introduce to the game in the form of rewards and npc selling prices by the same 90% then, IN THE LONG RUN, simple mathematics will DICTATE that prices across the board will fall to that same degree. It can be no other way. Players simply won't have the gil to meet all their needs otherwise.

That being said, however, this will NOT be the case @ the start of 2.0, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong. Only time will prove this out, and only thru time will this stabilize. The danger in this transition is a player buying or selling an item out of line with the new economic setting.

To illustrate, take this simple example. Today an item sells for 100g. In 2.0, in theory, this item should now sell for 10g. If one is willing to pay, say, 50g for said item, bad choice. If another is willing to pay 5g for the same item, good choice. This won't necessarily be that easy to discern at the start. Given that, I don't agree that the gil race is being decided right now. The gil race is yet to be decided and won't be decided until 2.0, where you either buy smart or dumb, not unlike today. In other words, whether you stock up on items/goods and hope to catch people off guard with an inflated price, or whether you sit on a large stockpile of cash and only buy when the price is < economic worth is really irrelavent. There's gil to be made with both approaches.

Perhap best summary of this is the old adage - Let the buyer beware.

It's going to be a very lucrative opportunity for those who take risks in futures trading.

buy all my stuff so I can finally reach cap gil.

So, I have this friend he started out with 300k this month. He now has 3mil, sad part is when 2.0 comes out he is back down to where he started. All that time he spent trying to get some gil wasted. On a side note we were able to laugh it off but still felt very sad in the end.

I view it like this, we are all veterans here and we have helped SE build 2.0 by supporting them for the past 2 years. Now that 2.0 is coming out, SE has shown that they care more about the newer players coming in than they do about the veterans. I came to this conclusion bec instead of allowing us veteran players to keep the gil we have and just limiting the prices for all the newer players, they take 9/10 of what we have worked so hard to earn in the past 2 years. This to me shows they care more about the upcoming members than they do about the ones who made 2.0 possible. Not to mention they said they would not take anything from us, well I guess they lied.

You can say this is not a change all you want, but the matter is it is. We are having 9/10 of what we earned taken away, and the only change accompanying this is the NPC prices, which lets be honest no one buys items (unless their materials) from npcs. So that change is not going to benefit anyone really other than the crafters. Another thing, the market wards are all player controlled, so all the prices are going to stay the same for quite some time. So all in all us veteran players get screwed over on 2.0 release :(. The more gil you have the more you lose.

*Adds Flower to the list right after Dubont*

Can you do me a favor Flower? I have this dilemma, see... I want to add you to my sig, but unfortunately your post is far too long. Would you mind expressing your complete lack of understanding in a shorter post?

Thanks in advance!

Actually Flower I tend to buy from the npc's alot (and it's not mats that I'm buying either actually i've only bought mats twice from an npc the rest is gear and arrows) sometimes for the hell of it a lot of times for the convience especially if I'm in the area where said things to sell so saying no one buys from npcs is not a good generalization because there are people who do.

That's not even it Rannie. Flower here thinks, like a few others, that the player-controlled market will remain unchanged when every player suddenly has 10% of the gil they used to and all forms of generating gil give only 10% of what they used to.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

*Adds Flower to the list right after Dubont*

Can you do me a favor Flower? I have this dilemma, see... I want to add you to my sig, but unfortunately your post is far too long. Would you mind expressing your complete lack of understanding in a shorter post?

Thanks in advance!

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I've been on a different forum with Dubont before. He was awful then too.

http://i45.tinypic.com/oucirt.jpg

He was banned for being racist.

Noctis, at first, there will be people who will try and keep prices high due to them "losing all their money." They'll find out pretty quickly that it won't work, just like the people who put stuff up for insanely high prices now.

I truly hope the Auction House we're getting takes the tax up front like it did in XI. Shoot those people in the foot for trying to overcharge for crap when they're well aware that the value of 1 gil has been drastically lowered increased.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

That's not even it Rannie. Flower here thinks, like a few others, that the player-controlled market will remain unchanged when every player suddenly has 10% of the gil they used to and all forms of generating gil give only 10% of what they used to.

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blah sorry I kinda just woke up and it's my day off lol not 100% awake yet *rubs eyes*

and Kiria no one is saying that won't happen but after people start under cutting them to sell their stuff that will cause people to lower their prices in the wards. kinda saying the same thing there but there are a lot of people who are thinking this way. Now for the taxes no clue honestly. Yoshi never said that there will be the taxes and he didn't say that there wasn't going to be. So I won't make any assumptions on that yet.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Noctis, at first, there will be people who will try and keep prices high due to them "losing all their money." They'll find out pretty quickly that it won't work, just like the people who put stuff up for insanely high prices now.

I truly hope the Auction House we're getting takes the tax up front like it did in XI. Shoot those people in the foot for trying to overcharge for crap when they're well aware that the value of 1 gil has been drastically lowered.

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Sorry but I think you mean the value of the gil will be increased in 2.0 not lowered.

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Originally Posted by Flower

Sorry but I think you mean the value of the gil will be increased in 2.0 not lowered.

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Oops! It's currently worthless. It'll be worth more in A Realm Reborn.

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Originally Posted by Flower

Sorry but I think you mean the value of the gil will be increased in 2.0 not lowered.

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A New Hope!

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

A New Hope!

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Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper? (I've watched the whole original trilogy for Star Wars too damn much *sweat drops*)