Tale of Emet [FF14 x Nier Reincarnation event story]

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Would be a bit weird to frame this as a villainous thing tbh. Like yes, don’t try to repair yourself and undo a calamity even though that’s the very thing the heroes have done time and time again lmao.

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When trying to repair yourself would involve murdering other sapient being for there souls, yes it would be seen as villainous, when have the Scions done literally anything equivalent to that? I know your really biased against them but come on, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

They'd be, what, 5/14 at best before coming for an 8/14 Scion (or 9 in G'raha's case)? Plus, if we killed them there'd be no reason for whoever the target was to not become unsundered at that point. Maybe if the writers had the stones to do anything 'bad' with the Scions they could become a new unsundered adversary, but given their track record I don't see that happening.

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Ardbert was 1/14 and he stood toe to toe with us. People keep treating rejoinings like this simple game of addition or subtraction but if it actually worked that way then Ardberts crew would have been mopped up by random Source bandits and the plot of Shadowbringers would make no sense at all.

Seriously, why can Lyna keep up with the Scions if being 1/14 is some objective handicap. Why can't any random Scion chop off Ranjit's head with a casual flick?

Why would Voidsent or Sin Eaters be any threat at all if it worked as simple as that? By the logic some people are using any Aether they could store or corrupt would be so minimal compared to people from the Source that Tataru's carbuncle could solo them.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

When trying to repair yourself would involve murdering other sapient being for there souls, yes it would be seen as villainous, when have the Scions done literally anything equivalent to that? I know your really biased against them but come on, lol.

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The 8uc timeline where they were willing to murder billions just to undo the calamity and bring back the wol?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The 8uc timeline where they were willing to murder billions just to undo the calamity and bring back the wol?

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1) The Scions were all dead.

2) As the short story states, there plan involved killing themselves to, that's how they assumed it would work, at best

Literally weren't going to receive any benefits from doing so. Quite different then trying to staple other living being souls back onto yourself so you can maybe grow taller if you collect them all.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

1) The Scions were all dead.

2) As the short story states, there plan involved killing themselves to, that's how they assumed it would work, at best

Literally weren't going to receive any benefits from doing so. Quite different then trying to staple other living being souls back onto yourself so you can maybe grow taller if you collect them all.

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I’m not talking about it being purely the scions doing it but the protagonists period and it not being framed as a villainous thing. Their time travel antics could have resulted in the murder of billions if not trillions. Them dying as well doesn’t make it right lmao. It doesn’t matter if they would have received benefits or not. The sundered is framed as an incredibly bad thing. Trying to undo it and become what you’re meant to be shouldn’t be framed as villainous that just sounds like fetishizing suffering. It’s not about “growing taller.” By rejoining with all shards someone would become nigh-on immortal and become immune to illness. Imagine trying to just simplify it to “an increase in height” LOL

Edit: Oh yeah and how could i forget, Minfilia taking over little girls and having them fight sin eaters to the death over and over.... those poor children. Killed over and over.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’m not talking about it being purely the scions doing it but the protagonists period and it not being framed as a villainous thing. Their time travel antics could have resulted in the murder of billions if not trillions. Them dying as well doesn’t make it right lmao. It doesn’t matter if they would have received benefits or not. The sundered is framed as an incredibly bad thing. Trying to undo it and become what you’re meant to be shouldn’t be framed as villainous that just sounds like fetishizing suffering. It’s not about “growing taller.” By rejoining with all shards someone would become nigh-on immortal and become immune to illness. Imagine trying to just simplify it to “an increase in height” LOL

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If you can't tell "growing taller" was a joke, maybe I should have been more blunt. Maybe, "Murdering people in the hopes that stapling there soul back on will give me a bigger dick" (Absurdity aside, there literally nothing that says it couldn't be canon that one of the unseen Ascians has that as his major motivation)

Regardless, trying to undo it involves murdering innocent people. Claiming that can't or shouldn't be portrayed negatively is your own wildly subjective bias. And its especially funny to here you claim others are trying to "simplify" motivations when thats literally all you do with Venat because you don't like her and that's your interpretation. Which is fine, opinions, but don't try to dress it up as something deeper or objective.

And trying to undo it without the Unsundered or Zodiark is even less justified than it was before. Now the Ascians left don't even fully remember what the world they lost was like. And if the Unsundered/Hyth are reborn on the Source there going to have there own new lives they probably wouldn't be thrilled with people claiming to be there allies trying to severely damage and kill people in there world

I believe it's been pointed out many times over the years around these parts that the player character and their allies have been directly or indirectly complicit in the deaths of many individuals who could have been dealt with through non-lethal methods instead. Especially in such cases where they were slain based on mere ideological differences or due to not being given a fair chance to digest what was going on at the time.

The 'bias' accusation can be trotted out as many times as some here see fit though that hardly changes the trend of excuses being made to excuse everything the protagonists are complicit in as well as a push for no consequences whatsoever when they do something shady. I'm sure many here are well aware that they're akin to comfort characters in certain cases.

Personally I like it when the protagonists do something shady. It makes them more interesting and realistic. Hien's one of my favourite characters for that very reason - not only was he fairly cold and callous towards Yotsuyu's plight, he strong armed the Xaela into being fodder for a war that did not concern them and sent many of the occupants of Doma Castle to a horrific watery grave. Somehow I doubt it would be as readily dismissed if it were Yotsuyu drowning a bunch of resistance fighters...

Though I suppose this is the same board with a strange fondness for finding excuses to blame any antagonist, no matter how sympathetic, for every little thing only to excuse genocide so long as a pretty self proclaimed deity declares it to be a 'necessity'.

I'd personally like to see consistency within the story where such acts are concerned instead of this silly double standard of 'it's okay when we do it'.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

If you can't tell "growing taller" was a joke, maybe I should have been more blunt. Maybe, "Murdering people in the hopes that stapling there soul back on will give me a bigger dick" (Absurdity aside, there literally nothing that says it couldn't be canon that one of the unseen Ascians has that as his major motivation)

Regardless, trying to undo it involves murdering innocent people. Claiming that can't or shouldn't be portrayed negatively is your own wildly subjective bias. And its especially funny to here you claim others are trying to "simplify" motivations when thats literally all you do with Venat because you don't like her and that's your interpretation. Which is fine, opinions, but don't try to dress it up as something deeper or objective.

And trying to undo it without the Unsundered or Zodiark is even less justified than it was before. Now the Ascians left don't even fully remember what the world they lost was like. And if the Unsundered/Hyth are reborn on the Source there going to have there own new lives they probably wouldn't be thrilled with people claiming to be there allies trying to severely damage and kill people in there world

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It doesn’t matter if it’s a joke or whatever, with your absurdities i never know. Also, how funny you bring up undoing it involves murdering innocent people. You mean like how undoing the 8UC timeline involved murdering trillions of innocent people? Or how Minfilia on the First murdered innocent children by forcing them to fight against sin eaters? Seems like you agree with the “rules for thee but not for me” precedence.

I’ve never simplified motivations with Venat. I’ve stated her entire viewpoint time and time again, i just find it incredibly flawed and stupid, and apparently many people do as well with how much the devs had to bend over backwards for her in a QnA and answer questions and explicitly stated “she isn’t a bad guy.” I’m just confused on where the relevance is with bringing her up though. It seems to me whenever you’re losing an argument you either run away and stay quiet or move goalposts.

On and on and on it goes...

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesn’t matter if it’s a joke or whatever, with your absurdities i never know. Also, how funny you bring up undoing it involves murdering innocent people. You mean like how undoing the 8UC timeline involved murdering trillions of innocent people? Or how Minfilia on the First murdered innocent children by forcing them to fight against sin eaters? Seems like you agree with the “rules for thee but not for me” precedence.

I’ve never simplified motivations with Venat. I’ve stated her entire viewpoint time and time again, i just find it incredibly flawed and stupid, and apparently many people do as well with how much the devs had to bend over backwards for her in a QnA and answer questions and explicitly stated “she isn’t a bad guy.” I’m just confused on where the relevance is with bringing her up though. It seems to me whenever you’re losing an argument you either run away and stay quiet or move goalposts.

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Minfillia isnt a gotcha when she was literally the first person who first brought up the morality of her actions. Its why she purposely lets herself die for good. She quite literally says it wasn't fair and she doesn't deserve to live anymore. So if you want to compare it to Ascians still trying to staple themselves back together, thats fine. Shit she would agree with you. But she also already acknowledged any justifications she had doesnt make it right and that would still apply to the Ascians as well. Which is back to the point.

Getting huffy at the idea that murder of innocent people being depicted as not ideal is just silly. Especially when the story did already already took that stance with Minfillia's actions and had her die for it. Why would it be any different for the Ascians? Why does there sympathetic backstory mean bad things they do now shouldn't or can't be depicted as bad?

Because you like them more? Shit I like them more, Minfillia is boring as fuck, the best thing she ever did was make room for Ryne. But getting more enjoyment out of the Ascians doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be depicted as doing something seen by characters in the story as bad.

I don't want the last Ascians to die, I hope they get to play a part in the story going forward. I just find the idea that they can't be depicted as villainous because they have or had sympathetic goals or motivations to be widely subjective and silly.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Minfillia isnt a gotcha when she was literally the first person who first brought up the morality of her actions. Its why she purposely lets herself die for good. She quite literally says it wasn't fair and she doesn't deserve to live anymore. So if you want to compare it to Ascians still trying to staple themselves back together, thats fine. Shit she would agree with you. But she also already acknowledged any justifications she had doesnt make it right and that would still apply to the Ascians as well. Which is back to the point.

Getting huffy at the idea that murder of innocent people being depicted as not ideal is just silly. Especially when the story did already already took that stance with Minfillia's actions and had her die for it. Why would it be any different for the Ascians? Why does there sympathetic backstory mean bad things they do now shouldn't or can't be depicted as bad?

Because you like them more? Shit I like them more, Minfillia is boring as fuck, the best thing she ever did was make room for Ryne. But getting more enjoyment out of the Ascians doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be depicted as doing something seen by characters in the story as bad.

I don't want the last Ascians to die, I hope they get to play a part in the story going forward. I just find the idea that they can't be depicted as villainous because they have or had sympathetic goals or motivations to be widely subjective and silly.

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You’re avoiding the elephant in the room. What’s your excuse for Ironworks then? You’re exact words were, “Trying to undo it involves murdering people.” You’re saying that regardless of circumstance, trying to undo something that involves killing people is negative and wrong and villainous. Well that’s exactly what Ironworks was prepared or do and were praised for it. So if we’re going to praise them for that, and praise Venat as a hero for doing what she did(who btw, consumed the souls of 12 people to summon Hydaelyn, i guess she’s wrong for that and we should all petition to have her minion of being named a hero renamed), then we shouldn’t be framing an ascian as wrong or villainous for doing the same as them except on a much smaller scale.