job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

In my experience, PLD does hold hate better than WAR. It's not a huge increase, but is noticeable. It also seems to build hate faster at the start of a fight. Whether that's enough to go with PLD and it's lower dps and hp over WAR is another story though.

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From a paper and pencil standpoint the WAR dominates PLD for hate generation, they each have access to the same skills and the WAR does a large amount more DPS, if you stack madening pots with antagonize and collusion+resonance pulling you can open a fight with WAYWAYWAY more enmity then PLD. The only way PLD keeps up with WAR is through healing others which is just not needed in almost any of the fights we have so far.

Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65 multiplier of enmity, so the voke/flash/rampart are doing 165%enmity vs the PLD counterpart

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Originally Posted by Req

Or you know, just give them a universal damage mitigation job trait.

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Who cares about dmg mitigation if your goal is speed of kill and efficiency. There was a point when I was using CON as main tank on ifrit and a year ago I was tanking with THM. Even if PLD got a 20% dmg mitigation trait it doesn't help you kill faster and thats the only thing that that should mater to an elite group. And unfortunately the elite groups that post up early strategies are the ones who the masses tend to emulate.

Unless you can completely remove WHM from a group (since currently you can 1 whm every fight/instance in game already) the dmg mitigation is moot

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Every class/job got some sort of adjustment. That's what happens when things get balanced properly. Cry me a river.

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None of them had their fundamental role changed as much as ARC did. Yes ARC was overpowered in the past but it certainly isn't now and didn't need a nerf yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Who cares about dmg mitigation if your goal is speed of kill and efficiency. There was a point when I was using CON as main tank on ifrit and a year ago I was tanking with THM. Even if PLD got a 20% dmg mitigation trait it doesn't help you kill faster and thats the only thing that that should mater to an elite group. And unfortunately the elite groups that post up early strategies are the ones who the masses tend to emulate.

Unless you can completely remove WHM from a group (since currently you can 1 whm every fight/instance in game already) the dmg mitigation is moot

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Ya I've mentioned it on the other topic more centered towards PLD but it seems like the most simple thing they could do for PLD is add "Chance at Defense down" for "Enhanced Flash II". So along with gaining the AOE effect with flash at that level they could also grant the opportunity for all/some mobs to have their defense lowered allowing DD to have an easier time to kill adds.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Ya I've mentioned it on the other topic more centered towards PLD but it seems like the most simple thing they could do for PLD is add "Chance at Defense down" for "Enhanced Flash II". So along with gaining the AOE effect with flash at that level they could also grant the opportunity for all/some mobs to have their defense lowered allowing DD to have an easier time to kill adds.

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I've read your suggestions before and I agree, a flash defense down would be really nice even if its 10% defense down for 10 seconds that would be just about enough to get my group of ppl to consider PLD.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

PS: As far as the mentioning of how long it takes, the deciding factor should be how your DPSers perform. The tank should not be a factor in that equation at all. It shouldn't matter if the tank is a WAR or PLD or SAM or BST or whatever; the result should be the same. If a run takes longer with a PLD and shorter with a WAR, then there's a balance problem and in needs to be resolved.

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If paladin must put up with lesser damage in compairison to warrior (which I respect and prefer --> I love surivial & utility). Their lack of enmity from lesser damage abilities should be compensated with enough pure enmity generation for surrounding DPS to increase their single target/AoE damage. If surrounding party members can more safily pump out greater damage with a PLD in the group, then this would be a non-issue.


The greatest example is compairing FFXIV to EQII's paladin; they are VERY similar. Both use seemingly amazing AoE protective buffs, provide block buffs galore, use cure/heal as a means to hold hate, and use almost pure emity (little damage) generating abilities, AoE's, and buffs to hold hate. The only difference between these two PLD's (other than move names and EQII having WAY more moves since it's an OLD developed MMO and FFXIV's PLD being more involving --> YAY) is that FFXIV's PLD is not receiving enough of the pure emity gain abilities (or these abilities are currently lackluster). SE decided to provide the emity generation and transfer buffs to the Warrior, a class so well developed in AoE and monsterous single target damage that they hardly need all these hate generating buffs to hold hate.

I'm not asking SE to strip warrior of all these abilities; however, PLD's current Emity generating abiliites require re-evaulation for their effectiveness at (mainly) holding AoE enmity.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

None of them had their fundamental role changed as much as ARC did. Yes ARC was overpowered in the past but it certainly isn't now and didn't need a nerf yesterday.

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LOL, whining about an ARC nerf. Unless you're soloing, why would you play ARC when you can play BLM or BRD instead? In the case that you are soloing, again, why arc? There are much better choices to solo. Now I feel you're whining just to whine about something. ARCs role went from ranged DD to slightly lower DPS ranged DD. Is that a fundamental change? I think not.

Lets be honest, the only reason to level ARC is to unlock BRD in terms of end game. If I'm forming a group, and you said you wanted to play ARC when we need ranged DD, I'd boot you for somebody who would play BLM. If we needed a BRD and you went ARC, I'd boot you for someone who'd play BRD.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Ya I've mentioned it on the other topic more centered towards PLD but it seems like the most simple thing they could do for PLD is add "Chance at Defense down" for "Enhanced Flash II". So along with gaining the AOE effect with flash at that level they could also grant the opportunity for all/some mobs to have their defense lowered allowing DD to have an easier time to kill adds.

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Like Dia!

10char

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Originally Posted by Raikki

...drop rates are abysmal and content has to be cleared hundreds of times. You'd have to be a fool to deliberately make those hundreds of clears take longer than necessary by needlessly using an inferior group composition.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

...class stacking is very much SE's fault, between class/job design, ability and damage spread between jobs, and encounter design and balancing (or lack thereof).

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Originally Posted by DarkB

...class stacking is SE's fault because they seem to not play the game and just listen to people in forums. You do things with your friends for fun the first times, and that's fine, but after a bit when you see that going with 6 blms 1 war 1 whm is faster than going with other jobs, why on earth would you frustrate yourself, waste time, risk to lose, going with another setup?
Makes no sense.

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I read this and I think: if the game developers are truly responsible for us - the players - stacking classes and jobs, the solution should be to limit the number of jobs/classes in a full party.

One example could be incentivising balanced party setups. If the system detects a qualifying setup, it could enhance or increase battle rewards regardless of the time taken to complete it. However, it would be up to the game developers to set and recognize those parameters.

I feel I am inclined to agree with Chardrizard. Accomplishing and achieving difficult content should be a fun task. Efficiency is a choice. Steps can be taken to promote balanced setups (or so-called "inferior setups") rather than efficient ones. But it shouldn't be cakewalk for them either.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

LOL, whining about an ARC nerf. Unless you're soloing, why would you play ARC when you can play BLM or BRD instead? In the case that you are soloing, again, why arc? There are much better choices to solo. Now I feel you're whining just to whine about something. ARCs role went from ranged DD to slightly lower DPS ranged DD. Is that a fundamental change? I think not.

Lets be honest, the only reason to level ARC is to unlock BRD in terms of end game. If I'm forming a group, and you said you wanted to play ARC when we need ranged DD, I'd boot you for somebody who would play BLM. If we needed a BRD and you went ARC, I'd boot you for someone who'd play BRD.

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So essentially you admit there is a problem with ARC as there is no reason to play it or take one along. You either have to play a different ranged DD or switch to a supporting ranged DD. So yes the fundamentals have changed because you don't play ARC. It went from being a top tier DD to being forced into a support DD and if you're not willing to do that then you don't get to play, simple as.

And of course I go BRD or THM/BLM as needed. I don't go ARC for the sake of going ARC.

I'd argue that it was an unnecessary nerf whether I had the job levelled or not. If they had nerfed PLD then I would say the exact same thing.