Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

What I mean by unable to adapt was that after Zodiark was summoned and the 2nd sacrifice happened there was a brief moment of peace. Theoretically that was the tipping point more so than his creation (theoretically because tempering inherently threw a wrench in that, the convocation were sol from the moment they "saved" the day). In that interlude the survivors debated what to do next. The convocation was going to push for sacrifice #3...and thats where everything went to hell. Had everyone been able to accept what was lost and made due with who they had left they wouldn't have needed to have been sundered. It would have been painful to accept permanent loss of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice (rip Hyth ;-;7) but it could have stopped there. Theoretically. Poor Elidibus drew the shortest stick in the planet's history :c

Elpis' ending cutscene and Ultima Thule are ultimately about people who locked their legs instead of adapting. The story is a little clumsy in the message because the writers inexplicably really wanted a self fulfilling prophesy/bootstrap paradox, but I'm pretty sure its trying to tell you that even when you're hurt, scared, sad, etc, you need to put one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward.

---

The problem with this message is it’s contradicted by Ironworks in ShB. Instead of sticking with what they had they decided to mess with time to bring back the WoL and avert the calamity instead of working with what they could(which we later find out was possible without time travel). That’s why i bring up the whole problem of it’s painted as a good thing when the protags do it but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong etc etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranhansha

No, I didn't. Did you play the game? They literally told you what I said through Hermes. They didn't give a damn about the lives that didn't stick to their standards and that's what make Hermes break. That's why he goes to such lengths to try to save their lives, that's why you have Emet teach the Sanuwa how to fly.



Yeah? I'm certainly lacking more empathy than other people. That doesn't mean I would take a life as if it were nothing or a joyous thing. At least we kill them to get something in return and not because we have a God complex. Anyways, the comparison makes no sense because they were supposed to be a thousand times better than "us" imperfect beings. They were on a whole different level. And in spite of that, we have proved to be a lot more empathetic than them, especially when things go south and that can be seen in the same EW MSQ and when we do the role quests, when we try to save all kinds of people irregardless of their situation.

And no, I'm not advocating for anything, I'm just saying they weren't perfect and I don't understand why everyone thinks a society of psychopaths with a God complex was perfect. You are essentially advocating for racism and classism.

---

The screenshots i posted completely refute your claims on them not giving a damn about the lives. Even soulless creations they treated well, when they really didnt have to. Are you really going to bring up the muh racism and muh classism lmao. Also a society of psychopaths? Please. You're getting all up in a tizzy and spouting useless headcanon and treating it as fact.

The Ascians played a fairly significant role in the elimination of the Scions back in ARR, but they let the loporrits live on the moon, ready to aid and abet the followers of Hydaelyn?

Their existence doesn't even make sense. The loporrits represent a "plan B" for the followers of Hydaelyn if everything else fails. If you are an Ascian trying to force the protagonist to do things your way, you don't leave the moon full of helpful critters who know everything the hero needs to know, who can do everything the plot needs them to do for the hero to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

What I mean by unable to adapt was that after Zodiark was summoned and the 2nd sacrifice happened there was a brief moment of peace. Theoretically that was the tipping point more so than his creation (theoretically because tempering inherently threw a wrench in that, the convocation were sol from the moment they "saved" the day). In that interlude the survivors debated what to do next. The convocation was going to push for sacrifice #3...and thats where everything went to hell. Had everyone been able to accept what was lost and made due with who they had left they wouldn't have needed to have been sundered. It would have been painful to accept permanent loss of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice (rip Hyth ;-;7) but it could have stopped there. Theoretically. Poor Elidibus drew the shortest stick in the planet's history :c

Elpis' ending cutscene and Ultima Thule are ultimately about people who locked their legs instead of adapting. The story is a little clumsy in the message because the writers inexplicably really wanted a self fulfilling prophesy/bootstrap paradox, but I'm pretty sure its trying to tell you that even when you're hurt, scared, sad, etc, you need to put one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward.

---

That may well be the point the writers are trying to push, but it is understandable to me why the Convocation - and their broader society - would refuse to adapt in that way, because putting aside any other desires for their return, if those souls were stuck inside Zodiark, they'd effectively be in a form of purgatory and deprived their connection to the star. Certainly in the story up to SHB we're not really given any reason as to why they'd need to be sundered, other than the opinions of Venat's faction over whether the new lives should inherit the star. The only rationale I can see comes post-EW (and only after the Elpis events, i.e. this would not have been knowledge available to them in the timeline prior to this), and even then only if you assume that had they been told the full story (which they were not, because the only person who knew it did not want to alter the timeline), they'd still have pressed onto their potential doom. In the absence of that we're stuck with "what ifs" as opposed to anything like a justification. Tempering is much of a muchness given what was revealed right before the launch of Ragnarok. Certainly one can make the case that, after 12k years, it affected Lahabrea due to identity erosion and Elidibus due to wilfully allowing memory loss, but Zodiark was not actively using it to command them to do anything, because he was not that kind of primal. He was designed to have a controller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrogDog

This was the plot of Endwalker in a nutshell

---

Yeah, pretty much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

The Ascians played a fairly significant role in the elimination of the Scions back in ARR, but they let the loporrits live on the moon, ready to aid and abet the followers of Hydaelyn?

Their existence doesn't even make sense. The loporrits represent a "plan B" for the followers of Hydaelyn if everything else fails. If you are an Ascian trying to force the protagonist to do things your way, you don't leave the moon full of helpful critters who know everything the hero needs to know, who can do everything the plot needs them to do for the hero to win.

---

From what I understood, I think the Loporrits (or was it the Watcher?) said the Ascians had to sneak around at the moon, so that meant the Ascians didn't have as much power there. It makes sense, since the outer layer is filled with Hyadelyn's power of stagnation and stability. Sorta like how the Ascians can't directly barge into the WoL's headquarters in ARR - because our blessing of light basically denies them entry. The Watcher also being Hyadelyn's creation also takes charge over there, so it's not as if the Ascians had much power, if any, to interfere with such matters.


If they could interfere with the Loporrits, they might as well have broken Zodiark free from the pillars, so it stands to reason they were greatly hindered in that zone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The problem with this message is it’s contradicted by Ironworks in ShB. Instead of sticking with what they had they decided to mess with time to bring back the WoL and avert the calamity instead of working with what they could(which we later find out was possible without time travel). That’s why i bring up the whole problem of it’s painted as a good thing when the protags do it but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong etc etc.

---

I get that frustration entirely. My biggest gripe with this game's time travel is that we get loops that aren't quite loops and splits that aren't clean splits with the end results + their reasoning things get very wishy washy very fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

That may well be the point the writers are trying to push, but it is understandable to me why the Convocation - and their broader society - would refuse to adapt in that way, because putting aside any other desires for their return, if those souls were stuck inside Zodiark, they'd effectively be in a form of purgatory and deprived their connection to the star. Certainly in the story up to SHB we're not really given any reason as to why they'd need to be sundered, other than the opinions of Venat's faction over whether the new lives should inherit the star. The only rationale I can see comes post-EW (and only after the Elpis events, i.e. this would not have been knowledge available to them in the timeline prior to this), and even then only if you assume that had they been told the full story (which they were not, because the only person who knew it did not want to alter the timeline), they'd still have pressed onto their potential doom. In the absence of that we're stuck with "what ifs" as opposed to anything like a justification.

---

I get why they'd be disinclined to abandon their trapped people but with us being told 2 or 3 times in Thavnair alone to mourn those gone and move on, I don't think the game is exactly subtle in saying what/who was lost should have been accepted as effectively "gone". Tragic for sure, brutally for the ancients especially, but thats very much in line with To Live Is To Suffer. See point above for Graha shenanigans.

Quote:

---

Tempering is much of a muchness given what was revealed right before the launch of Ragnarok. Certainly one can make the case that, after 12k years, it affected Lahabrea due to identity erosion and Elidibus due to wilfully allowing memory loss, but Zodiark was not actively using it to command them to do anything, because he was not that kind of primal. He was designed to have a controller.

---

Tempering is same ol same ol. Eng just decided to be silly there because lel moon wabbits funny. Zodiark wanted to be whole and free to complete his function, between Gaia, Emet, the starry fruit gummies and the warning in literally every language past English, I've yet to see anything that convinces me otherwise.

https://i.imgur.com/rYhv8pz.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Sorta like how the Ascians can't directly barge into the WoL's headquarters in ARR - because our blessing of light basically denies them entry.

---

Both Elidibus and Lahabrea do this though, so it stands to reason they could’ve gotten rid of the Loporrits. Regarding the pillars though, they stated they didn’t want to bring Zodiark back until he was complete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Both Elidibus and Lahabrea do this though, so it stands to reason they could’ve gotten rid of the Loporrits. Regarding the pillars though, they stated they didn’t want to bring Zodiark back until he was complete.

---

No, both Lahabrea and Elidibus are the ones who are sneaking about. The watchers or the Loporrits (I don't recall which one) was always aware of their presence and briefly mentions them when you talk to them about it. Lahabrea is already weakened considerably due to his actions to create chaos and rejoining so I doubt he had much power in the Moon. Elidibus' goal wasn't to cause problems, as his role was the Emissary. From the way Elidibus tells it, the Ascians most likely get rid of heroes that get too powerful anyway at the Source and the shards. It's just that the Ascians probably didn't take into account we are Azem and we grow much stronger than most WoLs as Hyadelyn named us her Champion, not just a blessed WoL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

No, both Lahabrea and Elidibus are the ones who are sneaking about. The watchers or the Loporrits (I don't recall which one) was always aware of their presence and briefly mentions them when you talk to them about it. Lahabrea is already weakened considerably due to his actions to create chaos and rejoining so I doubt he had much power in the Moon. Elidibus' goal wasn't to cause problems, as his role was the Emissary. From the way Elidibus tells it, the Ascians most likely get rid of heroes that get too powerful anyway at the Source and the shards. It's just that the Ascians probably didn't take into account we are Azem and we grow much stronger than most WoLs as Hyadelyn named us her Champion, not just a blessed WoL.

---

It’s the watcher who was aware of them, my point is though they were able to get past our blessing and invade the waking sands.That’s all i’m saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

I get why they'd be disinclined to abandon their trapped people but with us being told 2 or 3 times in Thavnair alone to mourn those gone and move on, I don't think the game is exactly subtle in saying what/who was lost should have been accepted as effectively "gone". Tragic for sure, brutally for the ancients especially, but thats very much in line with To Live Is To Suffer. See point above for Graha shenanigans.

---

Sure, it's not subtle about it, to the point that it almost becomes comical to me at times, but in equal measure the writers' views on the matter hold little sway over whether I agree with the point being made, or whether I think the Convocation erred in its decision. They do seem to push aside such views at times, when it doesn't suit the plot - e.g. when their Scions to keep alive or bring back - then the point goes into hibernation. It's their story to tell in the end but audience evaluation of particular points is not up to them, and they're aware of this given how Yoshi has framed the matter in prior interviews. Even if the urge was to bring back their people, there is an additional issue at play here which to me makes it disanalogous to other situations of death, where the soul can at least pass back to the star - here that couldn't happen, because they were in Zodiark, and he was still needed, so they couldn't just pull them out without exchanging something else to keep him in top form.

Quote:

---

Tempering is same ol same ol. Eng just decided to be silly there because lel moon wabbits funny. Zodiark wanted to be whole and free to complete his function, between Gaia, Emet, the starry fruit gummies and the warning in literally every language past English, I've yet to see anything that convinces me otherwise.

https://i.imgur.com/rYhv8pz.png

---

Thanks for the source, but the dismissive attitude of the Loporrit isn't really what I am getting at. Tempering is revealed in SHB to consist in an alignment to the primal's form of aether (element or energy), coupled with rendering the soul more umbral. So the text there appears to be written in a way so as not to contradict that lore with regard to Zodiark, as that connection between Zodiark and his summoners existed, something Hades openly divulged. What the Ragnarok scene also comments on, though, is the zealous urge on the part of the summoners to bring in others into their and forcefully convert, commonly associated with tempering - that appears to have been a deliberate design choice for the beast tribe primal summonings in the rites that the Ascians passed on to them. This is the form of tempering that is most problematic. Yoshi also revealed in a separate interview that primals can control how "baked" they want the tempered to be in terms of mind control. In a primal like Zodiark, where it has no real will without a heart controlling it (Elidibus), any of that would appear out of place. So it solely seems to be referring to the energy alignment I spoke of. Unless the game were to be more specific about what that entails to the degree that it affected them, beyond very vague statements, I'm disinclined to consider it significant at the time - in their capacity as Ascians, with 12k years of toiling, and 2 of the unsundered failing to preserve their memory or identity like Emet did? Yes, then it may be a bit more of a problem for them. As a note, we can piece together from different pieces of lore (here) that the Convocation itself was divided over this whole question, so if the point is that tempering was pushing them towards such a decision, it's not immediately apparent to me. Speculating a bit, I believe Elidibus's emergence from Zodiark proved that such a thing could be done, and that may well have paved the way for broader agreement in their society to proceed with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s the watcher who was aware of them, my point is though they were able to get past our blessing and invade the waking sands.That’s all i’m saying.

---

We also need to consider that their intention was to wait until the time was right, i.e. all the worlds were rejoined. In all honesty, I don't think the Loporrit posed enough of an active threat to the Ascians' plans anyway, because they were there as a contingency plan for Hydaelyn in the event that her other plan failed, which would require Zodiark to have been ended. The Watcher could eventually prove to be a nuisance, but since Hydaelyn's goal was not to destroy Zodiark, but bind him, until the time to free him came, he was a non-issue, too.