No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant here...

This is neither smart nor effective, especially if a healer cannot contribute to the damage dealing because (s)he is too busy trying to keep everybody alive and expending his/her entire MP pool in the process...

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Not gonna read through the whole 22page so I'm not sure if someone already pointed this out but I'm pretty sure I know where the problem is. What you just described is often the sign of a "bad" tank.

- If you tank competently - i.e decently geared, use appropriate CD, dodging attack ...etc... then the healer will barely need to heal you at all, even with big pull. If you see healers busting their butt and empty their MP just to keep you alive, then it's a form of silence and polite protest at your inadequate tanking.

- In dungeon DPS not supposed to take damage, unless they get hit by AOE. And frankly if a DPS is too brain death to dodge the simple AOE it won't matter if the pull is big or small anyway. Or ... it could be they're kindly tanking the mobs on the behalf of the tank who's not doing his job.

Granted, both cases may have OTHER causes beside the tank, but when two independent scenario both share a common point of failures then ... well, let's just say I agree with you someone are not playing smart nor effective, but their is a very high probability it's not your party who are.

As a healer I love it when the tank pulls the whole leg. As a Tank I'll pull the whole leg if I see the healer is adequately geared.
Usually average 10-13minute runs doing this vs 20min not.

The new dungeon I have been primarily doing single pulls because even on those I've been seeing my HP drop below 25% far too often. I'm not going to pull more when I frequently get healers on that duty that don't make me feel confident they can keep up or just aren't paying enough attention to tank HP. This is probably due to a combination of the mobs hitting harder than the other duties in expert roulette and how long we've had the previous 3 duties which are pretty much easy mode for people now due to gear ilvl.

I don't mind if you want to TRY wall pulling on dungeons with reeaally big legs when I'm rolling a healer.
But please, tell your healer you're gonna do this.
We're not mind readers, and a lot of tanks stutter pull.
If you stop while you have a lot of enemies on you that's my queue to start dropping cooldowns, so if you start moving again at that point and my tools to keep you alive are on cooldown, sorry, but it's not on the healer for what happens after that.

I know everyone likes to larp as a top savage raider when it comes to dungeons, but healer is definitely not my main class and most definitely not my best one, and I don't pretend otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re a poor healer if you don’t care about being efficient. If you hold Benediction for emergencies, it’s likely you’ll lose use of it entirely in most dungeons.

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A lot of people would disagree with you, but you're always welcome to hop over to Crystal and see how I play for yourself. :)

If I don't have to use Benediction, then that's a good thing. It means everyone's gear was just in the right spot, the tank used all of their CDs to the best of their abilities, DPS were AoEing to their fullest potential, and I had plenty of time to throw out my own AoEs.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

??? Do you understand how Excog works?

You put it on a tank so that it will proc and heal them up when they dip below 50%. Meaning you are free to do whatever while it is on them. Using it after they’ve dipped below the automatic heal threshold of the skill is a waste of the skill, and shows you don’t understand how it works.

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Okay, but I'm not using it after someone has dipped below 50%.

Excogitation is specifically designed as a safety net; a 'what if' scenario. If it doesn't go off before the timer runs out, then once again, that's very much a good thing for the same reasons I mentioned as with not having to use Benediction.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re being willfully negligent by ignoring your instant cast spells, and misusing skills like Excog.

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Neither of which I'm doing or advocating, so what's your point?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You do know that people can post on here with alt characters and not necessarily their mains, right? For all you know, PyurBlue could have level 80 healers and heal Savage content on them. But if you want advice from a level 80 healer, I have all 3 to level 80 and have healed all content from dungeons to Ultimate: you’re healing incorrectly if you save your instants for emergencies.

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Hiding behind an alt/another account/whatever a relatable situation is never a good look as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe what you're doing works for you, and if so, that's great, but after playing this game since ARR, my experience says otherwise. Needless risks just aren't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Tank busters are not common in dungeons. Regen and Asylum are often enough to get through a pull if the tank is decent and the DPS are awake. That gives me 20 to 30 seconds to do..... DPS.

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They are in Shadowbringers, and many mobs hit like a truck, as well. I'm not even arguing against the latter; you're talking to someone that was a chronic stance dancer.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

A healer who lets people drop without them dying is actually someone who knows precisely what he is doing.
It's fine to play it a bit safe if it's your first run but after that you should have an idea about which cast is the tankbuster, which is the party-wide damage and which mechanic is completely avoidable.

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People learn and memorize at different rates. For me, it tends to take one. For others, it might take several. It's not universal.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Absolutely not.
A healer that is saving strong instant/ oGCD heals for emergencies definitely doesn't know what he's doing. They are there to prevent emergencies from happening in the first place while freeing up time to dps which -again- avoids emergency situations in the first place - dead mobs can't kill you.
Relying on hard-casted heals is the most inefficient way to heal past a certain level and a last resort when other options are exhausted. This isn't about messed-up priorities or laziness, it's simply the most efficient way to heal. Period.
Letting instants and oGCDs sit is a bad habit. It's fine for someone new and inexperienced, escpecially if they came over from a game where you needed to save them and healers were much weaker compared to incoming damage. But part of learning the healer role is using your full kit to it's full potential and that includes utilizing instants and oGCDs as often as possible to maximize dps time without frontloading them.

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If it's inefficient, how come I don't run out of MP? How come I never have trouble healing anyone, but have plenty of time to DPS?

Let's say this is whatever the latest alliance raid may be, and I'm playing Scholar. If I'm wasting spells like Lustrate because I'm too tunnel-visioned to care about the tank until they drop below 50%, what will I have left for other party members that missed crucial mechanics and are seconds away from death during the middle of a DPS race? Adlo and Physick won't go off in time; not enough for multiple people.

That was my last Copied Factory run. Difference was, I saved my emergency spells and helped prevent a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Hello there. PLD main here, previously AST/SCH in SB, but I didn't do the endgame savage content then.

This is the exact opposite of what you should be telling people.
As long as my healers keep me alive, I don't care if I am at 1 HP or 100,000 HP.

Healers should mainly use oGCDs to heal, and DPS while they don't need to heal.

More damage from healers = more mobs dead = less heals needed = faster dungeon/trial/raid

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I don't use my oGCDs as a crutch and still have plenty of time to DPS without risks.

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Originally Posted by Videra

You evidently know very little about healing then, yikes. Tanks do not need to be topped off at all times in most of the content in this game. Letting the health of your tank dip to 50% is totally fine and common in the majority of cases, especially when you have tanks like Warrior and Gunbreaker - who can bolide or holmgang to cheese busters. Then you just pop a regen or tetra onto them. If you're Scholar, you probably already set down recitation excog. You have options, OGCDs don't cost mana and are not there for emergencies, and regens are fairly powerful. There are of course cases where you want the party to be topped off, but these are fewer and farther in between. Quake in Hades EX comes to mind. So use your OGCDs when you need to put a little spot healing down and DPS 'till your heart's content.

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I'm pretty sure I know more about it than someone that has a one year-old account with all three healers still at level 70.

While accidents happen, you should never, EVER, scare your tank into using their invuln like that, especially with their lengthy timers.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Oh god stop with this silly argument. Astro has a skill that legit mutes your entire point in Essential Dignity:
Restores target's HP.
Cure Potency: 400
Potency increases up to 1,100 as the target's HP decreases.
Maximum Charges: 2

That type of logic doesn't fly especially now with all of the healer changes. Healing has become so boring and mute that keeping everyone topped off is a waste of time and your resources. I'd much rather have a healer helping me dps down a boss to make everyone's life easier then giving me the juice of life constantly cutting down our dps by 25%. They have tools in OGCDs to help the party and the damage output from most bosses is enough to manage even with those.

Your logic just won't fly in Savage or even EX when you can't meet dps checks because you're too focused on topping the tank off when you could be instead getting some extra hits to meet a dps check.

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Essential Dignity is an emergency skill. That's exactly why its potency ramps up when the target has less DPS. That justifies what I'm saying; it doesn't deny it.

We're not even talking about Savage or EX. This is a thread about dungeons. Besides, Yoshida himself confirmed years ago that healer DPS isn't a factor in raids.

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Originally Posted by Zenkii

When I play healer. Esp in expert dungeons/raids and trial fights. I rarely use a GCD heal. I actually challenge myself to see if I can go a whole run with no GCD heals. I guess I'm just lazy. But then I'm also doing 6-7K dps to. I dont even main healer or play it that much.

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There's a difference between setting a challenge for oneself and the type of player I'm referring to. Still, this isn't something I'd wanna do unless I'm playing with friends.

Look, if what y'all are doing works for you, that's fine, and I'm sure it does in the context of playing with friends, but it's this exact type of advice that ends up filling duty finder with healers that think they're a green DPS. That's not something I want to see more than I already do.

Personally, I don't mind the big pulls. They get the dungeon over quicker.

However, tank and healer should both make sure that they're ready for big pulls. I've had several dungeon runs where the tank pulls everything and can't handle it, or the healer can't keep up with the damage being dealt to the tank. So then everyone gets wiped and we have to start over, wasting time. All it takes is a simple couple seconds to confirm that your tank and healer are both on the same page. Because what's the sense in doing a big pull is one of them can't handle it? All that does is waste time.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The new dungeon I have been primarily doing single pulls because even on those I've been seeing my HP drop below 25% far too often. I'm not going to pull more when I frequently get healers on that duty that don't make me feel confident they can keep up or just aren't paying enough attention to tank HP. This is probably due to a combination of the mobs hitting harder than the other duties in expert roulette and how long we've had the previous 3 duties which are pretty much easy mode for people now due to gear ilvl.

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My first time in it, I walled to walled. Are you using Rampart, Reprisal, Arms Length, and all of your tools? Not all at once, of course, but in general. There shouldn't be a problem with you dying. Healer also could be zzzin, so who knows.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

You won't win your argument about adjusting to the wants (not needs) of the group when you are tank. You will never be right, get treated like crap and are expected to "perform" when the group cannot.

I read things like, "Why are you in a queue if you aren't going to respect your groups who want wall pulling", "stop being selfish", "stop casting Clemency, you're bringing down the group"...

I, along with other tanks, can easily counter these stupid remarks because things like the healer not healing and preferring to DPS does actually happen. We can counter these stupid remarks because DPS/Heals are disrespectful and arrogant towards tanks.

In short, it doesn't matter - tanks will be wrong no matter the case, no matter the circumstances, no matter what you do. Just keep doing you. So be it if they wanna get mad and throw a tantrum and leave. You'll still finish when they are waiting out timer and other queues. I don't ever treat groups when I am healing/DPSing like how I get treated most runs. Hell I even get belittled and ridiculed for just explaining some fights! /SMH.

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This isn't a tank exclusive issue. All jobs have predetermined requirements that should be met:

- Healers should always be casting (weaving DPS)
- DPS should know their rotation and perform it correctly (no ice mage)
- Tank should pull as many packs as they can handle

This isn't a choice, this is what the community (and by extension the developers) has determined as optimal, and therefore correct play. I'm not saying that every player should have the ability to do this, simply that those rules are the end goal for a player learning the game, and that players should strive to work towards them, and that ignoring them, complaining about them and refuting them would make you a bad player.

The best thing for anyone to do is to learn these established rules (think of them like PF strats that the community has generally agreed on), and be knowledgable enough to know when a party member is wrong in their thinking (i.e. yes clemency is a DPS loss, it is an emergency heal, and if it is needed then it should be used, if you are spamming it please stop, but ignore the WHM who calls you out for using it once).

I really hope 'ice mages' aren't a thing in this game. Is Level III mage just as bad? Where its Fire III and Blizzard III over and over? I don't BLM too much.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I really hope 'ice mages' aren't a thing in this game. Is Level III mage just as bad? Where its Fire III and Blizzard III over and over? I don't BLM too much.

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I don't know so much in Shadowbringers, but they definitely have been in the past (I have actually seen someone say "I only use Ice spells so I don't run out of mana"). Personally, I equate people who single pull in dungeons (with exception of first-timers and people who have actively communicated their discomfort) to ice mages. People who are willfully ignorant and don't care about the rest of the party's time.