You forget that many of the cone and line AoE can't be directed as they purposely shift around so they aren't always tank centered. Due to constant movement of the boss, melee DPS are always struggling to maintain the proper positioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
Meanwhile the BRD takes two steps to the left and doesnt worry about which way the boss is facing. Or the BLM stops a cast, takes a few steps, and doesn't worry about which way the boss if facing.
Melee working harder to do their job is a thing in pretty much every MMO, FFXIV included.
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07-15-2015, 07:30 AMTila
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07-15-2015, 07:40 AMLeonusThere is more than just the 360 ones. There are conails that do face to the rear. There are the ones that target individual characters that happen to melees as well (usually one melee and one ranged). There is any time you have to move to an add that spawns across the map (really only a dps loss for melee).Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
Just recent examples are in bismark ex and Ravana ex. There is seeing wings/right/left ( they don't affect ranged right? ) I mean , not to take anything from ranged but there is a lot.
If it wasn't for ravana being invincible so much, ranged dps would do even better as they can get to the safe spots where as if a melee is trying to push their dps, they stay on him as long as they can before being forced to disconnect.
Everyone deals with mechanics, but don't downplay what melee put up with too much. -
07-15-2015, 07:43 AMSnugglebuttI play melee and ranged and I do not struggle much in avoiding boss centric AoE's, not to any large degree more so than when playing ranged. If the tank is doing their job 'most' of the boss centered AoE's do will not target the DPS to the side or back. Most boss skills are either ranged, frontal or raid wide unavoidable. Some are coned but most coned are frontal and very few side or back, there are also lined but the lined ones tend to require range class dodge just like melee dodge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
In most fights there are more ranged, frontal or party wide AoE's than side or back boss centered ones. I know this from experience playing both types. I actually have to dodge less on melee than ranged quite a lot these days as so many bosses use ranged AoE's more often to target not only the ranged physical DPS but also the ranged casters and ranged healers more so than close combat melee DPS.
I get the impression people who look down on ranged regarding AoE's are looking through tinted glasses or relying on nostalgia of how things used to be. Possibly making assumptions based on other MMO's but these days simply count the amount of ranged AoE's vs side/back AoE's which require movement (exclude bad tanks not keeping control of boss enmity) and you'll find bosses tend to use more ranged skills than one's melee's 'alone' have to dodge. This means do not include ones ranged also have to dodge in the melee only tabulation just because melee do too, if the ranged also have to dodge then put that in the ranged tabulations also. -
07-15-2015, 07:43 AMTilaPeople forget that bit. Being at a distance often puts range at a better position to deal with mechanics when they need to. Like pt4 Alexander: they can more easily take tethers and orbs when needed. On Bismark they can more easily deal with a wind stage and target switching. Its not that range do not have to move. Its that they have to move a lot less and don't suffer as many penalties for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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07-15-2015, 07:47 AMSnowaethConals are the easiest to dodge and as you should be on the edge of the side/rear hitbox area it's literally one step or no movement at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
Melee/Ranged have to move equally far for the ones targeted on players directly.
Ravana seeing/wing affects physical which includes bard and frankly enough bard has to be in the same situation as melee, which is once again taking 2-3 steps from the center of the hitbox.
Let alone that Bismark in return is harder on casters so you could say an eye for an eye.
Nothing on a melee class impacts their movement other than positionals and every ranged has to stay clear from melee area to not stack mechanics on them.
Bard/SMN are usually the ones having to do any mechanics involving lots of movement where BLM/Melee get to sit and hit on the dummy all day long.
Tila mentioning spining/non stop moving bosses affecting melee's almost made me burst out in laughter I don't think I have played any mmo's with any more immobile bosses during a fight and for the few times that you do have to move you have gap closers.
Then Tila mentions A4 and tethers/balls which is something the ranged have to do for the melee's putting more burden on ranged, not more burden on melee.
I have experienced the melee dance plenty on NIN & PLD pre 3.0 to compare how hard that dance is to ranged and I think it's the melee's not realizing how many extra mechanics are specifically focused on disrupting the ranged because there are a lot less that focus on disturbing the melee's and the ones that do like the 360 cone aoe's are easily ignored by timing your GCD's.
PS:
I'd gladly change the effect of Wanderer's Minuet to make bards loose 20-22 yalms of their range when it is active and make bards melee for the time of the song but not loosing instant casts, as being in melee range wouldn't affect bard skill flow at all and frankly enough the melee dance is a much better dance than the BLM dance. -
07-15-2015, 07:53 AMSnugglebuttSo what your now referring to is because you might be a melee DPS, you have to run further to reach the adds? In many fights the melees don't even need to deal with the adds as that generally is handled by the ranged physical DPS and ranged casters. The OT also has a large part to play in regard to adds but I am not sure you can use running distance to adds as a melee DPS as an adequate excuse against ranged classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
Those ranged classes are quite often the ones who have to handle/deal with or kite those adds or take the laser damage or take the orb damage while melee focus on the boss, there are exceptions but overall I think the excuse is on shaky grounds. I can understand what your saying but as someone as said who plays melee and ranged I consider what have said so far to be dubious at best. If anything I consider most of your excuses regarding this have more to do with how things used to be more so than how they are now.
I am not having a go at you, I have nothing against you personally. I just do not agree with what your saying. -
07-15-2015, 08:15 AMLeonusConails maybe be the easiest to dodge, but it's usually the melee who takes care of activating rear conals. Everyone else stays clear (or should anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
Ranged dps and melee dps do move the same distance for the single target stuff, but the difference is, if it has to be a good distance away from the boss and melee dont have gap closers up (mnk and nin only have 1 each) they waste time getting back to the boss.
Ranged handling adds is done because it is easier on raid dps as a whole to have ranged take care of it. So the melee dps don't loose time striking something ranged just have to be in range and start attacking. Plus the ranged classes have better AoE. Groups did it for the sake of efficiency. Of the ranged classes, it's usually bard or smn to kite because the loose far less dps than others for moving.
I would post more but, most brds/mch tend to believe melee can't handle the mechanics the do. When, they actually can... it's just not efficient... at all.
Melee only have so many cap closers, a lot use them as ogcds for extra damage rather than holding them. Any time you don't use them when they are up is a dps loss. You already know that though (seriously, not being snarky)
The stress from melee having to take care of those mechanics (and blm) and keep their rotation/dots/gl/BotD etc would probably be a lot worse than what brd or mch having to put up with the same thing. Especially with the lack of gap closers and retargeting/moving from add to add. Unless everything was right next to each other. Melee loose more time/dps doing that than others... except maybe blm. -
07-15-2015, 08:15 AMTilgungI wasn't aware being beyond 3 yards of the boss completely halted your ability to do damage as a ranged class. Clearly the melee should deal with those mechanics instead so the ranged classes aren't so burdened by their inability to DPS from beyond 3 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowaeth
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07-15-2015, 08:27 AMSnowaethQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
Ranged have to do adds for the melee, easier on melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgung
Ranged have to do ranged mechanics, easier on melee.
Melee's are having it so hard with simplistic aoe's that were introduced around level 2 in the game and ever beyond.
You can pull what I'm saying out of context all you want, my point is the melee's don't have all that many extra things to deal with compared to ranged as people were mentioning here.
Yet people dare to bring arguments the ranged need to be much harder, because the melee's are having such a hard time, which they are not.
Any forced downtime the melee's ever get is compensated by superior dps as it is and even improved upon by skills like the new monk chakra. -
07-15-2015, 08:38 AMLeonus/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowaeth
Melee can do those mechanics what I'm saying. However, if you suggested that in a party, people would probably ask "why?" Followed by "you'Re being stupid, that's so much dps lost". People want to be efficient, do what's easiest, it's human nature.
If I ever party with you, for real, I will do all the mechanics as a drg and allow you to dps all out so that your fonot havery to do anthing to make myour lif easker as a melee. However, people will give me a wierd look as my dps will probably be at around yours.
It won't be efficient, and I'll probably be kicked because "my dps sucks for a drg", but if that makes you see why the player base has ranged classes do these things instead of melee, I will gladly do it.
Ranged classes "handle more mechanics" at times, really only a few fights, because that's the role the player base has assigned to them.
That's all.