Parsers

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Well, it is not irrational to stand up against abusive people, ignoring them will not make it go away either.

my "friend" owns a parser, which he uses for himself, and if when notices any low dps, for example, a bard in gaurda fight.. reason, yhe brd did not have his DoTs up constantly.

my "friend" said it pt chat, "I don't see all the Dots i should see on Garuda" in general. Who knows who else it would have helped. The brd kept his rotation the next fight.

There r many ways to solve a problem without ignoring of course.

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Now that is how criticism should be, offering specific advice to help the party, that is the kind of comment I would respond to positively in a fight.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Again, OP has stated that he didn't care about the parsing and just used it as an angle to crucify someone for calling him out. This thread is not "Parsers contribute to an elitist and toxic gaming environment and should be forbidden;" this thread is "Parsers let me get people I don't like banned and should be forbidden just in case I have the opportunity to get somebody with them!"

Yoshi has already pretty well explained why parsers have been left in that grey area. Parsing isn't cheating, but he doesn't want players butting heads over "must do XXX DPS or kick." Yet somehow, OP has taken the third way, where the law exists only for his own amusement and not for the benefit of the community at large. That's what so damn disgusting about this thread. This instance is hardly some egregious abuse. "DPS is too low" is not an uncommon problem in fights, and it isn't going to take long before everyone points out the obvious weak link, parser or no. It happens with tanks and healers, too, even where they aren't parsed: people will call out tanks for taking too much damage due to not rotating cooldowns properly (or at all), and healers get knocked for not healing properly at critical periods like mountain buster, double WW, or death sentence.

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You completely missed the point of this thread, and that is the statement that parsers ARE being used for the purpose of harassing players, now if this continues SE could block the use of parsers (use strong encryption on the chat logs) over night, or with more work detect when a program other than the client is accessing them. Now (And I will state this for at least the 5th time but no one seems to read it) By all means tell me my damage isn't up to par, but a comment like "Are you trolling" offers no help, no advice it offers nothing to the community other than to make people feel bad.

Constructive criticism is "Delsus your damage isn't up to par with your gear, the BRD is doing much more, are you sure your rotations are right" at which point I could reply (as an example) "well my DoTs and heavy thrust are need to be done at the right position, which will be lowering damage, when they are moving around. Also when they are moving around a lot I have to chase them, whereas BRDs don't, but I'll see what I can do" But "Delsus are you trolling, you did xxk damage" offers nothing It would be akin to (specifically prior to the nerf) in Sunken Temple of Quarn parties dying to Mortal Ray "Guys you are all dying stop sucking" rather than "Guys you need to run to the playforms to remove doom asap" very similar comments one offers advice, and the other serves only to put people down.

This thread is a more a lesson, it only takes a few people using parsers to harass people to make them taboo, and potentially a very serious violation, It wouldn't take much work at all to prevent their use completely, or to make workaround too much work to bother with.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Here is where we will disagree. Community building is a responsibility we all take on whether we want to or not. The reason for this is because oftentimes, how we interact with the community determines our experience, positively or negatively. Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player.

In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group. This will create a longer lasting experience for everyone involved, because they don't feel like they have to do better in order to enjoy content, but want to do better to achieve something difficult. This doesn't pertain to everyone, I understand that, but I know if I were treated one way as opposed to the other, I would do better.

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Unfortunately this is where you hit the problem of divergent goals. when you have thousands of people sharing a space you will often find that divergent goals cause the most friction. If my goal is only to clear content, and your goal is to goof around and have fun, neither of us are wrong. But, when put together, things can get messy. I often also do not have time to hold someones hand and make them better. When I DO have that time, I tend to spend it with my FC helping them be better players. I also don't jump into a PF party that says "Learning party!" and rage out that they don't win on the first few tries (if at all). I knew what I signed up for. This is why I don't understand people raging out when they don't hold up their end in other situations.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Now that is how criticism should be, offering specific advice to help the party, that is the kind of comment I would respond to positively in a fight.

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Yet, I still refrain from doing so.
Simply because there are too many people out there that see even that as being insulted.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I don't think that's necessarily the point. I do agree that people should put more effort into improving the play of others and am not fond of the "must know fight" stuff, but evaluation has to be a part of that. The point of the MMO is not only interaction and not only progression; it is both.

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I should explain what I meant here better. I agree that it is both interaction and progression, however contradicting one another at any point will result in conflict (positive or negative). I believe that having a better interaction will result in better progression naturally. Through my experience, this has been the most successful. It can be easy to get impatient, but staying positive and continually giving each other tips for specific points results in success. Outright telling someone "bad DPS, leave" will not fulfill anything for anyone involved. Now, the person who kicked has to find a replacement, and may have the same issue with the next person, or a new one crops up. The person kicked is disappointed, uninspired, and didn't learn anything. Both solutions will typically take the same amount of time, so why not take the more positive route?

EDIT

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Originally Posted by Cailae

-snip-

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Please see what I wrote above, I think it's relative enough. Particularly the last statement.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Yet, I still refrain from doing so.
Simply because there are too many people out there that see even that as being insulted.

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Many times in DF I have helped people, in Quarn "Guys you need to kill the bees ASAP, tank can't take 2x final sting" (before the nerf) organising positioning on Garuda when we wipe to 3x AoEs, I see a missing Shield Oath on the tank, I mention it and there's no issues. It's about saying it in a polite manner, by all means say someone sucks, just don't make it sound like you are trying to intentionally hurt them.

Removing someone for not doing as much damage as you think they should isn't bullying. It's not what I would do first, personally. But whatever.

Saying something along the lines of, for example, "You're parsing stupidly low. Stupid must run in your family. What's your IQ score? Probably lower than you're parsing. If you can't understand simple rotations, I feel bad for any children you might have. Assuming you're smart enough to know where to put it." And then continuously calling the person stupid; that is bullying and I have seen that and worse.

I didn't read the OP as bragging that he would report anyone for parsing.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

...Again I was posting this to show how people are using parsers to put players down...

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The question when you have a low dps in your party is: why do they have low dps ?

Yeah sure if the tank forgot shield oath then the fix is easy (press a button).

But if a dps is not applying all his dot, why is it ? Laziness ? Not knowing he should ? What else is he forgetting ? Is he using hisoff CD abilities, his procs ? Does he know his rotation ?

All this take time. For people in my FC, sure, i will take the time to teach them and be patient. For people outside, i'm sorry, but it's not my job. If they can't put some time and thinking into how to best play their class, they can get into someone else's party and see if they are more welcome there.

And thinking that someone that is parsing 130 as blm on titan ex for example is going to suddenly jump to 180 because you tell them "hey buddies, don't forget to look out for those shiny procs, they will help you put out more damage ! :) :) :)" is completely insane.

In all cases this is no reason to be mean to them and to insult them. But, in a party labeled as "experienced", i would definitely not hesitate to say "i'm sorry, but your damage output is dramatically lower than what is expected for a dps in this fight. I would suggest you invest some time in looking for ways to improve it. In the meantime, i will have to replace you, as you are hindering this party".

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I believe that having a better interaction will result in better progression naturally.

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I think there are times when the two are simply at odds. It takes time to learn rotations and learn what abilities to use when. You can't pay attention to mechanics and do your rotation at the same time unless that rotation is committed to memory. This is a good part of why people struggle with Titan HM. I can give examples of where sticking with it helped (Ifrit EX: 7 players walked in without previous clears, wiped 5 times, almost abandoned, won in the end) and times where all it did was frustrate people (oh man, all those Garuda and Titan runs without enough DPS). It is simply infeasible to teach a player his entire job as well as fight mechanics and have him get it all down properly in 60 minutes. You can't do everything for him. Sometimes, the only answer is to tell a player to go learn rotation and practice on a dummy.

To make it simple. Yes you can get banned for using a Parser. Telling someone that they have bad damage is Toxic to the game. Telling someone they need to have a better rotation is also toxic to the game. People get kicked out of parties because they aren't doing "top damage". Now these people that get kicked out don't understand why they are getting kicked out. People who use parsers actually don't know how to play the game properly. They look at parser numbers and say, "hey, your not doing ur job because this number says so". They become so dependent on Parsers that they actually have no idea whats going on in the game. Party members are a summoner, bard, blm. Now the drg gets caught in certain moves that capture him causing him to wait for his partners to release him. During that time the "parser" is making the drg look bad. Continued....>

For other parts of the fight the Ranged players get to sit comfortably away from Twintania doing their rotations while a mnk/drg. Actually have to be up on twintania. Parsers are always going to make ranged look the best in Most fights. Then after fight instead of actually seeing what happens in the fight and saying what needs to be fixed. Parser users say your not good enough because this number says so. If you kill the boss and are good at not getting killed then there is no reason for someone to tell u your not doing well. Basically people who use Parsers ruin the game for a lot more people. If someone uses a parser on you. You can get them banned just report it. Anyone defending Parsers with their life on this forum probably uses one themselves