Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

bla bla encourage class stacking bla bla SE stupid design bla bla.

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Next 80 pages predicted.

They need 100% droprate while having a picnic inside an instance and stop to admire a pretty cave, maybe take a few pictures here and there.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

They need 100% droprate while having a picnic inside an instance and stop to admire a pretty cave, maybe take a few pictures here and there.

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It will be interesting to see how people react now that the RNG (If confirmed) has no part in obtaining the mythril (Unless you can't do supa speed runs)

Huh... to be honest the super speed run theory is a million times less annoying than being at the mercy of the RNG.

I only play for 15 minutes a day, square enix is being prejudice against me with this requirement because I have a real life outside of video games, therefore I don't have the time to meet these ridiculous time requirements of 17 minute speed runs like these no lifers. Please change the system to cater to me.

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Originally Posted by Req

I only play for 15 minutes a day, square enix is being prejudice against me with this requirement because I have a real life outside of video games, therefore I don't have the time to meet these ridiculous time requirements of 17 minute speed runs like these no lifers. Please change the system to cater to me.

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But... but.... 15 minutes is less than 17 minutes....

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Lol they wont stop crying, 17min TA is tough and possibly not doable for most, they will come and say bla bla encourage class stacking bla bla SE stupid design bla bla.

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It is an understatement that SE lacks the ability to make challenging/fun content. Why I still play? Don't know, I like shiny things I guess.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

But... but.... 15 minutes is less than 17 minutes....

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How am i suppose to make friends in 2 minutes ;(

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Originally Posted by Velhart

It is an understatement that SE lacks the ability to make challenging/fun content. Why I still play? Don't know, I like shiny things I guess.

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Getting 17min speedrun isnt easy, its tough and alot will fond it challenging bc it requires next to no mistakes and teamwork while going all out. I am happy they did this bc more people would be pushed towards maximizing their job potential and filters out the bad players.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

Huh... to be honest the super speed run theory is a million times less annoying than being at the mercy of the RNG.

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To be sincere I think the complete opposite.
I'd rather have a small chance at something I can actually do. Than a perfect chance at something I cannot.

That said, people were asking for 'skill' to be used. I'm just sad that my particular favorite tactic (Gogo Turtle Team) is pretty much unuseable.

Can someone please post a video of a CC/AV run finished in under 17 minutes? Cuz, I don't think i can believe this can be done until I see it with my own two eyes.

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Originally Posted by Skies

To be sincere I think the complete opposite.
I'd rather have a small chance at something I can actually do. Than a perfect chance at something I cannot.

That said, people were asking for 'skill' to be used. I'm just sad that my particular favorite tactic (Gogo Turtle Team) is pretty much unuseable.

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But... you CAN just do slow runs and have a %0,01 chance at a drop, that's what we have right now.

I want a point system myself, the uber cool 200runs a day folks will still do 200 runs a day and the poor 1 run a day peeps
will have measurable progress.

Only type of RNG I'm in favor of is the kind that works for you not against you, like Garuda. you get 2 seals if you win and sometimes you get lucky and get a weapon!

Cool ain it?

You get 1 totem if you dont speedrun garuda :p

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Getting 17min speedrun isnt easy, its tough and alot will fond it challenging bc it requires next to no mistakes and teamwork while going all out. I am happy they did this bc more people would be pushed towards maximizing their job potential and filters out the bad players.

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I agree to an extent, but I don't believe speed runs are the answer to anything. It isn't a right or wrong thing, it is just what I think.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I agree to an extent, but I don't believe speed runs are the answer to anything. It isn't a right or wrong thing, it is just what I think.

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Yes i also agree that speedruns isnt an answer to everything, but it is the easiest way to make something challenging.

Content isnt hard unless they put a gimmicky 1shot like inferno modes in D3 bc eventually video will surface and everyone will figure it out, makes it suddenly easier.

Like Garuda that many says is hard, what makes it hard is usually the inability among party members to work together, read situation, and not having proper gear. The fight itself is easy once you get enough practice.

So what you can do next that people already knew the strats is to put a clock so people can push their limit while having a proper party sync, this is challenging at least for me. It does take skills to pull this off, what people have been asking for, being rewarded for skill.

I think speed-runs are a terrible way to measure "Skill" personally. I'd rather there be a optional boss or something you have to take out, or do a specific task within the dungeon like a puzzle.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I think speed-runs are a terrible way to measure "Skill" personally. I'd rather there be a optional boss or something you have to take out, or do a specific task within the dungeon like a puzzle.

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Which then everyone can easily beat once a video surface on how to tackle them.

Nyzul in FFXI was intriguing before with how many objective inside, is it fun? Yes. Is it challenging? It was when it was first released, Not really after everyone figure out how lamp orders works and stuff. Everyone basically have nyzul gear easy.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes i also agree that speedruns isnt an answer to everything, but it is the easiest way to make something challenging.

Content isnt hard unless they put a gimmicky 1shot like inferno modes in D3 bc eventually video will surface and everyone will figure it out, makes it suddenly easier.

Like Garuda that many says is hard, what makes it hard is usually the inability among party members to work together, read situation, and not having proper gear. The fight itself is easy once you get enough practice.

So what you can do next that people already knew the strats is to put a clock so people can push their limit while having a proper party sync, this is challenging at least for me. It does take skills to pull this off, what people have been asking for, being rewarded for skill.

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To me, speed runs are a lazy way to add difficulty to a dungeon, nothing but artificial difficulty. Developers put no thought into making a creative way to make things challenging for people. While speed runs are a "viable" option, there are definitely much better ways of making things difficult and prologing at the same time. At the same time, this game says hello to the exploiters, which is what is what till 2.0 comes around. SE can't win either way on this one right now. Overall however, like I said, speed runs are lazy, and it is kind of embarassing that SE was too lazy to find a creative way to prolong content and make it difficult.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

You get 1 totem if you dont speedrun garuda :p

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Still awesome, you win you get one, you win fast you get two and if you're lucky you get a weapon.

Granted speed runs are not my ideal choice for measuring skill but even one headdress is measurable progress and that's great.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

To me, speed runs are a lazy way to add difficulty to a dungeon, nothing but artificial difficulty. Developers put no thought into making a creative way to make things challenging for people. While speed runs are a "viable" option, there are definitely much better ways of making things difficult and prologing at the same time. At the same time, this game says hello to the exploiters, which is what is what till 2.0 comes around. SE can't win either way on this one right now. Overall however, like I said, speed runs are lazy, and it is kind of embarassing that SE was too lazy to find a creative way to prolong content and make it difficult.

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And what is this creative way people keep talking about that will keep a content challenging everytime you enter despite having experience at it? If you are referring to what Jynx said, see my response after.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

Still awesome, you win you get one, you win fast you get two and if you're lucky you get a weapon.

Granted speed runs are not my ideal choice for measuring skill but even one headdress is measurable progress and that's great.

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Yea i guess everyone did agree that garuda is the right way so far.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Can someone please post a video of a CC/AV run finished in under 17 minutes? Cuz, I don't think i can believe this can be done until I see it with my own two eyes.

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It's possible.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

And what is this creative way people keep talking about that will keep a content challenging everytime you enter despite having experience at it? If you are referring to what Jynx said, see my response after.




Yea i guess everyone did agree that garuda is the right way so far.

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I think the Nyzul route is the best way to go. It would be better than what we have right now. Instead of (Blow up mobs > Blow up more mobs > Kill mini-boss > Blow up more mobs > Boss > Disappointed in loot.). At least lamp puzzles was a way to challenge your party and be on their toes. Admittedly the puzzles in Nyzul did fall under a pattern people figured out, but I think SE could of worked with more than what FFXI could offer on that regard.

I do agree also Garuda is a step in the right direction. However, the relic quests show that SE took a step backwards and fell over a coffee table. How can a system that works well like Garuda not be implimented into these quests? Why does SE believe RNG is the way to go right now? Why can't they come out and justify the reasons for using it? These are answers I want from them.

If Yoshida can come out of hiding and say why he believes this system works and makes a good counter-argument, I won't complain. I would like to see however if he can justify prolonging content by using this horrid system, especially after making something everyone was in favor of in Garuda.

Now I'm officially depressed ; ;.

If it takes these really fast runs to win, then I am pretty much out.
1 -- I'm on during odd times and can not find enough people to go with consistently to be able to do it that quickly. Beat CC/AV: No problem. Do it in < 17 minutes... that's a problem. Even with content finder this will be problematic.

2 -- I don't like super-fast-paced-blow-things-up-action games. When did final fantasy become so focused on being fast and an action game?


Not giving up on FFXIV.. just giving up on content like this. Hopefully it won't be the theme for the majority of content such that I have nothing else to do....

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I think the Nyzul route is the best way to go. It would be better than what we have right now. Instead of (Blow up mobs > Blow up more mobs > Kill mini-boss > Blow up more mobs > Boss > Disappointed in loot.). At least lamp puzzles was a way to challenge your party and be on their toes. Admittedly the puzzles in Nyzul did fall under a pattern people figured out, but I think SE could of worked with more than what FFXI could offer on that regard.

I do agree also Garuda is a step in the right direction. However, the relic quests show that SE took a step backwards and fell over a coffee table. How can a system that works well like Garuda not be implimented into these quests? Why does SE believe RNG is the way to go right now? Why can't they come out and justify the reasons for using it? These are answers I want from them.

If Yoshida can come out of hiding and say why he believes this system works and makes a good counter-argument, I won't complain. I would like to see however if he can justify prolonging content by using this horrid system, especially after making something everyone was in favor of in Garuda.

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Even if they offer more, it will still fall under patterns which sooner or later will be figured out. But when it comes to teamwork sync test, things can go haywire even if you are following pattern if you are under a clock, while i believe that speedruns isnt the best, i have yet to see anyone with better idea/method to test your entire party skills, gear check, and raid awareness as well as speedruns does.

Regarding RNG, so far the only bad the lowest rate is only 18% from double melds, which honeslty isnt bad but i'd rather not go into this topic bc i can assure you some retard will come in here exegarrating this number like it has 1% meld rate or darklight droprate and they somehow know u can go 1/200, which isnt the case if you know 18% is more than 1%, but stupid ppl is always around so meh.

I am also not a fans of rng, i hope they could just make me turn in 5x mailbreaker that has been fully spiritbond but really.. Its just not as bad as ppl thought of if you double melded something before.

No. Garuda is not hard to speed run. Garuda is EASIER if you speed run it. Garuda is a finesse fight that requires people to pay attention in order to avoid specials, groups which can power through/skip Phase 2 have a much easier time as that is arguably the hardest phase. But even in phase 3 more clones/southern winds means your party is tested more.

So no speed runs do not make Garuda "harder".

Also AV/CC speed runs are not hard. An 18 minute speed run (which is as meaningless as a 19 minute 55 second speed run) not only is dependent on how fast you kill the bosses, but inane crap like how few clicks you get your AOE stops down to.

Oh and that too can be posted in a video or explained step by step to someone (in fact it is worse because you can basically tell people every action to perform from entry since AV/CC are so static). It is formulaic, it is boring, only it has the added bonus of being unforgivably nitpicky. It certainly makes it more taxing to farm, and harder to keep people interested in the content. So I suppose it is "challenging" in that way.

"There is nothing else they can do, speed runs are the ONLY way to make it hard!!!!"

Maybe if you have never played another MMO endgame in your life you might think that, but the truth is that burn fights are only one of a few types of endgame encounters. True not many MMO's apply that to the entire dungeon/instance but that is because to do so would be as annoying and tiresome as it has gotten in FFXIV. I WISH we had burn fights with rage timers, but that apparently is too hard so instead burning a boss is put on par with how fast your group can stand on a portal.

You can make definitely fights more dynamic to make them more challenging, like Garuda. Where people have to react to different situations every time they fight her (different wind phases, different abilities which are not strictly scripted and require you to react in different ways. That is what people praise Garuda for, not the Speed Run aspect. No one says "Oh wow, Garuda was SO easy the first time I did it, but then we tried a speed run and that is when the real challenge!!!!". In fact I'd wager the majority of people, even not counting all the people who exploited the bugged release got their first kill as a speed run.

Adds, incurable status effects, moving or interactive environments, randomized phases, I could go on listing off typical encounter mechanics which continuously challenge people to focus even once they "know the strategy" and yes I would hope that the people at SE can come up with new ones since that is their job and they are good at it. None of them is any less challenging then learning damage rotations for jobs. In fact fights which allow you to utilize a damage rotation are generally the easiest fights, once you know the optimal damage rotation you can pretty much go into zombie mode w/ it. The best endgame fights are the ones that break you out of a routine, and force you to play to the encounter.

Speed runs are lazy, and hopefully we only have them because they can't put more interesting mechanics in due to the current engine. It doesn't matter what MMO endgame you are talking about, speed was only a part of what it made it challenging, and the more damage you do the easier it always gets. That is how a DD contributes to any encounter, making it shorter and therefore easier.

Honestly, I think SE could change the difficulty of dungeons already in place every patch. Sorta how they change the way Chimera voice of the dragon or whatever works now. Or they could make the pits explode all the way to the outer edge of the ring instead of how they do now. To change up the difficulty every so often. I mean Ifrit can still be pretty random at times now.. I don't know, just talking out of my @$$ right now.

I think SE should have made you kill all three Primals with a class specific weapon then requiring you to luckily double meld it. Like wtf was SE thinking when they came up with this... they said hard specifically, not tedious bs that required luck. They act like the majority of us wouldn't stay if some of this stuff required some skill and we completed it already. I'm still here and seems like everyone else is. Why haven't they learned yet?

I mean the player polls even said that lol. Come on SE. Release us something that is fun and hard at the same time and not something that is tedious and required luck and an absurd amount of gil. It's cool that you made the class specific weapons be used to make the job specific weapons but actually make us DO somethign with them. Not waste gil to get lucky on some stupid double meld, then the weapon just be used away...

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Which then everyone can easily beat once a video surface on how to tackle them.

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Same can be said of speed runs really.

It's a shame the proliferation of the internet kind of works against the MMO genre, while you would think the free flow of information would be a good thing it leads to more challenges when designing content. Nothing will be perfect and no system can totally be made to test a individual players skill or if they just memorized a video and it's step by step instructions.

I still personally think something other than speed runs is the answer, even if it doesn't test skill either I just find that. Finding out what mobs you skip and what ones you zerg to death is not a fun way to run the dungeon I understand it creates alot of stress to do things properly but I want my dungeon runs to be fun and challenging. Speed runs are counter-productive in the "Fun" aspect for me at least.

I'm sure alot of people enjoy stretching themselves thin and seeing how fast they can do things, that in itself is a challenge I wont deny it. It's just not my idea of how we should be rewarding people, because it sucks to go into a dungeon with a odd-ball party setup manage to beat it and still get the short end of the stick because you didn't go in with the "A" team.

I think even having specific tasks *Let's say multiple tasks made for all sorts of different setups* that are optional give a way to reward people who go in with different kinds of teams but are still effective. While this is no way diminishes the effect of Youtubing the content I think it's a step in the right direction to reward a broader spectrum of players than just the Speed-demon teams.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Try it under 17 minutes
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post729526

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Just a question, as I am not on this stage yet. Does it need to be 17 mins or less but with picking up all chests along the way, or can you skip past chests and just race to the end? Does anyone know or can anyone ask on the JA side? I don't speak/write in Japanese to ask.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Just a question, as I am not on this stage yet. Does it need to be 17 mins or less but with picking up all chests along the way, or can you skip past chests and just race to the end? Does anyone know or can anyone ask on the JA side? I don't speak/write in Japanese to ask.

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(allegedly) Has to be 5 chest run, so you have to get everything

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

(allegedly) Has to be 5 chest run, so you have to get everything

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Good to know...I guess. Was only hoping to skip one chest anyway as if we have issues, it's over that one silly chest. /meh

Confirmed it has to be 5 chest or you don't get (guaranteed) anything.

Blazed through AV before 43:00 on the timer and PT reported no drop. I was lucky enough to d/c as Miser died, so I didn't get to open the box myself.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

And what is this creative way people keep talking about that will keep a content challenging everytime you enter despite having experience at it? If you are referring to what Jynx said, see my response after.

Yea i guess everyone did agree that garuda is the right way so far.

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Pull the one good thing(concept) from abyssea for the sake of scaling diffuculty. Make it increase/decrease mob and boss levels based on the speed your running through the raid, also scale drops based on the difficulty rating you achieve. The faster you run the harder it gets but the better(more likely) your rewards.

In a mass currency farming system this would affect the amount dropped/person at the completion of the raid, for single item(mythril and what have you) it would affect rates scaling from ~1%@max time up to ~99%@20minute run, as a for instance. To take it just a little further it could be a token+ system where you get your currency(totem w/e) x1 everytime but you get a [i]chance[/] based on how high you got the dungeons diffuculty rating to get a second/third/fourth/etc.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Same can be said of speed runs really.

It's a shame the proliferation of the internet kind of works against the MMO genre, while you would think the free flow of information would be a good thing it leads to more challenges when designing content. Nothing will be perfect and no system can totally be made to test a individual players skill or if they just memorized a video and it's step by step instructions.

I still personally think something other than speed runs is the answer, even if it doesn't test skill either I just find that. Finding out what mobs you skip and what ones you zerg to death is not a fun way to run the dungeon I understand it creates alot of stress to do things properly but I want my dungeon runs to be fun and challenging. Speed runs are counter-productive in the "Fun" aspect for me at least.

I'm sure alot of people enjoy stretching themselves thin and seeing how fast they can do things, that in itself is a challenge I wont deny it. It's just not my idea of how we should be rewarding people, because it sucks to go into a dungeon with a odd-ball party setup manage to beat it and still get the short end of the stick because you didn't go in with the "A" team.

I think even having specific tasks *Let's say multiple tasks made for all sorts of different setups* that are optional give a way to reward people who go in with different kinds of teams but are still effective. While this is no way diminishes the effect of Youtubing the content I think it's a step in the right direction to reward a broader spectrum of players than just the Speed-demon teams.

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Agreed. While people will inevitably find a way to blast through something in the current version, there is much better ways for SE to hold back that inevitability than speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Now I'm officially depressed ; ;.

If it takes these really fast runs to win, then I am pretty much out.
1 -- I'm on during odd times and can not find enough people to go with consistently to be able to do it that quickly. Beat CC/AV: No problem. Do it in < 17 minutes... that's a problem. Even with content finder this will be problematic.

2 -- I don't like super-fast-paced-blow-things-up-action games. When did final fantasy become so focused on being fast and an action game?


Not giving up on FFXIV.. just giving up on content like this. Hopefully it won't be the theme for the majority of content such that I have nothing else to do....

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Sadly, this seems to be the direction for now, we'll see at 2.0. So far with the mass pull for links AoE xp pt stylings, all "EG" stuff so far, cept maybe hamlet, being built around "How fast can you do it" well there's not a whole lot of the old think while you fight, it's all becoming fast-twitch muscle memory content and memorize the patterns scripted enemies.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Sadly, this seems to be the direction for now, we'll see at 2.0. So far with the mass pull for links AoE xp pt stylings, all "EG" stuff so far, cept maybe hamlet, being built around "How fast can you do it" well there's not a whole lot of the old think while you fight, it's all becoming fast-twitch muscle memory content and memorize the patterns scripted enemies.

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Hamlet is basically FFXIV's take on Plants vs. Zombies. While it is fun and unique to the MMO genre in it's own right, it still feels more like a mini-game than anything. The thing that makes it even easier is that all three Hamlets work exactly the same as in patterns. The tank kills the NM's and kites the boss, crafter/gatherers do the same routine, and WHM's heal archers. Even the NM's pop the same way. First NM pops in a unique location, second comes into the gate, and the zombie pops in a unique location after all mobs are defeated.

Hamlets are really not the hard part of the quest. The seals have been dropping, only reason I don't have many seals is simply because I keep losing at /random. The main concern is using RNG in general when people have complained numerous times (including myself) in the relic quest. There is no equal playing ground with people. It is either you are lucky or you are not.

While I don't like the concept of speed runs personally. I would much rather accept having to do a super speed run (in the current version) over hundreds of meaningless AV runs with .01% drop chance. If this is true my outlook on this entire step has changed from sitting there for many mind numbing hours to changing to as best as we possibly can be for a higher drop. This step will probably be a factor on who does or doesn't get a relic because compared to the other steps it's more skill based then luck.

Hrm... All this talk about speedrunning, I feel the need to blurt out an idea.

I'd love to see a boss or dungeon that's based on an "anti-speedrun". In that, if you do it too fast, you're going to die. You literally need to take it slow, and be on the ball at all times because if you drop it you die. Like a long-lasting endurance battle, you can't just complete it by killing stuff ASAP, but you also can't simply stop killing stuff, you need to hold out for a good while.
I guess that would be what Hamlet Defense is like, now that I think about it (I haven't played it yet), and if that's true i'm likely to like it a lot. But- I'd like to see more stuff based on attrition wars.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

While I don't like the concept of speed runs personally. I would much rather accept having to do a super speed run (in the current version) over hundreds of meaningless AV runs with .01% drop chance. If this is true my outlook on this entire step has changed from sitting there for many mind numbing hours to changing to as best as we possibly can be for a higher drop. This step will probably be a factor on who does or doesn't get a relic because compared to the other steps it's more skill based then luck.

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It's not really based on skill if you think about it. Zerg the enemies as fast as you can. WHY must content be focused on speeding through it and luck? Come on SE... give us something hard. Ifrit, Moogle, and Garuda can still be hard with randoms sometimes and Hamlet is super easy. QUIT making everything a speed run!

I am pretty sure killing something faster than normal is skill based.... It takes precision, optimized gear, skill rotation, positioning etc.... I don't know where you people bitching that doing something incredibly fast and nearly flawless isn't skill based are coming from. What exactly is your definition of skill?

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Originally Posted by Kiara

To: Yoshida-san and the FF14 Team

Seeing the requirements for just opening up the Quest for the Relic Weapons (not even earning the final Relic), I have one plea:

* Please STOP relying on the "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" to use as a Time Sink to keep the players busy.

...

Thank you!

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While I feel your pain (yet I don't really), I want relics too as the rest of us... new content will soon be over-shadowed by updates and even newer stuff. Your plee will fall on death ears. Making a kind of post that complains on the harsh efforts to make you play longer(even though you still do) anything done in game is to prolong the players to achieve a rewarding experience that fills them with a since of accomplishment and pride.

You and the (maybe) the hundreds of thousands of the rest of us want the same things and more. Make suggestions for the current system/ items and gear but we shouldn't act as we know better about managing an mmorpg and its content. It'll only get better as time goes by and more is available I'm sure. The longer it take for elitist to complete content and less likely they'll complain on how easy or how much ffxiv lack in content and replay value. Take care and don't forget your school work, your job, friends and family.

Anyone in this topic confirm 5chest 17min run?