Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

You learn your job and rotation prior to doing content so you are learning the content and not your job. If you know your job going into content if on a very basic and non-optimal manner you are going to be able to learn the content more efficiently. It's all a very simple thing, but a thing the majority of the player base doesn't do.

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And again, people learn differently.

I do not learn how to play my class outside of content. I only learn while actually in the content.

I can practice a rotation until the cows come home on a dummy and it will barely affect how it plays in the content. Because the boss does things the dummy does not. Such as move, place AoE's etc. Because there are 3+ people that are at various skill levels that may affect my ability to DPS.

For me, the real learning begins when I start doing the actual content.

Please stop telling me that how I learn, when you are not me. I have spent several years figuring out how I learn. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It is the definition of "Selfish". Something many consider an undesirable trait.
Ultimately it's up to you what you value or what morals you hold, but many people will look down upon someone who always considers themselves first in every situation.

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Aye, yeah I do not see being selfish as inherently wrong or undesirable. In the end if you do not care for your own self who will in the end? Can really only count on yourself when it comes to helping yourself or doing what it takes to enjoy your own life.

I guess if the view comes from a moral point of view I can get it. Though it does make me wonder if people really extend a helping hand to people or do they preach some things over the convince of the internet and a video game as a means of making one self feel better about their position.

I guess from a moral pov it seems like moral grand standing then anything else.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Even better, that brags how they take someone else so they can make sure the kick goes through. Two more people and they could have a premade and not have to deal with the "undesirables"

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Do not recall bragging about anything. You are right though more often then not I do queue with full groups to avoid playing with others though sometimes the time of day does not permit full groups. So yeah I will vote kick people out.

I just fail to see how what I am doing is wrong outside of some baseline emotional plea or understanding of empathy towards others.

I get people may disagree with my stance and I am cool with that. Though I still ak extremely confused as to why what I am doing is seen as inherently wrong, and to a degree I suspect immoral to some since I show utter lack of caring towards other people.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Do not recall bragging about anything. You are right though more often then not I do queue with full groups to avoid playing with others though sometimes the time of day does not permit full groups. So yeah I will vote kick people out.

I just fail to see how what I am doing is wrong outside of some baseline emotional plea or understanding of empathy towards others.

I get people may disagree with my stance and I am cool with that. Though I still ak extremely confused as to why what I am doing is seen as inherently wrong, and to a degree I suspect immoral to some since I show utter lack of caring towards other people.

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"In the end if the vote passes then clearly the group thought they were deserving, especially when you stack the vote in your favor by bringing a friend along. :P"

Don't consider that bragging?

Of course the truly wild thing is before that you talked about how you'll work to kill a friend even if it causes a wipe.

Your outlook here has definitely come off really selfish, out for yourself and your own enjoyment, and screw anyone else in the game. It's not about an emotional plea but just being a decent party mate to those who get stuck with you.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

"In the end if the vote passes then clearly the group thought they were deserving, especially when you stack the vote in your favor by bringing a friend along. :P"

Don't consider that bragging?

Of course the truly wild thing is before that you talked about how you'll work to kill a friend even if it causes a wipe.

Your outlook here has definitely come off really selfish, out for yourself and your own enjoyment, and screw anyone else in the game. It's not about an emotional plea but just being a decent party mate to those who get stuck with you.

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I mean if the vote passes then yeah even if I queue with a friend that is the will of the group following SE rules for vote removal. The majority of those able to vote determine the outcome of the person getting voted. That is kind of a fact if the system in place.

You can dislike the system and a change regarding how premade votes should count is a valid concern but not sure how what I said is bragging. This seems more like one of those cases where people tell me just because I can do something does not mean I should. Which often stems from an emotional plea based around their own moral system.

That is the thing I know I am selfish my question is how is that inherently wrong? It appears you view it as wrong under your own standard based around your own emotional bias regarding being a decent party mate. I for one do not care about strangers as stated for the most part I view most strangers in the game as nothing more then advice trusts.

I am okay with being called selfish just like in IRL I am just confused because people make it seem like it is a bad thing to care more so about yourself and your own enjoyment over others.

Guess overall people are throwing around the word selfish like it should bother me, it more so confuses me since I do not see being selfish as an inherent bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Do not recall bragging about anything. You are right though more often then not I do queue with full groups to avoid playing with others though sometimes the time of day does not permit full groups. So yeah I will vote kick people out.

I just fail to see how what I am doing is wrong outside of some baseline emotional plea or understanding of empathy towards others.

I get people may disagree with my stance and I am cool with that. Though I still ak extremely confused as to why what I am doing is seen as inherently wrong, and to a degree I suspect immoral to some since I show utter lack of caring towards other people.

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Please look up Sociopath.

This is not a name calling thing. This is not accusatory. You actually sound like a sociopath.

You seem to perfectly understand that others hold different values, maybe the missing piece for you here is that your position is not typical. In general people are expected to care what happens to others and at least not cause suffering for their own benefit.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

I do not learn how to play my class outside of content. I only learn while actually in the content.

I can practice a rotation until the cows come home on a dummy and it will barely affect how it plays in the content. Because the boss does things the dummy does not. Such as move, place AoE's etc. Because there are 3+ people that are at various skill levels that may affect my ability to DPS.

For me, the real learning begins when I start doing the actual content.

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Never mind the fact that healing can only be learned by doing content. Smashing a dummy teaches NOTHING about healing. Reading a guide isn't enough because healing doesn't have rotations. You can't follow a pattern of healing buttons that someone else recommends and then be guaranteed a path of success. In combat you are presented with a situation and you react to it, and what you need to do can wildly vary not just because of the content but also because of the players you're with. A guide also can't teach you how to make snap decisions, which is essential for healing, only combat experience can teach you that.

That isn't to say healing guides are useless but compared to dps guides they have very limited use. They can teach some great theory but that theory is useless if you lack the experience to be able to constantly make and weigh decisions about every single thing you do without standing around like a deer in the headlights. A healer who has read loads of guides and has little to no combat experience would perform far worse than a healer who read no guides and has only used combat experience to learn.

This idea that duties aren't for learning is ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous. I agree that max lvl duty content isn't for learning the basics of your role, but it is still there for learning how to play. How else are people supposed to learn how to play their class effectively at max lvl in a hectic environment? Guides cannot teach that. At best they can recommend suggestions but no list like that can prepare a person for everything. Only combat experience can. Even ex and savage exists for learning to a degree. It's not a coincidence that seasoned raiders are usually far better than novices. It's also why earlier bosses in the tier are easier than the later bosses. I think ultimate is the only content in which anyone can claim is absolutely not for learning because it demands consistent peak performance from the entire team.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

And like I said, a well researched and put together guide is likely going to overwhelm me. And people don't learn good when they are overwhelmed.

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I have had this exact experience. I tried to look up guides first before playing much of a class/spec back in WoW and every time I did I couldn't retain the information at all because I had no point of reference for most of it. What good is it to me if the guide recommends that I use abilities that I don't even have yet? How am I supposed to understand why a guide is telling me "if situation X happens do Y" when I don't even know what being in situation X feels like? I didn't remember a lot of what I read because I lacked context that I can only gain in combat. Without that it made the information difficult to remember.

Not everyone processes information in the same way, and with time I found that going to guides for my first step in learning is terrible for a player like me. I have always gotten the best results from learning how to play in content. Now what I do is I learn the class in content and when I feel I understand it THEN I look up a guide to see if I have missed anything.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Some of us have to actually go into dungeons to learn - us hands on learners. Some players likely need someone giving them instructions over voice chat because they are auditory learners. Some, like you apparently, are visual learners and learn primarily by reading.

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I don't think OP cares, they basically said other players need to study as if they're in school to be worthy of the experience of playing with them.

With healing, outside of Savage, can be purely reactionary. Even in savage it's only take once (we'll use WHM for example) to decide if you need to use Medica 2 or can get away with Asylum, or if you need to eat the GCD hit an use a lily. These are not some long, arduous things to learn. They are simple and straightforward.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

With healing, outside of Savage, can be purely reactionary. Even in savage it's only take once (we'll use WHM for example) to decide if you need to use Medica 2 or can get away with Asylum, or if you need to eat the GCD hit an use a lily. These are not some long, arduous things to learn. They are simple and straightforward.

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Once? Not all savage fights only follow one pattern. Some fights go on different paths depending on what the boss does at certain points in the fight. I remember o7s being like this. Also when you're doing progress people make mistakes or die and you encounter parts of the fight you have not experienced yet so you still have to be able to make snap decisions to perform adequately whether that's from mopping up mistakes, or figuring out on the spot how to handle a situation because something you would normally use is on cd. You may even find you have to rethink what you do earlier in the fight based on what you end up finding out you'll need later. Learning how to heal a savage encounter is not a one and done. One pull is not enough. It's not a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Once? Not all savage fights only follow one pattern. Some fights go on different paths depending on what the boss does at certain points in the fight. I remember o7s being like this. Also when you're doing progress people make mistakes or die and you encounter parts of the fight you have not experienced yet so you still have to be able to make snap decisions to perform adequately whether that's from mopping up mistakes, or figuring out on the spot how to handle a situation because something you would normally use is on cd. You may even find you have to rethink what you do earlier in the fight based on what you end up finding out you'll need later. Learning how to heal a savage encounter is not a one and done. One pull is not enough. It's not a dungeon.

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You are making it to be way harder than what it is. Considering, atleast with WHM as it's the healer is did Eden Gate Savage on, you really only use 3 of your AoE healing abilities, 4 if you have to use Cure 3 for some reason. Medica 2 is going to do most of your heavy lifting, Asylum is better as you don't lose a gcd. However, it's a bit more limited due to CD. You use a lily or a buffed lily if you need spot healing fast. Assize is used as a pure damage cd. It's all very simple and doesn't take alot to learn. What you are talking about is learning content, not a job. Also alot of the issue you are talking about happen in prog, as you shouldn't be running in recovery scenarios in clear runs.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

And again, people learn differently.

I do not learn how to play my class outside of content. I only learn while actually in the content.

I can practice a rotation until the cows come home on a dummy and it will barely affect how it plays in the content. Because the boss does things the dummy does not. Such as move, place AoE's etc. Because there are 3+ people that are at various skill levels that may affect my ability to DPS.

For me, the real learning begins when I start doing the actual content.

Please stop telling me that how I learn, when you are not me. I have spent several years figuring out how I learn. Thank you.

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No matter how hard you try, you are never going to get through to this person. All they care about is their agenda and finding anyone willing to stroke their heavily inflated ego. Ultimately, no one else's opinions matter.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

No matter how hard you try, you are never going to get through to this person. All they care about is their agenda and finding anyone willing to stroke their heavily inflated ego. Ultimately, no one else's opinions matter.

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Ah yes the issue is my "inflated" ego, not people covering for purposeful bad play. Please do continue with the zingers.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

You are making it to be way harder than what it is. Considering, atleast with WHM as it's the healer is did Eden Gate Savage on, you really only use 3 of your AoE healing abilities, 4 if you have to use Cure 3 for some reason. Medica 2 is going to do most of your heavy lifting, Asylum is better as you don't lose a gcd. However, it's a bit more limited due to CD. You use a lily or a buffed lily if you need spot healing fast. Assize is used as a pure damage cd. It's all very simple and doesn't take alot to learn. What you are talking about is learning content, not a job. Also alot of the issue you are talking about happen in prog, as you shouldn't be running in recovery scenarios in clear runs.

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But one doesn't go to end game content to learn their class.

By the time a player is in savage content, they should have learned their role and class.

We're not talking about those players.

We're talking the players still learning their class and therefore using the duty finder. You can't get upset at getting paired with under-performing players in duty finder because you chose to enter the duty finder without a full group. Which means you have given the ok to be paired with players who are not experts at their class or role or may even be still learning their role/class or returning from a break and may be rusty.

Not all of us have a desire to do end game content that requires the performance of your rotation and mechanics to near perfection in order to progress. Some of us are just fine as long as progress being made in normal content. That progress may be as simple as a wipe at 75% the first time and then a wipe at 50% the next time. That's progress. Might not be the speed of progress that you prefer from non-end game content. And people in general tend to learn more from failure than success. Especially in instances where success may be by pure coincidence.

So some of us the end goal of learning our class may not be as far as someone who aims to try for world firsts in savage raiding.

Yes, the game could do more in encouraging players to increase their skill level. But it needs to tread carefully with any difficulty increase, should that happen, as to not alienate too many of the people who would fall below any new minimum level required. A sharp increase would likely cause more harm than a gradual increase.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

You are making it to be way harder than what it is.

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So...am I to take from this the following:

• You do not think players in savage can make mistakes that cause healers to need to make snap decisions on how to deal with that
• You think players only make mistakes at convenient times when it's easy to fix and not at bad times when recovering from it can be difficult or even impossible
• You think that no one ever has to rethink when they use their cds earlier in the fight due to the demands that come later in the fight
• You think it takes just one pull to see exactly how little healing you can get away with even if you do not know exactly when the next hard hitting ability is because you have not experienced it yet
• You think that every single savage boss in the game follows only one pattern of mechanics with zero deviation that could cause a healer to make different choices in what they do

I didn't say savage healing is some sort of incredibly complex journey that only the most dedicated can complete. Yet you are acting as if I said this. I only pointed out that healers absolutely need to learn how to deal with the unexpected to be able to play effectively in savage.

Savage is very pattern heavy, it's true. But players are not. Players are unpredictable because people are flawed. They make mistakes, and the team needs to learn how to deal with mistakes quickly to be able to press on with a pull to get to success sooner. It is essential for healers to have snap decision making to complete savage because that is required to get through progress which is riddled with mistakes even if you read guides. And learning that skill well enough to be at a good base for savage can only be done through dealing with the unpredictability of players by doing DF content.

You're grasping at straws with this line of conversation and frankly making yourself look as if you don't know what it's like to heal in savage. I think you're just salty because I countered your "you should read class guides before doing content" with saying that healers need to do content to learn how to heal.

Imagine being offended when someone says that spamming buttons at a dummy you read about in a guide will not teach you how to heal. Lol.

I mean you kind of become numb to savage after doing it for multiple xpacs. Furthermore, I stand by my statement that reading a guide is the way. Even for healing, as those go into depth of when to or when not to use certain abilities over others. Also, when I was healing savage my cohealer was dead weight, so I was having to carry healing that tier.

Guides for healers are pretty important too.

I've seen a lot of people that never used more than fourth of their healing kit and then either refusing to take any advice when struggling ("i know what im doing thanks") or throw blame on other party members when someone dies.
Most of those are also "hands-on learners" that went wrong path at some point.
Hell, i was like that in the beginning until i actually watched/read few job guides. Didn't take long to pick up the pace and healing comfortably everywhere.

Please, even if you prefer hands-on approach, please still check out a guide or two at least for some insight about how can you make your and other party member's life easier later.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Ah yes the issue is my "inflated" ego, not people covering for purposeful bad play. Please do continue with the zingers.

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Nobody likes "purposeful" bad play, because that is what we usually call trolling (well, nobody except the trolls themselves, probably). Maybe consider to stop always assuming that when people are not performing as well as you would like when they're playing with you--especially during content where you're paired randomly with millions other random players, each with their own situation and circumstance--that they're doing it "purposefully", as if they're moustache-twirling villains chuckling at the sight of the Great Caurcas breaking his back trying to carry the whole team.

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Guides for healers are pretty important too.

I've seen a lot of people that never used more than fourth of their healing kit and then either refusing to take any advice when struggling ("i know what im doing thanks") or throw blame on other party members when someone dies.
Most of those are also "hands-on learners" that went wrong path at some point.
Hell, i was like that in the beginning until i actually watched/read few job guides. Didn't take long to pick up the pace and healing comfortably everywhere.

Please, even if you prefer hands-on approach, please still check out a guide or two at least for some insight about how can you make your and other party member's life easier later.

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I agree with this. Seeing guides is generally useful for all jobs, to better prepare oneself when they're thrown practicing on the real content.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Nobody likes "purposeful" bad play, because that is what we usually call trolling (well, nobody except the trolls themselves, probably). Maybe consider to stop always assuming that when people are not performing as well as you would like when they're playing with you, that they're doing it "purposefully"

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Depends on the context i guess. If someone is performing badly and doesn't want to get any help, I'd personally consider it to be "purposeful".

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Depends on the context i guess. If someone is performing badly and doesn't want to get any help, I'd personally consider it to be "purposeful".

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Well yes, it's not like I like when people who are performing badly is replying harshly or unfavorably when they're being given advice on what to do. I think there is a disconnect in that folks are assuming that people who disagreed with the OP are happy when things like that are happening--no we're not, of course we'd--or at least I--would be displeased.

The difference is at that at least I, personally, wouldn't automatically think badly of any players or any team that is not performing well when doing content. My first reaction to them wouldn't be that they're doing it out of malicious intentions, and I try to be accommodating as much as possible since I couldn't possibly know their situation and I'm not gonna judge them because of that, especially since like I said, using DF means understanding that you are being paired randomly with millions other people, each with their own unique situation and circumstance. You couldn't possibly hope of expecting that every time you are using it you are going to always get what you want to get (although I found that the whole "the entire community is filled of entirely incompetent people" as an extreme exaggeration)

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

The difference is at that at least I, personally, wouldn't automatically think badly of any players or any team that is not performing well when doing content.

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Depends on the level too.
While I don't always think badly of everyone who is struggling by default, i do get extreme concern when someone is struggling at 70+ content.
Not everyone shares same reaction as you or me though, and i know quite a bit of people that don't tolerate well bad players in 80lvl content and i can understand it - you would expect player to understand what they are doing by the time they finished ARR and 3 expansions. Mechanic markers, at least basic rotation (have you ever seen red mage that only used melee attacks in nier tower?), basic knowledge of the kit they have.

And it's true, df can group you with various players, but even then, expecting competence is... Well, to be expected. XIV is an mmorpg, a team game. You don't play solo, you play with others, so its only fair to expect people to not try to let others down. But it still happens from time to time. Kinda why i usually disagree with notion of "you signed up for df, deal with it".

No its okay to be bad in DF, the other players are suppose to carry you after all.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

No its okay to be bad in DF, the other players are suppose to carry you after all.

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are you still on this crusade of yours?

Give it a rest already, Caurcas. Go solo palace of the dead or something; that's plenty hard and doesn't require you to play with other players.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

are you still on this crusade of yours?

Give it a rest already, Caurcas. Go solo palace of the dead or something; that's plenty hard and doesn't require you to play with other players.

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All they want to do is frame themselves as some sort of DF messiah sent from the heavens to deliver us from all the toxic casuals "ruining" the player base. The sad part is I really don't believe they are trolling. They fully believe the word vomit they are spewing, and that's even worse than being a troll.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

All they want is to do is frame themselves as some sort of DF messiah sent from the heavens to deliver us from all the toxic casuals "ruining" the player base. The sad part is I really don't believe they are trolling. They fully believe the word vomit they are spewing, and that's even worse than being a troll.

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Oh I know they're not trolling, which is why I bothered to at least try to tell them to bugger off to solo content and find some measure of inner peace. All that anger and self-vindication can't be good for them.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

All they want is to do is frame themselves as some sort of DF messiah sent from the heavens to deliver us from all the toxic casuals "ruining" the player base. The sad part is I really don't believe they are trolling. They fully believe the word vomit they are spewing, and that's even worse than being a troll.

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Bruh, I just want us to respect each others time. Its a simple thing that you've got twisted into me having some sort of complex. Six years of having to deal with people not respecting the time of others makes a person bitter.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Bruh, I just want us to respect each others time. Its a simple thing that you've got twisted into me having some sort of complex. Six years of having to deal with people not respecting the time of others makes a person bitter.

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I'm not twisting anything. You clearly have some sort of complex.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'm not twisting anything. You clearly have some sort of complex.

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Thanks doctor!

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It is the definition of "Selfish". Something many consider an undesirable trait.
Ultimately it's up to you what you value or what morals you hold, but many people will look down upon someone who always considers themselves first in every situation.

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The problem with this is that many of those "casuals" are the most selfish people in the game. With their I don't care how my performance is ruining everyone elses fun so I dont need to learn my job attitudes aloing with their super insane levels of entitlement absolutely crushing the signinficance and value of in game stuff for everyone else for no reason other than "because I want it"

This is quite literally the most selfish thing in the game.. Absolutely no one prevents them from getting something the same way everyone else does but their own laziness and entitlement is pure selfishness.

Why shoulld I make an effort I cant be arsed. Who cares if iIm dragging 3, 7, 23 other people down.....

And then they're the ones who say the "good" players are the selfish "elitist" ones..

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Originally Posted by Dzian

...and then they're the ones who say the good players are the selfish ones..

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I was kinda always amused at that ngl. Its like they think that as long as they are benefitting from that, its not selfish.

I never understood the "Wasting people's time" argument. It's in every aspect of your life, you can not escape it. Work, Home, School, Store, Amusement parks, library. Do you just openly talk to the people in line in front of you at the Grocery store and complain that paying in 1$ because it is wasting everyone's time. They pay the same amount of money you do, why is your money/time worth more than anyone else? On the forums, complaints like that come across as someone just wanting to complain, not actively try to fix the situation.

Anyhow if you want to change the world for the better I'm all for it, but the best way to do it is to lead by example. I think "attacking" someone or pointing them out is just going to make them dig their heels in. A post complaining about "My Time!!" is not really going to make someone change their ways. *shrugs* just my 29gil

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Originally Posted by Eric_Riot

I never understood the "Wasting people's time" argument. It's in every aspect of your life, you can not escape it. Work, Home, School, Store, Amusement parks, library. Do you just openly talk to the people in line in front of you at the Grocery store and complain that paying in 1$ because it is wasting everyone's time. They pay the same amount of money you do, why is your money/time worth more than anyone else? On the forums, complaints like that come across as someone just wanting to complain, not actively try to fix the situation.

Anyhow if you want to change the world for the better I'm all for it, but the best way to do it is to lead by example. I think "attacking" someone or pointing them out is just going to make them dig their heels in. A post complaining about "My Time!!" is not really going to make someone change their ways. *shrugs* just my 29gil

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Some elements in life you cannot control, but you can control those who you play with. Either by grouping with friends or removing them if that is the consensus of the party, even venting about on a forum offers an aspect or sense of control.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Bruh, I just want us to respect each others time. Its a simple thing that you've got twisted into me having some sort of complex. Six years of having to deal with people not respecting the time of others makes a person bitter.

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You're clearly very strapped for time.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You're clearly very strapped for time.

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If they weren't strapped for time, they wouldn't spend so much of it posting in this thread. Clearly.

Please do continue to defend playing poorly. I am sure the parasites appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Please do continue to defend playing poorly. I am sure the parasites appreciate it.

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Not one of us has defended the parasites. We're not defending cure bots or ice mages or tanks who intentionally play spin the boss or the player who thinks they can AFK.

We're defending the players for whom guides don't work for them to learn content/job. For the player who might get the gist of the guide but needs to play with the unpredictability that comes with playing with others brings. We're defending the normally superb player who is having a bad day in game and making mistakes they normally wouldn't make. We're defending the player who has had a horrible sudden burst of lag mid-dungeon. We're defending the player with a disability whose skill cap is lower than others due to the disability.

I get where you are coming from and it is commendable that you are willing to offer such considerations which by in large require one to make assumptions regarding the other player.

Though both require an assumption to be made regarding the player. In the end both of you are essentially having a disagreement over the the same stance just the different side of the coin. At the core your positions are not that dissimilar. Your paragon for life and he his renegade for life.

Sorry been playing Mass Effect. At this point it is a clear case if agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Not one of us has defended the parasites. We're not defending cure bots or ice mages or tanks who intentionally play spin the boss or the player who thinks they can AFK.

We're defending the players...

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... who are picking a job, or even the game, back up after not playing it for a bit, and they're a little rusty.

We're defending the players who recently swapped around a few things on their hotbars and are still getting used to things (the training dummy doesn't help me remember I put my interrupt over here)

The players who had a bad/hard day and just want to relax, so they que into a flippin dungeon (no stakes) to see SAM go brrr.

The players who went into content, and then through no fault of their own have something IRL asking for their attention and distracting them.

The players who've trying, but don't yet realize they're missing something, or performing their rotation non-optimally, and don't deserve ire and blacklisting for the incredible transgression of maybe making an alliance raid take a little longer.

We're defending people who aren't doing anything wrong or malicious, yet are being attacked behind their backs.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Not one of us has defended the parasites. We're not defending cure bots or ice mages or tanks who intentionally play spin the boss or the player who thinks they can AFK.

We're defending the players for whom guides don't work for them to learn content/job. For the player who might get the gist of the guide but needs to play with the unpredictability that comes with playing with others brings. We're defending the normally superb player who is having a bad day in game and making mistakes they normally wouldn't make. We're defending the player who has had a horrible sudden burst of lag mid-dungeon. We're defending the player with a disability whose skill cap is lower than others due to the disability.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

... who are picking a job, or even the game, back up after not playing it for a bit, and they're a little rusty.

We're defending the players who recently swapped around a few things on their hotbars and are still getting used to things (the training dummy doesn't help me remember I put my interrupt over here)

The players who had a bad/hard day and just want to relax, so they que into a flippin dungeon (no stakes) to see SAM go brrr.

The players who went into content, and then through no fault of their own have something IRL asking for their attention and distracting them.

The players who've trying, but don't yet realize they're missing something, or performing their rotation non-optimally, and don't deserve ire and blacklisting for the incredible transgression of maybe making an alliance raid take a little longer.

We're defending people who aren't doing anything wrong or malicious, yet are being attacked behind their backs.

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OP has been told this several times. They don't care. They view all those people you listed the same as leeches. When they see someone not playing to their personal standard they take it as a personal insult. With OP it's always about how other people are disrespecting their time, wasting their time, taking advantage of them. It's all about what other players are doing to them. They view themselves as a victim.

The bads did not want to improve. So instead of reflecting on themselves and reading a guide, they blamed the "elitist".

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The bads did not want to improve. So instead of reflecting on themselves and reading a guide, they blamed the "elitist".

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Where in my post did I mention that we were supporting those who were not wanting to improve and blaming others?

Because I can't find it.

You really need to realize that not everyone is as fast at learning things as you or has your learning style. You'll be much happier in the end.