The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Totobi

There's really only two ways to play this game lol. Sadly too many people (especially healers) decide to pick the lazy way.

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You can try to single out healers as lazy all you want, but 2 out of 3 dungeons I do I come across at least one DPS job doing only 50% or less of the DPS they could be doing with their gear etc. (My friend reported to me a BRD in our dungeon doing 250 DPS at 60 in full i180 one time.)

Also have had tanks many times where I never saw a single cooldown for the whole dungeon.

I spend a lot of time in cleric stance so these runs end up not being too slow (holy spam is very broken), but I don't know why people always come to the forum and single out healers as the ultimate problem and people are never lazy on other jobs too.

It seems to me this whole argument is pointless, since you can come across "lazy" players on pretty much any job available in the game. So the argument here shouldn't be about healers being lazy it should be that the community as a whole needs to start trying to better themselves...and also remember this is just a video game and not to get so worked up over such things that you start calling people with differing opinions stupid or start being a troll.

There are numerous threads calling out DPS and Tanks too. Healer DPS is just a really hot topic currently.

Should've seen the tank section when the STR Meta was still "new".

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Originally Posted by Miste

You can try to single out healers as lazy all you want, but 2 out of 3 dungeons I do I come across at least one DPS job doing only 50% or less of the DPS they could be doing with their gear etc.

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The OP started it about healers however. Boh your examples are also lazy players.

Also no one singles out healers, did you not see the whole parser threads about lazy dps?

And yes, the community as a whole can improve and yes every class has lazy players

Again people say lazy as a curse. Just lol. Lazy people don't care if you call them lazy, this is not the right way to achieve a "better community".

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

There are numerous threads calling out DPS and Tanks too. Healer DPS is just a really hot topic currently.

Should've seen the tank section when the STR Meta was still "new".

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I avoid both the Tank and Healer subforums now because of how bad it got for awhile. >.>

I just dipped my head back in the tank forums, first two 10+ page threads are about VIT vs STR tanking. I guess that's still a hot topic as well.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Again people say lazy as a curse. Just lol. Lazy people don't care if you call them lazy, this is not the right way to achieve a "better community".

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Can a discussion on a game forum that only a tiny portion of the players in the game even visit, let alone take part in, have any impact on the community. And was the goal of the discussion ever to make the community better?

The most impact you can possibly hope for from a disscussion here is that the devs take feedback and use it in changing the actaul game design, thus changing the games meta. How in the world do you think a discussion of a topic like this, between people from all different servers and data centers who cannot set up a way to even play with each other is going to have an impact on the community? And how is being lazy any better for the community than someone pointing out that being lazy is in fact lazy?

The most you could hope for outside of devs altering the game is to find enough people on your server to create a LS oe FC and surround yourself with a small community that play the game by the same meta.

I'm surprised this is 81 pages, why can't it come down to if your healer want to dps do dps if someone doesn't want to do dps let them not do dps its not hurting the run your still clearing your dungeon/trial lol

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Originally Posted by Remus

I'm surprised this is 81 pages, why can't it come down to if your healer want to dps do dps if someone doesn't want to do dps let them not do dps its nut hurting the run your still clearing your dungeon/trial lol

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It's slower. And no one is saying they can't do what they want, they're saying they aren't going to like them for doing so.

I mean, you can enjoy Jersey Shore. But I'm still going to judge you for it.

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Originally Posted by Remus

I'm surprised this is 81 pages, why can't it come down to if your healer want to dps do dps if someone doesn't want to do dps let them not do dps its nut hurting the run your still clearing your dungeon/trial lol

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This. I don't care if my tank is full vit when I'm healing, nor do I care if the healer doesn't DPS if I'm tanking. Live and let go, as long as I clear the thing I'm good.

And yes Whiteroom, being lazy is not better than calling out people for being lazy, that's exactly my point: no one is better because they're not lazy. TBH, where I live, we would all be considered lazy people for spending so much time in a game.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

It's slower. And no one is saying they can't do what they want, they're saying they aren't going to like them for doing so.

I mean, you can enjoy Jersey Shore. But I'm still going to judge you for it.

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This, why do people assume that having the ability to make a choice means everyone has to think you are great for making it?

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Originally Posted by Remus

I'm surprised this is 81 pages, why can't it come down to if your healer want to dps do dps if someone doesn't want to do dps let them not do dps its nut hurting the run your still clearing your dungeon/trial lol

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But isn't having the goal of just clearing a dungeon such a mediocre and half hearted way of running? These dungeons are all quite simple to clear. To base the only expectation you have of the run as "clearing" is just so meh. Just clearing a run is an acceptable goal for maybe things like first runs, or doing min ilvl syncs in trials/raids you have already completed 100 times.

That a lot of people are well overgeared for the dungeons and have run them dozens of times already, and to have the goal at simply clearing... well that says a lot.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I spend a lot of time in cleric stance so these runs end up not being too slow (holy spam is very broken),

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Holy not broken, broken means SE messed something up and never fixed it. They nerfed Holy on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Holy not broken, broken means SE messed something up and never fixed it. They nerfed Holy on purpose.

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I just meant broken in the sense I pull really high DPS numbers with it (along with Assize, and Aero III), plus it stuns which makes me able to do even more casts. Compared to AST for example their Gravity has no extra benefit on it, you only have one AoE stun (Celestial Opposition) which is a long cool down. It's just my personal opinion that Holy seems pretty broken with how much DPS I can do with it. Maybe I am just not as good with AST but I can't pull as big DPS on it because it doesn't have something equal to Holy.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

But isn't having the goal of just clearing a dungeon such a mediocre and half hearted way of running?

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It's important to remember that there are kind of two overarching player mentalities in games like this (and in games in general): there's a "game as sport" (let's say) mentality, that focuses on competition, honing skills, and one's betterment as a player; and then there is a sort of "game as leisure" mentality, which focuses more on a relaxed sort of enjoyment. Some players espouse both mentalities in varying sorts of content or based on varying moods. (I tend more toward sport on my main, NIN, which I use for progression, and leisure on my alt jobs, for instance.)

Neither way is necessarily more valid than the other—but for either side to expect the other to conform to what they enjoy is nearsighted and ultimately displays a lack of empathy and understanding.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It's important to remember that there are kind of two overarching player mentalities in games like this (and in games in general): there's a "game as sport" (let's say) mentality, that focuses on competition, honing skills, and one's betterment as a player; and then there is a sort of "game as leisure" mentality, which focuses more on a relaxed sort of enjoyment. Some players espouse both mentalities in varying sorts of content or based on varying moods. (I tend more toward sport on my main, NIN, which I use for progression, and leisure on my alt jobs, for instance.)

Neither way is necessarily more valid than the other—but for either side to expect the other to conform to what they enjoy is nearsighted and ultimately displays a lack of empathy and understanding.

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This is known and understood. And it is usually when you get people at the extreme ends of each spectrum that you see sparks. However setting the bar at the bare minimum and accepting that as fine is an objectively a low standard regardless of viewing it as sport or leisure. There are exceptions of course, like everything. Also, using these outlooks still does not excuse that you are running these instances in a team enviroment and concessions have to be made by those involved for everyone to have the most enjoyable run in the player configuration given.

The overgeared healer that refuses to do more than the absolute minimum in a group where the other three are overgeared and pushing is no better than the overgeared tank that tries the biggest pulls in dps stance while the other three are min ilvl, or the dps that runs and pulls all the extra mobs to a tank that can't handle it.


Just like most parser threads, where when people say the expect a little effort from players, and some go "SORRY I'M NOT LEET WORLD FIRST DPS." Some think dpsing in heal stance mean you have to absolutely optomise every runs as soon as its brought up. All that is really being said is that taking the bare minimum route is lazy, regardless of your views on the game as sport or leisure, and it is.

Also everyone has the odd lazy run. Hell, I do from time to time, that doesn't mean I'm not being lazy when I do it.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, yes, it's understood, but that understanding is not often very well communicated...

But from the vitriol that gets thrown around (again, whether people like it or not, some folks take offense to being called lazy in a game they play for leisure), one could be forgiven for thinking that healer DPS is the only thing that makes a difference between a 15 minute run and a 45 minute one.

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Posting here due to stupid forum post limitations...

Well, tbh, a lot of it is the over reaction that a large number people have to any comments on playstyle. In the end, I agree with most of what you have said.

As far as the healer dps being the biggest difference in a run. Idealy it should be, and I believe in a run with decent dps, who push reasonable numbers, it is. Of course we have to get over the state of dps in this game for that to happen, which I don't believe can be done without first introducing some forum of metric or parser (but thats a whole other can of worms and better for a parser thread than here.)


As far as them taking offense to being called lazy, when they are in fact being lazy, thats fine as well. If it offends them so much, my only advice is to stop being lazy or get over it. If you can't accept being viewed in a certian way, then don't be that way alternatively be happy with the method you choose to play.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

It's rewarding because I don't have to sit in a god awful dungeon that makes me want to tear my own eyes out from sheer boredom, how's that?

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And there's the crux of your whole problem. You can't stand having to play this game. But you seem not to have noticed that it's a game. You don't have to play it if you don't want to. If the game is that horribly boring to you, then just turn it off. Find another game to play, read a book, or whatever it is that actually makes you happy. You shouldn't be spending your leisure time on anything that makes you want to tear your own eyes out from sheer boredom. And you certainly shouldn't be using the fact that you don't want to be there in the first place as a reason to ruin it for the people who do want to be there.

Now, there are of course other reasons for liking to go fast that are actually valid. As I pointed out earlier, some players enjoy the extra danger and excitement of a fast run, so playing that way delights them. But it clearly doesn't delight you. If there were anything in this game that delighted you, then that's what you'd be doing instead of that dungeon you can't stand.

NOTHING in the game is mandatory. If you don't like something, then simply don't do it. You're doing both yourself and anyone with the misfortune of being grouped with you a horrible disservice by being where you don't belong. Runs should never be geared towards players who who don't even want to be there in the fist place.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

This is known and understood.

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As I mentioned earlier in the thread, yes, it's understood, but that understanding is not often very well communicated. It's as though many of the "pro-DPS" players don't seem to realize that most people take offense to being called lazy, and then wonder why their perspectives are met with so much resistance by those players who don't wish to always be pushing themselves to the limit.

This is in fact a team game, yes, and I advocate for any player to play at a level of play that they find comfortable and enjoyable (even when I'm being "lazy" on healer, I still DPS—but my comfort level is such that I can relax and do so). But most especially in Duty Finder content, all players should endeavor to approach being paired with (usually) total strangers with an attitude without high expectation that the entire group will conform to their preferred style of play. Instead, they should be prepared to meet somewhere in the middle where possible, in my opinion. It's a simple matter of courtesy. And given that nothing outside of Savage currently requires healer DPS, I think it shows a rather poor attitude to expect every random healer you run into to play dungeons and push DPS and then come on the forums and, essentially, toss insults at the ones that don't.

Most of the time, heavy healer DPS shaves a matter of minutes off of a typical dungeon run. Assuming the DPS players are competent with their AoE rotations, etc, the run will still proceed pretty quickly even if the healer twiddles their thumbs the whole time. Often, when paired with competent DPS (especially SMNs) I don't even have time to get let full DoTs tick down on SCH. WHM is better equipped for speedrunning because of the burst potential of Holy, but even then, with competent DPS, I often find time for just 2-3 casts of it, which ultimately doesn't greatly impact the run.

But from the vitriol that gets thrown around (again, whether people like it or not, some folks take offense to being called lazy in a game they play for leisure), one could be forgiven for thinking that healer DPS is the only thing that makes a difference between a 15 minute run and a 45 minute one.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Except in RL I get rewarded for giving everything.
What do I get for doing it in this game?

More exp? No
More Gil? No
More tomes? No

As long is this game does not reward you based on performance I won't do more than I need to get things done.

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Exactly. That's why we call your kind lazy, but then your kind claims they're not lazy. Either admit you are lazy or start putting in some effort

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Also everyone has the odd lazy run. Hell, I do from time to time, that doesn't mean I'm not being lazy when I do it.

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Right? I'll never say anything to a healer that only wants to heal, but BE HONEST, please.

If a healer says to me "Hey, I don't want to DPS, I'm feeling lazy today" or "Hey, I'm drunk" or "I'm not comfortable to DPS and Heal at the same time", I'll be totally cool with it. I'll not appreciate it, but I'll accept it and they may even get a comm from me for being honest.

But when someone tries to JUSTIFY it and worse: spreading misinformation, like saying the best healers are the ones that don't DPS? Excuse me no, just no. To me players that can't accept that they have room for improvement are the worst, they are the real arrogant players and the root of a 'toxic' community.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Exactly. That's why we call your kind lazy, but then your kind claims they're not lazy. Either admit you are lazy or start putting in some effort

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The question is

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As long is this game does not reward you based on performance I won't do more than I need to get things done.

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As far as both sides is concerned, does this mean the bare minimum to get it done? I mean honestly speaking, dps can get through any dungeon by spamming 1 over and over because none of them have dps checks or otherwise a soft enrage that puts pressure on the party to get it done fast. Hell, the bare minimum at this point is auto attacking. Is a SCH that literally afk-follows during a dungeon run doing the bare minimum or enough to get the job done? What about the healer that does nothing but spam cure I and overheals the hell out of you?

In the end, what really bothers me the most is hypocrisy or the double-standard of an expectation. If people expect to be able to get away with doing nothing but the bare minimum out of their role (which could be the healer, or the dps), why can't anyone else? If people don't want to do XYZ to perform their role well or beyond it, at best I'll just silently judge them, at worst call them out on it which at that point, you'd have to be under-performing at your role; a healer that pulls aggro from spamming, failure to keep the tank alive within reason, a dps that well...can't dps, or a tank that can't hold aggro).

And there are grey areas to everything and honestly nothing should be taken for face value without the context behind it.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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I enjoyed the dungeons when they were new content, but at this point no, and I have taken your advice (or rather, my own a few days back) and stopped running them altogether. If you can honestly tell me there's someone who still enjoys these dungeons after running them over 50 times now, well I'll be genuinely surprised. The things that delight me in this game are glamour, housing (now, anyway), the social aspect, and running content the first time or until I have my glamour set, but this isn't the point but I've noticed you tend to avoid that a lot. I don't just sit on my ass while watching Netflix on my 2nd monitor either, even though I hate the content I try my best, I fail to see how that's doing my party a disservice.

TWENTY-ONE PAGES.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.

If y'all dps'ed as hard as you reply to this, this thread wouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Eylirria

TWENTY-ONE PAGES.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.

If y'all dps'ed as hard as you reply to this, this thread wouldn't exist.

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The PPS (posts per second) is very high in this thread! Question is, what about the OverPost%?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The PPS (posts per second) is very high in this thread! Question is, what about the OverPost%?

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I couldnt tell you handy without a 3rd party tool, but, in my experience, OverPost% doesn't become a factor unless the posters are struggling for typing and have no CDs to bring their keyboards back up.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Depends. Do you prefer the journey or the destination? I prefer the journey so I'm fine with taking things slow.

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See my signature.... it's all about the journey, not the destination...

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Originally Posted by Colorful

If you can honestly tell me there's someone who still enjoys these dungeons after running them over 50 times now, well I'll be genuinely surprised.

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Been running expert dungeons once or twice every other day, still love going into them. I've also been running dungeons for leveling alts and poetics.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

If you can honestly tell me there's someone who still enjoys these dungeons after running them over 50 times now, well I'll be genuinely surprised.

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I still enjoy most of the dungeons in the game. Out of the HW dungeons, the only ones I have distaste for are the Vault and Neverreap. I still enjoy some runs with those two, even.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I still enjoy most of the dungeons in the game. Out of the HW dungeons, the only ones I have distaste for are the Vault and Neverreap. I still enjoy some runs with those two, even.

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Heh, The Vault is my favourite dungeon in the entire game. It's probably the only one that keeps you "active" dodging AoEs and the like, I have to wonder why level 60 dungeons are easier than the like of the The Aery, or The Vault.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Been running expert dungeons once or twice every other day, still love going into them. I've also been running dungeons for leveling alts and poetics.

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Fair enough then, I grow a strong distaste for anything if I do partake in it too much, even my favourite activities outside of the game, but that may differ for other people.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Heh, The Vault is my favourite dungeon in the entire game. It's probably the only one that keeps you "active" dodging AoEs and the like, I have to wonder why level 60 dungeons are easier than the like of the The Aery, or The Vault.

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I actually kind of love Vault—it was my favorite dungeon from 50-60. But I got burnt out on it early from running ot far more than the others, I suppose (each run pre-XP-buff seemed to give far less percentage of a level's worth of XP compared to the other dungeons, which probably had something to do with it). Aery is my second-favorite. I actually agree with you on the difficulty of the two—it was refreshing, and both of them make the level 60 dungeons feel a bit shallow.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Exactly. That's why we call your kind lazy, but then your kind claims they're not lazy. Either admit you are lazy or start putting in some effort

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I'll just quote myself

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

I do what I signed up for which is keeping the group alive at all costs I don't see where this is lazy.

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inb4lazy

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

I'll just quote myself


inb4lazy

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You're lazy. You signed up to play a FFXIV healer job which has the ability to do a lot of DPS, and you're not doing it.

This is so weird. I just think of the Healer out in the world looking at a hunt log, puzzled as to why they have to kill Monsters instead of stand there and stare at them to get credit. Oh wait. You had to use your DPS skills and abilities to do that, didn't you. Wait, what happened when they hit you and you became low on health? You had to heal yourself with your skills and abilities, didn't you. So all of a sudden just flat out refusing to do that is kind of perplexing to me, because that was how the game worked. Unless your conjurer stared at star marmots until they died, that is.

There have been cases where a Healer in the party has refused to use eye for an eye or virus, didn't even have the skill in their hotbar because they considered that off limits since they're a Healer. Didn't apply a single DoT. It's whatever, my personal opinion is of little value to them. The only thing I could forseeably complain about is the fact that it does indeed make content take longer ultimately. Do I think they're a good player when they actively choose to be a detriment? No. Healing is necessary. No way around that. Their damage is not, not even in the high end raid content due to the gear that is readily available now. It is welcome, it makes things more functional, it causes the duty to be easier, but not required. The scary thing about this philosophy, though, is that if potions were stronger you'd be worthless.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Unless your conjurer stared at star marmots until they died, that is.

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I laughed too hard imagining a marmot dying of boredom waiting on the healer to do something.

I find it strange that when I started the game I was a conj. I was told on multiple occasions that I needed to not dps and save my mana for healing (esp. at higher levels when I was whm). Now it's a complete 180. Personally I find a healer not dpsing a little weird, but not enough to worry about it. What gets my goat is a healer who refuses to help with mechanics while not dpsing and shouting orders to dps and tanks (see this way too much during 2nd stage bombs in Pharos Sirius (HM).

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Originally Posted by Cromi_Jobly

I laughed too hard imagining a marmot dying of boredom waiting on the healer to do something.

I find it strange that when I started the game I was a conj. I was told on multiple occasions that I needed to not dps and save my mana for healing (esp. at higher levels when I was whm). Now it's a complete 180. Personally I find a healer not dpsing a little weird, but not enough to worry about it. What gets my goat is a healer who refuses to help with mechanics while not dpsing and shouting orders to dps and tanks (see this way too much during 2nd stage bombs in Pharos Sirius (HM).

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I think this stems from people first coming into FFXIV with the traditional mentality borrowed from other MMOs, only to discover how invaluable to raid speed a healer's DPS can be.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Right? I'll never say anything to a healer that only wants to heal, but BE HONEST, please.

If I healer says to me "Hey, I don't want to DPS, I'm feeling lazy today" or "Hey, I'm drunk" or "I'm not comfortable to DPS and Heal at the same time", I'll be totally cool with it. I'll not appreciate it, but I'll accept it and they may even get a comm from me for being honest.

But when someone try to JUSTIFY it and worse: spreading misinformation, like saying the best healers are the ones that don't DPS? Excuse me no, just no. To me players that can't accept that they have room for improvement are the worst, they are the real arrogant players and the root of a 'toxic' community.

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This is so important. I would happily take an inexperienced player who readily acknowledges their faults and is eager to improve, compared to the proponent know-it-all simply because the former is someone who can eventually become a good or even great player. And even if they never reach OMG WORLD FIRST, they'll likely be fun to have around. The know-it-all, not so much.

I play paladin mostly so i like my healer to dps a little. Healers that dps will mostly get my commendation.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

See my signature.... it's all about the journey, not the destination...

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Yep same here. If an amazing journey requires my full participation then I will do everything in my power to get the full experience for myself and others.

People make the argument that skilled play only matters for speed runs but speed is just a by-product of efficiency/skill.

So is the journey best spent with people with whom you are impressed by and have fun with? Or would you rather bring some excess baggage to carry around.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I think this stems from people first coming into FFXIV with the traditional mentality borrowed from other MMOs, only to discover how invaluable to raid speed a healer's DPS can be.

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In a raid, yes. In a regular dungeon it's nice to have, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Yep same here. If an amazing journey requires my full participation then I will do everything in my power to get the full experience for myself and others.

People make the argument that skilled play only matters for speed runs but speed is just a by-product of efficiency/skill.

So is the journey best spent with people with whom you are impressed by and have fun with? Or would you rather bring some excess baggage to carry around.

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In my experience, happy people who are having fun will do better and learn more than those who are angry, upset, bored or misersble. Then again I also think that the game is more enjoyable when you are learning,whether it be learning a new class, learning new content or learning to fit dps in between heals without causing a problem with healing. Like you say, that is part of the journey, and a very enjoyable part.

One thing though that will destroy that moment for me is when I'm happy because I'm doing more than just healing, and then some random DPS who can't stop standing in stupid demands I do more damage... It would be way more effective to compliment me for doing the damage I am, instead of bitching that I'm not doing enough.

Meh They should re-vamp all Healer skills in 4.0 and take off all the damage dealing magics and make them full support and this war about healer dps should end. A SMN close to i210 should wreck that dungeon even if the other DPS is weak.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

I do what I signed up for which is keeping the group alive at all costs I don't see where this is lazy.

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It takes little to no effort to keep your party alive in most content. When it is an issue then it's understandable why you aren't DPSing because you are focused on the healing aspect. But if your standing around sitting on your thumbs of course people are going to be a bit perturbed.

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Originally Posted by Ronyx

Meh They should re-vamp all Healer skills in 4.0 and take off all the damage dealing magics and make them full support and this war about healer dps should end.

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SE would likely never consider something so drastic because it would mean:

• They have to rework ARC, of whom SCH gets all of the damage-dealing spells
• They probably have to rework EXP, FATEs, Leves and...basically anything that is in the open world and needs to be tagged to give EXP other other things (Like Hunts)
• They would have to (gasp) Make it more like XI, and they can't have that :rolleyes:
• They have to rework ALL the healer gear because without DPS, stats such as Accuracy, Crit, and Det become moot
• They would also have to do the same to Tanks as well, after all they are also whining about DPS vs tanking
• And then they would have to deal with the fallout resulting form so much time wasted on nerfing healers to this extent instead of say, relevant content. People are already whining about only 2 expert dungeons as it is.

In case you missed the smiley, the XI one was sarcasm