Tanks holding fights hostage in Roulettes

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Originally Posted by Karious

The amount of hate and vitriol against tanks will never not be funny to me.

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"how dare u be alive, stop playing the game"

I mean, really the only way around this is enrages in normal content. They're not going to take away tank sustain anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Agreed, which is why it's so disappointing to see people unwilling to put in the effort to play at level 100, and then cry when someone has enough of it, and just does it for them. This is a team game, put in the effort.

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Here I'll help you understand my viewpoint better.

If you're dealing with someone unwilling to learn or play the game properly, I have no objections to you objecting to that. Do whatever you think is the best course of action at that point.

But we might define what that is slightly differently and have different opinions about what a player should be expected to do.

I think players should be good enough not to die in most normal content in 14, especially by later levels, but it should never be anything more than most until they've seen it a bit.

If the already easy content is so easy that you can clear it strictly based on prior game knowledge, no matter what kind of player you are, or what situation you're in, on first try every time you queue in, then that's embarrassing game design. The newest content in an expansion should filter everyone on their first playthroughs a bit even on normal, especially considering what the skill level of an average player is, whether we like it what that level of skill is or not.

My argument is that for the good faith average skill level players, it's your job to babysit them to a reasonable extent no matter what role you play, but especially tank and healer, in order to bring that skill level up. They are also expected to do things like hit training dummies, queue in while not sleep deprived, etc that's what I mean by good faith.

I do NOT expect them to go look at a dungeon guide. They are entitled to a first time experience without watching a mechanics guide. Maybe if you help them and it still doesn't work out, then sure. Community resources are great. They make up for Square's failures to help teach the players the game to get them to the skill level you're expecting them to have. I just think your attitude is failing them too!

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Edit: Before you say something like the community should be willing to take the time to help others learn and improve. That is not the role of the community, community members can agree to do so, but not everyone has to agree to such standards. At face value all that happened was a pair of tanks just played out the fight. We going to really tell players it is not okay to try because x amount of people are dead or it would be quicker to reset it? Asking people to give just give up just does not sit well with others and some wish to see something to the end. Is this really wrong?

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It is because the needs of the entire team need to be considered and not just the desires of one or two people. If someone is new, they most likely need the practice to learn how to not die on the mechanics. Tanks that do this are denying them that ability. If there are a lot of wipes and the tank doesn't want to help instruct or be there supporting them figuring it out (which they're not required to do) then they can take a penalty and let the party get in a tank who will be what the party needs. If a tank wants to see something through to the end when they are alone, that is one thing. But in a team situation then the team as a whole needs to be considered.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It is because the needs of the entire team need to be considered and not just the desires of one or two people. If someone is new, they most likely need the practice to learn how to not die on the mechanics. Tanks that do this are denying them that ability. If there are a lot of wipes and the tank doesn't want to help instruct or be there supporting them figuring it out (which they're not required to do) then they can take a penalty and let the party get in a tank who will be what the party needs. If a tank wants to see something through to the end when they are alone, that is one thing. But in a team situation then the team as a whole needs to be considered.

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The only thing the group "needs" is to clear. The tanks are doing just that.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It is because the needs of the entire team need to be considered and not just the desires of one or two people. If someone is new, they most likely need the practice to learn how to not die on the mechanics. Tanks that do this are denying them that ability. If there are a lot of wipes and the tank doesn't want to help instruct or be there supporting them figuring it out (which they're not required to do) then they can take a penalty and let the party get in a tank who will be what the party needs. If a tank wants to see something through to the end when they are alone, that is one thing. But in a team situation then the team as a whole needs to be considered.

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Isn't technically the objective when you queue for something is to clear the fight? Unless you are joining a learning party or something. The tanks completed the objective.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I want to see a vote wipe option being implemented just to piss the crybaby egofueled tanks off.

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I mean that is one solution, personally I rather see progressively stricter enrage mechanics as the expansion goes on.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

They're not going to take away tank sustain anytime soon.

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Yeah because they're too busy nerfing dps sustain lmao.
https://i.imgur.com/ThBCZ4a.png

Clearing the fight as a cooperative team and clearing it at the expense of your team are not the same thing. Sure, you got the clear, and I don't have to like you, but I want you to know I will expressly dislike you and think you're a poor player if you look down on our teammates if they were trying their best in good faith.

Clearing is only one objective. The other objective is having fun. Within reason, like all things, it's good etiquette to consider if you're impacting the experience of your teammates.

Much like they should be trying to learn and clear the content instead of wiping, you should be considerate of their gameplay experience when they're trying to do so. Within. Reason.

So yeah, leave it up to Square what's actually against the rules, but I'm glad I play every role and I've never thought once when tanking to have such a poor attitude and outlook regarding my teammates. I can't imagine Tanking and not consulting my party and conceding to consensus even if it IS bad idea because I care about my party more than a clear. If we have to do the entire dungeon again, who cares? It's a video game. I have a life outside it and a house to clean with limited time for gaming too so I understand wanting to make the most of what you've got. But if you think your 15 minutes matters more than theirs, yeesh.

If you want consistency, go in with a premade party or something. You get instant queue times and you know everyone you're playing with. Make a group in PF to run roulettes with all day, take job applications for your party, verify that skill level so you don't have to babysit or something. Run with your FC members. Go play with NPCs and enjoy some intended solo gameplay. Queue in by yourself both sync and unsynced and have a little fun. Tank solo content when you don't have dead people in the ground IS very fun!

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Originally Posted by gllt

Clearing the fight as a cooperative team and clearing it at the expense of your team are not the same thing. Sure, you got the clear, and I don't have to like you, but I want you to know I will expressly dislike you and think you're a poor player if you look down on our teammates if they were trying their best in good faith.

Clearing is only one objective. The other objective is having fun. Within reason, like all things, it's good etiquette to consider if you're impacting the experience of your teammates.

Much like they should be trying to learn and clear the content instead of wiping, you should be considerate of their gameplay experience when they're trying to do so. Within. Reason.

So yeah, leave it up to Square what's actually against the rules, but I'm glad I play every role and I've never thought once when tanking to have such a poor attitude and outlook regarding my teammates. I can't imagine Tanking and not consulting my party and conceding to consensus even if it IS bad idea because I care about my party more than a clear. If we have to do the entire dungeon again, who cares? It's a video game. I have a life outside it and a house to clean with limited time for gaming too so I understand wanting to make the most of what you've got. But if you think your 15 minutes matters more than theirs, yeesh.

If you want consistency, go in with a premade party or something. You get instant queue times and you know everyone you're playing with. Make a group in PF to run roulettes with all day, take job applications for your party, verify that skill level so you don't have to babysit or something. Run with your FC members. Go play with NPCs and enjoy some intended solo gameplay. Queue in by yourself both sync and unsynced and have a little fun. Tank solo content when you don't have dead people in the ground IS very fun!

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Not saying I disagree, but at the core the measurable or objective goal is to clear the content. Generally speaking that is the end goal the one goal everyone that goes into content can expect as a baseline. Everything else you stated can vary from person-to-person. While you cannot imagine why someone would want to try and see how far they can go while their party is dead, clearly some people do like doing that. Just as some people would rather the tank just reset the fight. Yes, we share a community but people only need to considerate of others gameplay experience within the scope of the content and the rules. Clearly no rule was broken, so having said expectation is fair, but it is not a guaranteed. As you suggest people who wish to solo content, or do whatever should do it on their own time, the same could be said for those that do not wish to gamble on a tank wasting 20 min of their time. End of the day the whole join a premade or FC can also be said to those that are annoyed when other players don't take their experience or time into account.

If it's a low percent I'll keep going (like 15% or less), but other than that I will let mechanics cycle and then kill myself so people who may not quite understand how they work can learn a bit.