Some surprising data in regards to SMN dps vs BLM dps

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Originally Posted by Thyrllan

ffxivapp shouldn't be taken seriously. there are some major issues with it. Combat log doesn't track DoTs, it has to simulate dot damage.

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^this. This most people who go "yeah parsers!" seem to forget.

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Originally Posted by Gaakt

^this. This most people who go "yeah parsers!" seem to forget.

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Again, it is accurate when you are solo testing your dps, no one around to add or contribute damage.

I will say I have reservations about FFXIV-App's ability to correctly parse SMN DPS. I did AK recently with a SMN FC-mate who had 0 Darklight and the WP weapon. I have all the Darklight except boots/cowl and a Garuda weapon. I was parsing at like -20 DPS as compared to her, despite the in-game aggro meters correctly(?) showing me as constantly surpassing her on enmity.

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Originally Posted by savant07

Again, it is accurate when you are solo testing your dps, no one around to add or contribute damage.

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No, it is not. It's easy to test. Do Bio II. Then do Bio and Fester at the same time. Parser records the Bio tick for as much as Fester hit. So Fester hits for 400, you get 400 dot ticks on your Bio. It's inaccurate and the reason why SMN parser is really unreliable.

Please do not use FFXIV-app for anything DoT related.
If you want a real parse, take LogRep.

This is a near perfect kill on turn 2 (with magical resist buff) : http://snag.gy/gVfJU.jpg (only look at Total Damage. DPS value is incorrect)
BLM is ahead by 4k dmg despise loosing dps due to being forced to move with Allagan Rot

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Please do not use FFXIV-app for anything DoT related.
If you want a real parse, take LogRep.

This is a near perfect kill on turn 2 (with magical resist buff) : http://snag.gy/gVfJU.jpg
BLM is ahead by 4k dmg despise loosing dps due to being forced to move with Allagan Rot

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Where is egi damage here?

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Originally Posted by Karnage720

Where is egi damage here?

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Under the PLDs, you need to add it to the SMN total damage.
Edit : you probably meant ADS damage. I was only looking at total on all mini-boss (the orange line) since you must do everything in 1 go.

parser is broken on dots. your ilvl 60 acn isn't outdpsing an ilvl 90 blm, don't be daft.

Glad I went with SMN. None of my friends who went BLM enjoy it very much.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

I think the BLM would see a lot of fixing if:

A) Fire Starter triggered at the end of a cast instead of when the projectile lands.

B) Neither Fire Starter or Thundercloud triggered the GCD.

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(A) would make me a very happy camper and makes much more sense.

brb wasting 2.5 sec to cast Fire I instead of proc'd Fire III for no reason at all.

I could do without (B), however.


I'm also always top DPS in all the raids I've been with my geared mates, including coil runs up to turn 4 (vs DRG, MNK, BRD).

I've been with a couple of SMN and they do indeed deal more damage the longer the fight goes on according to the 'simulated' DOT damage on parser.

In the end of the day though, there's nothing more beautiful than seeing 2000+ Critical Damage floating on top of a mob.

Not to mention the ability to piss off tanks and healers by pulling aggros on purpose whenever the f I want.

BLM Master Race 4 lyfe.

delete ____

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Originally Posted by Umisame

I saw a rotation for blm in this forum, blizzard III x3 -> transpose -> fire III -> flare -> transpose (repeat). You can add thunder after fireIII. With this rotation you can do great dmg. Anyways i started to play blm in 2.0 two days ago.

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>.> /facepalm

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Originally Posted by HitaruHotaru

>.> /facepalm

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Yep. Frightening.

Well, that transpose between blizzard3 and fire3 is retarded, but aside from that, if theres no BRDs in the group that rotation is -ok- for AOEing. If you dont need to fit that flare into raging strikes though, better off with 3 casts of fire2 before flare, and you only need two blizzard2's after transpose.

If the single target DoT class didn't do more damage to single targets than the class with front-loaded damage and amazing AOE I'd be pretty worried :P

This thread just sounds like a bunch of people making excuses. Yeah ff14 app isn't perfect, but if you actually take the time to test it yourself, you'll find its fairly reliable. It's already been updated enough to make it somewhat reliable. It still doesn't track Shadowflare, which any good summoner knows is a big chunk of dmg. Also, it doesn't read the logs persay like a traditional parser, its actually attaching itself so that's the reason it can track the dots at all.

Anyways, no reason BLM should be doing more DPS than a SMN anyways. Why would anyone think that a class with amazing single and aoe dps, tons of burst, all frontloaded with an infinite supply of mana should do better single target DPS than a DoT class is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Calibix

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Well said. Summoner and Blackmage are carbon copies of WoW's Warlock and Mage. They went as far as copying abilities straight from wow; Blink - AM - Firestarter, life tap, haunt-fester, etc...

Both are DPS classes and both should be doing equal dps. That said, summoners do way more if played well.

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Originally Posted by Furio

Well said. Summoner and Blackmage are carbon copies of WoW's Warlock and Mage. They went as far as copying abilities straight from wow; Blink - AM - Firestarter, life tap, haunt-fester, etc...

Both are DPS classes and both should be doing equal dps. That said, summoners do way more if played well.

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In my opinion they pick one of the most boring specs to craft summoner from. Even reading the warlock section of the WoW forums people say demonology is the most fun spec.

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Originally Posted by Furio

Well said. Summoner and Blackmage are carbon copies of WoW's Warlock and Mage. They went as far as copying abilities straight from wow; Blink - AM - Firestarter, life tap, haunt-fester, etc...

Both are DPS classes and both should be doing equal dps. That said, summoners do way more if played well.

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I agree that SMNs are very similar to WoW warlock, but you made terrible examples for your argument, how is fester similar to haunt? SMNs don't have a lifetap ability...

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Originally Posted by glim

I agree that SMNs are very similar to WoW warlock, but you made terrible examples for your argument, how is fester similar to haunt? SMNs don't have a lifetap ability...

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Ehm, haunt increases the damage done by your dots, DS deals more damage the more dots are active. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.

Aetherflow is a means to restore mana, much like lifetap (considering the hp cost is negligeble). Virus, is like curse of weakness. Aether Manipulation a weak version of blink. Bane spreads dots much like SS: seed of corruption. Blizzard is basically the same ability as frost nova, but with a cast time.

Firestarter proc, is identical to pyroblast proc. Fire III is similar to LB.

You see, it's ridiculous how similar (similar, meh, you could say almost identical) these classes are...

If the class with high ramp up DPS and crap target switching capacity due to lack of burst cannot do more long term sustained damage than the class with frontloaded damage and frontloaded aoe, there is a problem.

The BLM is suffering from quality of life changes. But if the black mage can do the same damage as summoner, but all in burst and without 7.5 seconds of setup to do full DPS per target switch, then we have a problem. Nobody will bring summoners if they don't have a perk over the burst classes. Steady, sustained damage classes should always outDPS burst damage classes. Not that much, but enough to justify bringing them.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

If the class with high ramp up DPS and crap target switching capacity due to lack of burst cannot do more long term sustained damage than the class with frontloaded damage and frontloaded aoe, there is a problem.

The BLM is suffering from quality of life changes. But if the black mage can do the same damage as summoner, but all in burst and without 7.5 seconds of setup to do full DPS per target switch, then we have a problem. Nobody will bring summoners if they don't have a perk over the burst classes. Steady, sustained damage classes should always outDPS burst damage classes. Not that much, but enough to justify bringing them.

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Fully agree. BUT, summoner's aoe is not that bad at all, if it's able to use bane.

Anyway, summ is fine as it is. BMage should be looked at though. Its mechanics are poorly designed and cause quite a bit of problems during fights. Problems that feel more like bugs, rather than anything else.

the only similar thing about aetherflow and lifetap is that it gives mana, well lots of MMOs have spells that gives back mana, it doesn't mean that it's "ridiculously similar to lifetap", lifetap is spammable, aetheroflow is not, lifetap gives mana in exchange of hp, aethrflow doesn't do that, aethrflow gives 3 charges of aetherflow, lifetap doesn't.

//DS deals more damage the more dots are active. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.//

haunt is from WoW, DS = (I'm assuming demon soul?) is from WoW as well. you compared haunt to fester, and both of this spells(haunt and fester) are way way different.

My SCH DoTs tick for about 530 with Shadow Flare + Cleric Stance. That's 176 DPS. Not surprised that you see those numbers on a SMN who actually keeps their dots up.

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Originally Posted by Calibix

This thread just sounds like a bunch of people making excuses. Yeah ff14 app isn't perfect, but if you actually take the time to test it yourself, you'll find its fairly reliable. It's already been updated enough to make it somewhat reliable. It still doesn't track Shadowflare, which any good summoner knows is a big chunk of dmg. Also, it doesn't read the logs persay like a traditional parser, its actually attaching itself so that's the reason it can track the dots at all...

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FFXIV App being fairly reliable in judging Summoner DPS is flat out wrong. I gave a reason earlier why this is so, but you people harping on about the damn parser being "oh so reliable!" are plugging your ears and saying, "LALALALA I can't hear you!". In case everyone missed it, I'll repost why the FFXIV App Parser is unreliable.

Using Bio + Fester while Bio II is up will cause BIO DoTs being tracked as hitting as HARD as Fester. This is the reason why you see ilvl 60 Summoner out parsing people in ilvl 90. We've tested this quite extensively and can reliably recreate the bug in the FFXIV App Parser. Again, when the parser tracks Bio ticks for hitting 400+ damage per tick, it vastly skews the information on the parser itself. You simply cannot use the FFXIV App parser as an accurate measuring stick as to why Summoner DPS is as high as it is in it's current state.

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Originally Posted by savant07

I think if you are testing solo against dummy without anyone else attacking the dummy, it is pretty accurate.

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No it isn't. It's not even close.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Please do not use FFXIV-app for anything DoT related.
If you want a real parse, take LogRep.

This is a near perfect kill on turn 2 (with magical resist buff) : http://snag.gy/gVfJU.jpg (only look at Total Damage. DPS value is incorrect)
BLM is ahead by 4k dmg despise loosing dps due to being forced to move with Allagan Rot

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No even that program is seriously off on dot damage. Neither dps parser is remotely close to accurately simulating dot damage.

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Originally Posted by Youmu

Parsers are not 100% accurate, but against single mobs in a straight DPS test, with no party interference, they do work. The issue with their innaccuracy comes from its use within a party with 2 or more of the same class

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Inaccurate even solo.

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Originally Posted by Aronos

I see people saying this repeatedly, but what evidence do you have? Are parsers 100% correct? Perhaps not. But to simply say that it's impossible for SMN to out dps BLM because BLM sometimes crits huge and it's hard to believe they're second to SMN dps is hard to believe. I'm disappointed by this fact but facts are facts. If parsers are inaccurate for SMN dps, who's to say it's not inaccurate for BLM? When dots tick for 290+ damage as I watch them in game, it's not hard to believe that spamming ruin, and my pet dps would make it far superior to BLM even with a weapon 30 ilvls lower.

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So you see dot ticks for 290 that's fine. Now divide that by 3 seconds and that's 97dps. Now add your pet with 55dps. We're at 145dps. Now add your non dots. This isn't anywhere near 321dps.

The ffxivapp parser's problem is mainly with Bio II. Every time you hit Fester it increases Bio II's damage. Testing on a dummy atm and my Bio II damage is at 1,056%. I'm hitting for 39 damage a tick and the parser says i'm hitting for 412 damage a tick. This happens every time you hit Fester after front loading all your dots for max fester damage. You then follow up with a Bio II and watch for the inflated BIO II dot ticks according to the parser. This lasts the 30 second duration of the dot time. Given that we can hit Fester 3 times every 60 seconds this pretty much ensures your Bio II dot tick damage according to the parser will be highly inflated.

Now i'm only level 37 atm. So it may not be quite as bad at 50. Until i get to 50 and verify i can't say for sure if it behaves exactly the same at 50. But as it's just basic math i'd say they programed that dot incorrectly and that it will perform close to the same at 50. I'd suggest someone else test this out who is 50 to verify my results.

If the above does perform the same or even half as badly this is still a huge amount that this parser is off by.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

FFXIV App being fairly reliable in judging Summoner DPS is flat out wrong. I gave a reason earlier why this is so, but you people harping on about the damn parser being "oh so reliable!" are plugging your ears and saying, "LALALALA I can't hear you!". In case everyone missed it, I'll repost why the FFXIV App Parser is unreliable.

Using Bio + Fester while Bio II is up will cause BIO DoTs being tracked as hitting as HARD as Fester. This is the reason why you see ilvl 60 Summoner out parsing people in ilvl 90. We've tested this quite extensively and can reliably recreate the bug in the FFXIV App Parser. Again, when the parser tracks Bio ticks for hitting 400+ damage per tick, it vastly skews the information on the parser itself. You simply cannot use the FFXIV App parser as an accurate measuring stick as to why Summoner DPS is as high as it is in it's current state.

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Good confirmation there dude. Much appreciated.

I can confirm that this is indeed the same thing that happens at 50.

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Originally Posted by Furio

Fully agree. BUT, summoner's aoe is not that bad at all, if it's able to use bane.

Anyway, summ is fine as it is. BMage should be looked at though. Its mechanics are poorly designed and cause quite a bit of problems during fights. Problems that feel more like bugs, rather than anything else.

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Bane is only good in encounters where the adds spawn at the same place and where they have larger healthpools. It's still bad if the adds die in a couple of AoE bursts from melee/bards/BLM.

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Originally Posted by glim

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Why do you quote "ridiculously similar to lifetap" when I never said that? Why are you being butthurt about 1 single ability when the whole freaking class is a carbon copy and anyone denying that is either ignorant, or blatantly 'white knight-ing'.

I even left out Energy Drain and Aetherflow. Hey, what a coincidence! The warlock archetype that is FFXIV's Summoner, also has a spell that works like WoW's Drain Life: Energy Drain! How about Aetherflow? 3 stacks usable for special abilities? Hmmm, feels a bit too similar to soul shards doesn't it? 3 stacks usable for special abilities as well.

DS = Drain soul. Drain soul does X damage per dot on your target. If you really can't see it you don't want to see. And next time you feel like replying, why don't you use all examples given rather than picking one, ripping it out of context and placing it between quotes suggesting I said something I didn't. Nitwit.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Bane is only good in encounters where the adds spawn at the same place and where they have larger healthpools. It's still bad if the adds die in a couple of AoE bursts from melee/bards/BLM.

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Very true. If you have 2 blms using flare on garuda's plumes, bane isn't going to be helping much. If you don't it actually works amazingly well.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

Using Bio + Fester while Bio II is up will cause BIO DoTs being tracked as hitting as HARD as Fester.

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I used the in-battle log to keep track of total damage done on an ifrit hard fight. I calculated the DPS and it was the exact same damage and DPS (give or take a hundreth) ffxiv-app showed. Seems pretty accurate to me. Maybe you were using an out-dated version?

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Originally Posted by Furio

I used the in-battle log to keep track of total damage done on an ifrit hard fight. I calculated the DPS and it was the exact same damage and DPS (give or take a hundreth) ffxiv-app showed. Seems pretty accurate to me. Maybe you were using an out-dated version?

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Congratulations, you used incomplete information to calculate incorrect information. It's well known that dots don't show up in the log. If they did, there'd be no inaccuracy in the parser.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Congratulations, you used incomplete information to calculate incorrect information. It's well known that dots don't show up in the log. If they did, there'd be no inaccuracy in the parser.

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Forgot to mention that was on my BLM. I'll have a look on my summ though. I never noticed dots weren't being tracked since the only one I use is thunder.

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Originally Posted by Umisame

I saw a rotation for blm in this forum, blizzard III x3 -> transpose -> fire III -> flare -> transpose (repeat). You can add thunder after fireIII. With this rotation you can do great dmg. Anyways i started to play blm in 2.0 two days ago.

What is good about blm vs smn is burst dmg, while i like to out dps ppl as smn i think parser is giving a bit of dmg extra for smns(or dots).

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.....what.....what is this? o_O

sadly most of darklight gear lack crit chance stat, blm damage excels with high crit rate. the darklight accessories offer 0 crit rating kinda sad youll need expensive crafted accessories to compensate. you can get about 58-60 (not sure on caps) crit chance from acessories. which is about 4%~ and armor darklight cowl offer 0 compared to vanya chest and helmet can get upto 43 crit hit another 3%~ crit rate there lost. sadly nothing you can do about relic as it doesnt have crit.

so about 7-8% crit chance lost from having DL on over crafted gear.

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Originally Posted by Furio

I used the in-battle log to keep track of total damage done on an ifrit hard fight. I calculated the DPS and it was the exact same damage and DPS (give or take a hundreth) ffxiv-app showed. Seems pretty accurate to me. Maybe you were using an out-dated version?

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You know that you cannot see your own DoTs damage ? Every DoTs tick include everyone from your group.

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Originally Posted by Umisame

I saw a rotation for blm in this forum, blizzard III x3 -> transpose -> fire III -> flare -> transpose (repeat). You can add thunder after fireIII. With this rotation you can do great dmg. Anyways i started to play blm in 2.0 two days ago.

What is good about blm vs smn is burst dmg, while i like to out dps ppl as smn i think parser is giving a bit of dmg extra for smns(or dots).

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If you are using Flare in single target rotation, I dare say you are doing it wrong. If you even wanted to *suggest* using flare you most certainly wouldn't burn it at the top of your mana pool because that is just retarded. If you have Umbral Fire 3 on yourself, Flare does just as much damage at 300 mana as it does at 3000 mana, but consumes whatever mana you give it.

My Flare is currently hitting each target for around 1k non crit... making it only slightly higher than Fire 3 non-crit. The problem with working this in on single target even if you use it at the bottom of your mana pool, is that you HAVE to transpose on an empty mana pool, which requires you wait for 1 tick of regen before you can cast anything. This knocks you out on average 1 GCD of standing there doing nothing. Then you have a SLOW cast Blizzard 3, then thunder 2/3 (depending on which side of the fence you are on for that argument), then finally back to fast cast Fire 3. So you are sacrificing a solid 2 GCDs (maybe even 3 if you count in the extra cast time on Flare), to gain what? 500 more damage on that one ability (as compared to a single Fire hit)? Single target this is a total waste of an ability, and will KILL your DPS.

Now for AOE, hitting 5 mobs all for 1k a piece... that is pretty sexy. And for a low health massive add spawn like you get on something like Garuda or CM, and that is a recipe to make great use of this ability.

Perhaps a better way, maybe, to gauge dps is not with the parser, but with the dummies themselves.
Lvl 50 dummies has a set amount of hp, and when it is depleted, the dummy despawns for a moment, then respawns with full hp and all effects/dots/debuffs are carried over.
So if we want to weed out some inaccuracies of the parser, why not see how long it takes a given dps class to "kill" a lvl 50 dummy... idk, 10, 20 times? Maybe get a friend to stand there and count the kills for you.
In doing so, and using the parser and a non-dot low dps class... say PLD, to determine the HP of the dummy, we can get a sense of how long it takes each dps to deal X damage, based on the game's calculations.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Perhaps a better way, maybe, to gauge dps is not with the parser, but with the dummies themselves.
Lvl 50 dummies has a set amount of hp, and when it is depleted, the dummy despawns for a moment, then respawns with full hp and all effects/dots/debuffs are carried over.
So if we want to weed out some inaccuracies of the parser, why not see how long it takes a given dps class to "kill" a lvl 50 dummy... idk, 10, 20 times? Maybe get a friend to stand there and count the kills for you.
In doing so, and using the parser and a non-dot low dps class... say PLD, to determine the HP of the dummy, we can get a sense of how long it takes each dps to deal X damage, based on the game's calculations.

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Honestly, not a bad idea assuming each time the dummy refreshes the health pool is consistently the same. I don't see why it wouldn't be though.

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Originally Posted by Furio

I used the in-battle log to keep track of total damage done on an ifrit hard fight. I calculated the DPS and it was the exact same damage and DPS (give or take a hundreth) ffxiv-app showed. Seems pretty accurate to me. Maybe you were using an out-dated version?

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Please tell me your ways of tracking DoT damage that doesn't show up in the battle log during the Ifrit hard fight AND extrapolating how much of the DoT tick is yours and what is your other party members. Also, I was not using the outdated version, I had tested it yesterday when I made the post.

Again, FFXIV App Parser should never be used to track SMN dps numbers because it's skewed and provably wrong.

I love how all the MNK/BLM's are tying themselves in knots if they won't have SMN as a whipping boy anymore. Again, my SCH ticks for 150dps and my Ruin hits for 200 non-crit. That's already over 200dps, and that's not counting constant pet damage with Rouse and Spur plus Fester. SMN dps at 350 seems perfectly reasonable if your rotation is sound.