Do you think bard desired a nerfing soon.

Nerfing is the new "Stimulus Package" for people who like to complain and bring others down to their level.

"I'm not the best! Pooo T_T". "Make everyone else worse so I feel better mom!"

All we need now is for the community rep to pop in and post "Devs think Bards are working as intended." They have already said F.A.T.E grinding, Dark Devices, and Warriors are working as intended. I would assume Bard is as well.

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Originally Posted by Bladedragon

Haven't seen the option were they force you to change class weird maybe im missing something :P

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Because you have not done end game yet ?

So I've been reading a lot of forums about this stuff and I am just wondering. What about instead of changing the classes/jobs why not change the content a bit? Cause it seems that as far as end game the reason melee DD is not desirable other than for LB is because they can't outshine a bard in damage because of their constant moving and avoiding. Perhaps the content is putting too much pressure on those classes making it difficult for them to perform their job? There have been times, I believe there was 1 in FFXI, where they made the content too ridiculous to actually do...

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Originally Posted by glen7187

So I've been reading a lot of forums about this stuff and I am just wondering. What about instead of changing the classes/jobs why not change the content a bit? Cause it seems that as far as end game the reason melee DD is not desirable other than for LB is because they can't outshine a bard in damage because of their constant moving and avoiding. Perhaps the content is putting too much pressure on those classes making it difficult for them to perform their job? There have been times, I believe there was 1 in FFXI, where they made the content too ridiculous to actually do...

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Happy to see at least one person understands that bard and all ranged dps will always win based on how fights are designed. Sorry melee but you can't have the highest weapon damage,highest dps def, really high weapon skill potency and not expect some kind of drawback.

and here i stopped playing bard since it had become so bad xP

i am pretty sure that thats the risk for being melee, usualy the closer you are to the giant sword weilding/overgrown monster the more RISK thats involved. should we change the game so that monks and melee dps can just stand there the whole fight?

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Originally Posted by Loopah

Of all the terrible ideas on this forum so far, yours is number 1! Completely split Archers from Bards in next path, REALLY? You think SE will bow to your pre-conceived ideas of how a Bard should be, think again.

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I fail to understand why, according to you, this would be "the #1 terrible idea." Other than 3 songs Bards are strictly brought in for DPS. In the Primal kills I've taken part in, never once has anyone called out for either the TP or MP song, and Foe Requiem *might* be used if you stack BLMs. So you lose out on 3 underused abilities, get rid of the name Bard, and acquire newer abilities fit for a pure Archery/Ranged DPS class. Leave the support niche, the "real" Bard class, role to the people that would actually play them. Not everyone just wants to DPS.

And to the others, surprisingly all BRDs, who don't want a nerf OR buff other classes; what do you think will happen in the near future if nothing changes? Why be any another DPS class if BRD trumps all of them? Maybe a melee or caster if their LB is required, but otherwise be shunned.

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Originally Posted by Jotunhammer

When is the damage not mobile? or do you prefer BRD to stand still 4-5 seconds after he has shot his bow?
Im curious to what your determination of non-mobile damage that BRD have.

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...Why would they need to stand still after firing? I don't think you quite grasped what I meant. Mobile meaning while bards are on the move. If they are stationary, they do their normal damage, but while moving, suffer a penalty to their damage. This is in line with essentially every class now. Melee while moving can't always connect due to lag or not meeting positional requirements, severely dropping their DPS. Casters cannot cast their spells and therefore suffer a drop in DPS. It only makes sense that Bards be subject to the same penalties as every single other class in the game, don't you think?

You're getting a nerf one way or another. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

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Originally Posted by fauxpas

i am pretty sure that thats the risk for being melee, usualy the closer you are to the giant sword weilding/overgrown monster the more RISK thats involved. should we change the game so that monks and melee dps can just stand there the whole fight?

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Are people stupid? Do you not understand how risk vs reward works? If you have higher risk, you should have higher reward, otherwise everyone will pick the class with lower risk but equal reward. So if melee are subject to higher risk, which they are, they should be compensated equally in some way, which they currently are not. The most obvious is dealing more damage as they place a greater burden on the party due to their risk and are undesirable as they have equal reward as those with less risk.

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Originally Posted by Darian

Happy to see at least one person understands that bard and all ranged dps will always win based on how fights are designed. Sorry melee but you can't have the highest weapon damage,highest dps def, really high weapon skill potency and not expect some kind of drawback.

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Like our defense actually comes in handy. Any big ability will hit you for quite a lot anyways, some potentially one shotting you. Even if that defensive boost was significant, if I was making a party, I'd rather pick the class that deals more DPS and stays out of harm's way over the one that deals less but has higher defense but needs to be healed constantly. The thing you don't grasp is that the highest weapon skill damage and higher WS potency don't really equate to much in the end if you're getting gimped by mechanics while ranged are just sitting there safely pew pewing. Sure on a tank and spank we may win out, but how often does that happen past the first few dungeons?

[QUOTE=MalcolmReynolds;1338736 If they are stationary, they do their normal damage, but while moving, suffer a penalty to their damage. This is in line with essentially every class now. Melee while moving can't always connect due to lag or not meeting positional requirements, severely dropping their DPS. Casters cannot cast their spells and therefore suffer a drop in DPS. It only makes sense that Bards be subject to the same penalties as every single other class in the game, don't you think?

You're getting a nerf one way or another. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.[/QUOTE]

so lets make the bard not a bard? take away his bow and give him a staff and call him a caster? you should be thankfull that there is a class thats doing damage while repositioning.
and this nerf you speak of? i have heard nothing official, if so please enlighten us all with your inside knowlege.

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Originally Posted by fauxpas

so lets make the bard not a bard? take away his bow and give him a staff and call him a caster? you should be thankfull that there is a class thats doing damage while repositioning.
and this nerf you speak of? i have heard nothing official, if so please enlighten us all with your inside knowlege.

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When did I ever say take away his bow? Quit making shit up and start making actual arguments that aren't based on stupid premises. You don't need a cast time. Nobody said that. But if you're on the move, you shouldn't be doing 100% of your damage while EVERY other class suffers from the same mechanics. Besides, aside from your three songs, you're really just a beefed up archer.

It's quite obvious this is your first MMO (welcome) if you don't think a nerf is coming. Classes that are too powerful get nerfed, classes that are bottom tier get buffs. It's the cycle of an MMO that occurs as an attempt to balance the game. ARR is no exception to this, not if it expects to have a long life.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

It's quite obvious this is your first MMO (welcome) if you don't think a nerf is coming. Classes that are too powerful get nerfed, classes that are bottom tier get buffs. It's the cycle of an MMO that occurs as an attempt to balance the game. ARR is no exception to this, not if it expects to have a long life.

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I feel like if you think bard damage is too high you've never looked at a parser.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

When did I ever say take away his bow? Quit making shit up and start making actual arguments that aren't based on stupid premises. You don't need a cast time. Nobody said that. But if you're on the move, you shouldn't be doing 100% of your damage while EVERY other class suffers from the same mechanics. Besides, aside from your three songs, you're really just a beefed up archer.

It's quite obvious this is your first MMO (welcome) if you don't think a nerf is coming. Classes that are too powerful get nerfed, classes that are bottom tier get buffs. It's the cycle of an MMO that occurs as an attempt to balance the game. ARR is no exception to this, not if it expects to have a long life.

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not new to the mmo world, been around the block buddy.. why take away the sole reason why alot of people rolled bard. thats the 1 thing they have that makes them diffrent. dont put every class into a defined sector. jeliousy is not a good color on you man

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Originally Posted by Gunba

I feel like if you think bard damage is too high you've never looked at a parser.

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It's not strictly the damage. It's also the utility stacked with it. Why take someone that deals equal damage if that's all they do when you can take BRD and have the same damage and make your healer's job easier as they aren't in the line of fire as often? Plus the occasional song when needed. That's why you see parties taking several bards at once over melee DPS.

Funny how most of the posts against any sort of change seem to be coming from BRDs themselves.

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Originally Posted by fauxpas

not new to the mmo world, been around the block buddy.. why take away the sole reason why alot of people rolled bard. thats the 1 thing they have that makes them diffrent. dont put every class into a defined sector. jeliousy is not a good color on you man

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Wrong on that one, "buddy." BRD was designed to be support. You are essentially put into the "defined sector" you seem to speak of by being pretty much all DPS at the moment, aside from the occasional fight when the casters need some MP. But that's more of an oversight on SE's part as there isn't really a "support" grouping as far as the duty finder is concerned but the fact remains, you are just DPS now. A DPS with really nice perks that overshadow most of the positives any other DPS classes have.

Everyone makes good points. I just hate to see things get "nerfed" especially when the game has only been out for a month. Yes there was beta and such but the full player base hasn't started until this month. Let's just see if players are not able to find strategies to adjust. With how much simpler it is to alter games nowadays, people are getting into this mode where when they are hit with a challenge they are not able to overcome they complain to dev to make it easier for them.

Not saying bard is perfect as it is now as everyones arguments are good ones. Just saying give it some time and see if it can't be balanced out with maybe different content or better strategies developed.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

It's not strictly the damage. It's also the utility stacked with it. Why take someone that deals equal damage if that's all they do when you can take BRD and have the same damage and make your healer's job easier as they aren't in the line of fire as often? Plus the occasional song when needed. That's why you see parties taking several bards at once over melee DPS.

Funny how most of the posts against any sort of change seem to be coming from BRDs themselves.

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funny how all complaints about bards are from monks and dragoons? why why wouldent a bard stick up for his class when some asshat makes stupid claims about something that they realyl dont know about

in this game, the more utility and safeness you have, the more dps you have!

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Originally Posted by fauxpas

funny how all complaints about bards are from monks and dragoons? why why wouldent a bard stick up for his class when some asshat makes stupid claims about something that they realyl dont know about

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Right, because they're the ones most affected by how unbalanced your class is at the moment. Why wouldn't they say something when the majority of DPS slots are filled with bards?

By the way, personal insults don't make your argument any stronger. They just make you look like a child.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

It's not strictly the damage. It's also the utility stacked with it. Why take someone that deals equal damage if that's all they do when you can take BRD and have the same damage and make your healer's job easier as they aren't in the line of fire as often? Plus the occasional song when needed. That's why you see parties taking several bards at once over melee DPS.

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That's exactly what I have been trying to say.

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Originally Posted by glen7187

Yes there was beta and such but the full player base hasn't started until this month. Let's just see if players are not able to find strategies to adjust. With how much simpler it is to alter games nowadays, people are getting into this mode where when they are hit with a [...]

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FYI, Bard was changed at the last moment. Bard in beta phase 4 (just before going live) was still using Conjurer has second class. They removed it for Pugilist.
SE clearly did not anticipate the impact.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

That's exactly what I have been trying to say.


FYI, Bard was changed at the last moment. Bard in beta phase 4 (just before going live) was still using Conjurer has second class. They removed it for Pugilist.
SE clearly did not anticipate the impact.

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Does the switch to Pugilist make a big difference for damage? It looks like the only helpful Pugilist skill for damage would be Internal Release right?

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Originally Posted by glen7187

Does the switch to Pugilist make a big difference for damage? It looks like the only helpful Pugilist skill for damage would be Internal Release right?

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Due to how DoTs works (taking a snapshot of buffs at the moment they are casted) and Bard ability to reset non-GCD skill Bloodletter from Crits made by DoTs, this play a huge role in my opinion.
I can cast my DoTs with 45% crit (with my current gear) with 2 DoTs ticking, I will reset Bloodletter every 2 tick. Without this buff, I would only have 25% crit and would reset only every 4 tick.
From just 1 buff with a 60 sec CD, I get huge a burst. This get exponentially better as we boost this effects with other buffs making insane damage during buff stacking.

Granted I have not tested the real impact and this is just theory.

If that is the case, maybe (just a suggestion) switching Pugilist back out for Conjurer would be a better "nerf". Since the job originally had Conjurer, its technically just bringing the class to its original idea, and this would lower the bards damage potential and give them more support skills shifting them more towards the support role... Although off the top of my head I'm not sure if any of Conjurer's cross class skills would really benefit a bard...

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Because you have not done end game yet ?

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I think you are missing the point it is still not an obligation to change class base on what ppl want more. Im pretty sure that after ppl get down the mechanics on the end content they will change the hole idea that they need an specific group for the content just like Ifrit when ppl said that u needed a caster to make it work they just like the easy way to do things nothing new. But you changing class is entirely up to you so dont make it look like it is mandatory to do end content stuff just get a group of ppl that would not mind trying and working together with you.

To the people that say "buff other DPS, don't nerf Bards!" doesn't understand game design or balance.

I'll make this short and sweet.


Nerf 1 class or buff 2-4 classes?
Everyone loves buffs right? That is correct however most people can't see the long term effects those buffs have on games. Power creep is a bad thing and if you can avoid doing it you really should try. The number of changes needed to nerf 1 class vs buffing 2-4 is a huge difference. Each change has a ripple effect on the class as well as the world. Also each change has a chance to cause new bugs. The goal should be to make as few changes as possible to clear up the problem.

Bards vs other classes stacking
Lets be honest. Bards are the only class that stacks with themselves. Other classes can't stack but they cans till help bards. Bards can sing songs for eachother and other people. DRG, MNK, WAR, SCH, none of those classes can stack well with themselves. DRGs can't stack Dis for the 10% resist reductions. However both Dragoons should be using the combo that puts the debuff up because it is their highest potency combo. The same goes for Monk and warrior 10% resist reductions. SCH not only fail to stack with another SCH but they fail to stack alone. SCH damage reduction zone lowers damage to 90% and so it cant stack with another version of that zone. SCH shields do not stack at all.

Bards damage while singing songs
People say they lose 20% damage while singing songs while ignoring the fact that they have a trait that increases their damage by 20%. Bards are over par while not singing songs and where they should be while singing songs.

I am not going to go into what needs to change for Bards because the devs are going to narrow down the problem their own way and fix only what they think needs to be fixed. They have a design and they are going to keep it that way. However with Bards, the numbers are a little high for a class with so much utility and mobility as well as how safe and easy the class is to play.

no matter you like or dislike, the bard in this game just like barb in diablo3. Too op and too obvious op. I am waiting for a tuning( nerf) on this class. Otherwise in upcoming pvp we will only see bard. Kating all other class and kill them all. Monk 3 light, my goodness, how you can maintain that when you can't even touch them.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Due to how DoTs works (taking a snapshot of buffs at the moment they are casted) and Bard ability to reset non-GCD skill Bloodletter from Crits made by DoTs, this play a huge role in my opinion.
I can cast my DoTs with 45% crit (with my current gear) with 2 DoTs ticking, I will reset Bloodletter every 2 tick. Without this buff, I would only have 25% crit and would reset only every 4 tick.
From just 1 buff with a 60 sec CD, I get huge a burst. This get exponentially better as we boost this effects with other buffs making insane damage during buff stacking.

Granted I have not tested the real impact and this is just theory.

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i was under the impression that the cooldown of bloodletter is only reset if the initial cast of the DoT crits. i did not think that the individual ticks of the DoT could crit

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Originally Posted by fauxpas

i was under the impression that the cooldown of bloodletter is only reset if the initial cast of the DoT crits. i did not think that the individual ticks of the DoT could crit

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Each crit of the tick can reset blood letter.

If they don't come out a class balance patch before pvp out, I can see lots of people going quit the game. I saw this happened a few time in MMO game industry.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

It's not strictly the damage. It's also the utility stacked with it.

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Bards do less damage than other classes though, hence why I said check a parser. The mobility and the utility (which also reduces our damage further) is the tradeoff. Songs aren't that great either without the use of Battle Voice. At the end of the day the class has a high skill floor and can help compensate for healers who mismanage MP - of course it's going to be popular with the average player.

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Wrong on that one, "buddy." BRD was designed to be support. A DPS with really nice perks that overshadow most of the positives any other DPS classes have.

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There is no support classification, nor is there a DPS job that uses a bow. Every DPS class has some kind of support utility. You're a lancer, what would you call disembowel?

Alright, I lied in my last post. I will give a small amount of feedback on how I think bard should be changed. I would change Increased Action Damage I and II

Example

Increased Action Damage II: Increases base action damage by 20% after standing still for 3 seconds. This buff lasts for 1 second after moving.

This targets their mobility without removing it. This targets their damage without lowering it. Last but not least this targets their positioning without changing their abilities.

While that will not fix all the problems people have with bards (another being song stacking). I do think it is a solid start.

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Originally Posted by Gunba

Bards do less damage than other classes though, hence why I said check a parser. The mobility and the utility (which also reduces our damage further) is the tradeoff. Songs aren't that great either without the use of Battle Voice. At the end of the day the class has a high skill floor and can help compensate for healers who mismanage MP - of course it's going to be popular with the average player.

There is no support classification, nor is there a DPS job that uses a bow. Every DPS class has some kind of support utility. You're a lancer, what would you call disembowel?

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Not nearly as useful when lancers have to break off DPSing while BRDs get to keep firing away, taking advantage of the buff?

Point is, endgame, a lot of fights require movement. This will gimp everyone except bards. Your lower damage doesn't mean squat if you can still keep attacking while moving while those with higher damage are forced to stop.

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Originally Posted by Trayes

Alright, I lied in my last post. I will give a small amount of feedback on how I think monk should be changed. I would change Increased Action Damage I and II

Example

Increased Action Damage II: Increases base action damage by 20% after standing still for 3 seconds. This buff lasts for 1 second after moving.

This targets their mobility without removing it. This targets their damage without lowering it. Last but not least this targets their positioning without changing their abilities.

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This is a great solution IMO.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

Point is, endgame, a lot of fights require movement. This will gimp everyone except bards. Your lower damage doesn't mean squat if you can still keep attacking while moving while those with higher damage are forced to stop.

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The later fights generally require less movement, but ignoring that, you're essentially just describing the entire idea. We do lower damage, we have higher mobility. People playing higher DPS classes (read: every class) will win on meters if they can minimize their unnecessary movement (read: a skill). If you torpedo your BLM damage because you have parkinsons maybe you shouldn't play that class. Players who are capable of minimal movement while DPSing will keep up on Titan and win in BC compared to bards.

i dont see good drg/monk crying about bards... :')

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Originally Posted by Kroktar

i dont see good drg/monk crying about bards... :')

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instead of crying on forums they went out and learned to play haha

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Originally Posted by Kroktar

i dont see good drg/monk crying about bards... :')

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Well thats exactly like saying - 'i dont see good bards denying they need a nerf'.

But tbh. I dont think they need a nerf as much as a difficulty increase. Atm the class has a skill ceiling equal to its skill floor. An theyre both in the skill basement :P

Welcome to WOW.. oh wait...
This post has turned into a wow class forum .. all QQ

Threads like this make me sad. If you look at pg 1 of the dps forums is so much crying. Dont people realize when they create threads like these its only toxic to the community. Seriously the whining needs to stop (Like that will ever happen). Remember when all the people QQed about smn dps and now people are saying its top? I mean the community as a whole really looks childish. Although I guess the majority of posters are expected to be very young. Im looking at you OP.

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Originally Posted by t00nc3ss

And to the others, surprisingly all BRDs, who don't want a nerf OR buff other classes; what do you think will happen in the near future if nothing changes? Why be any another DPS class if BRD trumps all of them? Maybe a melee or caster if their LB is required, but otherwise be shunned.

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Still looking at the wrong reason why brd is "too strong" compared to other DD options. It isn't because they -do- more damage it is because they don't have to stop in order to avoid taking damage. All other DD are stronger than brd. Brd only come across stronger because in these hectic fights other DD have to move out of the way of damage dealing attacks causing them to stop doing damage. The change needed isn't the one your asking for, it is to the way the mobs behave themselves that hinders other DD, not because they are "weaker" than brd.

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Originally Posted by Umbral

Threads like this make me sad. If you look at pg 1 of the dps forums is so much crying. Dont people realize when they create threads like these its only toxic to the community. Seriously the whining needs to stop (Like that will ever happen). Remember when all the people QQed about smn dps and now people are saying its top? I mean the community as a whole really looks childish. Although I guess the majority of posters are expected to be very young. Im looking at you OP.

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Welcome to MMO dude, forum is not used to promote product but accept customer feedback(most are complain). If you say hey I don't think bard is op then you are welcome to write your factors here, other wise you are toxic to the community. good is good, not good is not good, we can't blind our eye. So far most people agree bard is op.(over powerful and over popular)

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Welcome to MMO dude, forum is not used to promote product but accept customer feedback(most are complain). If you say hey I don't think bard is op then you are welcome to write your factors here, other wise you are toxic to the community. good is good, not good is not good, we can't blind our eye. So far most people agree bard is op.(over powerful and over popular)

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who is this most people you speak of? you mean people on this forum? or people you know? and why is over popular such a negitive thing? most people would agree that monks are more skill based than other classes so could this mean that there are players who dont know how to play there class? it does leave the door open for the possiblity that someone like yourself might not know the best way to play there class