Now I've seen it all...someone offended for offering to help them?

I see no issue with turning down an offer for help. If I wanted help/advice, I'd ask for it.

Call me a toxic player, but I genuinely think OP was being a bit pushy.

I'm always open to explain things anytime someone asks, though i'm also the type to give people the benefit of the doubt until I notice something is going poorly, then i'll chime in. Can't say i've ever heard of someone turning down an offer of an explanation/help, but I have witnessed multiple instances of flat out refusal to listen/change tactics.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Doesn't really change the fact that they're out there though, which makes it sort of a gamble to whether you encounter them and how frequently it happens.

[snip, due character limit]

Personally, the majority of people I've met don't mind new players. Most of the time, we lead in with "anyone new here?" and if no answer, then we go with "it's important to know what to do for this fight that's why". It usually works out.

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You are right, they do exist, but in my personal experiance its rare/uncommon and most of the time most of the time a reaction towards the new guy trowing an tantum, doesnt make it right though, but like I stated before, its all about how you present yourself, as new or experianced guy.

I tend to run into people where they are nice at first, try to explain everything to you, you do your best to listen but when you make mistakes, (i'm sure it happens to everyone and i'm not as skilled as most people :)), boy do the claws come out. lol

It seems like you were badgering him from the start, just simply because he walked into the zone with low level gear... You're probably glamorizing the way you were harassing him (or at least babying him), and you didn't actually "offer help," either. Eh, guess that's how I'd interpret getting drilled with questions like that from the start. Maybe you were a kind, gentle soul as you're presenting yourself on the OP, but I guess I'm not convinced.

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Originally Posted by Nanga

I hope toxic players like these all disappear soon.

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what is toxic, does it even have a clear definition? because it seems about as subjective as racism is nowadays.

the person left your group, they did not call you a giant doodoohead and then threaten to take the life of your firstborn and devour it's heart.

Were they polite? not really! were they extremely discourteous, spewing vitriol and just downright unnecessarily vulgar? did they attempt to pull a bunch of other trash to wipe your group? not that i know of unless you forgot to mention it!

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Originally Posted by Nanga

Asking someone if they are new is giving the third degree? Some people are extremely sensitive I guess. But I digress. I suppose that answers what was going on in their head.

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Social skills, you got to learn them. Don't blame your ineptitude on someone else.

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Originally Posted by Dorin

Would've been different if you typed something like "Hey man are you new? If you are I can explain you how bosses work, if you want :)".

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It's all about that SmileyFace :) !!!!

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Originally Posted by HurtigeKarl

Social skills, you got to learn them. Don't blame your ineptitude on someone else.

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Speaking in ineptitude,we where not there, we dont know how it was asked, nor do we know the entire conversation(s) that expired.
Its better not to asume either way.
Its not unthinkeble the new guy was.. the rude one nor is it unthinkeble he expected to be caried and blaming everyone else but himself that he did not get caried. Not saying that was the case, but its definately not unthinkeble.
New people are atleast as rude and as often as more seasoned players.

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Originally Posted by Bossycow

It seems like you were badgering him from the start, just simply because he walked into the zone with low level gear... You're probably glamorizing the way you were harassing him (or at least babying him), and you didn't actually "offer help," either. Eh, guess that's how I'd interpret getting drilled with questions like that from the start. Maybe you were a kind, gentle soul as you're presenting yourself on the OP, but I guess I'm not convinced.

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I'm not following really. What's in it for me to change what was said? I didn't put any names out there except for my own, so I wasn't trying to publicly humiliate anyone - unless you're saying I wanted to humiliate myself, in which case, according to what you say, I succeeded? So I say again, I have nothing to gain from trying to glamorize anything, and everything to lose from it. I think it's probably best to just take it at face value and realize you were given a word-for-word exchange.

Something else I've read here that I'm not fully aware of, I suppose, is maybe the social or cultural differences that require "mad dog" treatment before offering help. By this I mean, before offering to genuinely help someone, you must first approach them as though they are a rabid, mangy, wild dog, with blood dripping from its mouth and a half-eaten human arm laying at its feet. This dog is also bleeding from one leg and needs help or it will die. If one does not pay specially close attention to using a sing-songy voice, gentle and cuddly words, and slow petting strokes while offering a cuddly squeaky toy before attempting to help the dog, that person should expect to be attacked and bitten by the dog which is only protecting itself.

I would think as advanced, intelligent human beings who use simple words that have simple meaning, we do not need to treat each other as a "mad dog" before trying to help them. We just merely need to ask if they are new, which answers the question to if they need help.

Of course, being a solely English-speaking player on the Japanese server group, many of us have learned to just use the very simplest of words and questions to convey a thought, question, or expression, in cases of the language barrier preventing us from communicating. Had I treated the other player as potentially hostile, not only would I feel like I was treating them like a mad dog, but the effort could very likely be lost in translation altogether. The in-game auto-translator does not convey complex thoughts that express a positive "feeling" when asking a question. It just simply asks the question straight up. Is this where people are confused into thinking not enough effort was given to convey a positive feeling behind the first question? Food for thought, folks.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I just don't understand people. I get that it's hard to interpret emotion/sarcasm/what-have-you through type alone, but when I explain boss fights it is genuinely in the best interest of the group and I never use any terms that could be misconstrued as condescending or hateful. I am a person who likes the most amount of detail possible, so I offer that in my explanations.

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I like to describe myself as patient, but I also value efficiency. I like explanations that are clear and concise. If you describe every minute detail, I'll probably forget most of it.

Also, I like to learn by doing. I'm a visual learner. If you explain, I may or may not be able to picture it in my head. Just give me the salient points. If I see it in action, I'll get it. I may die a couple of times, but it'll eventually sink in and be a cakewalk the next time.

That being said, most people are impatient. If you put up too much to read, they simply won't read it at all.

To be fair to the player, something along the lines of, "Hey, if you're new we'd be glad to explain the bosses." in party not /tell would have worked better. The way you're explaining it, the player probably felt set up.

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Originally Posted by Vahlaria

To be fair to the player, something along the lines of, "Hey, if you're new we'd be glad to explain the bosses." in party not /tell would have worked better. The way you're explaining it, the player probably felt set up.

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Can't send tells in instances, it had to be in party chat. If he was in level 30 gear he shouldn't have even been in the dungeon for this to happen. Gear Check can't come fast enough.

You need to understand that the more questions you ask somebody before getting to your point ("beating around the bush", as it were), the more likely they are to get/feel defensive, like "what are you getting at/is this a trap?".

You say you didn't actually have time to offer help, but you would have if you had made it your second question. Now, I'm not saying you should completely baby someone, but I mean this exchange probably would have gone much smoother:

Your first question: Have you done this before?
Their answer: No.
Your second question: "Okay then, do you need/would you like a quick rundown on the boss mechanics?"

Instead, this is what happened:

[continued in next post, geez this character limit is unforgiving. -.-]

Your first question: "Have you done this before?"
Their answer: "No."
Your second question: "Have you read any guides/watched any videos?" (essentially, "Have you done any homework?")
Their answer: "..."

I'm assuming their lack of response was because in their head they were already imagining your third question, which with that kind of lead-in probably sounded like "Well why should I be expected to carry someone who can't even be arsed to do their homework?!"

I'm certainly not trying to ride your ass or anything, I'm just saying it is very, very easy to misread intent when your voice has no tone or inflection in this particular medium. The shorter and sweeter you keep your questions, the less likely they are to be misinterpreted.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

what is toxic, does it even have a clear definition? because it seems about as subjective as racism is nowadays.

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Toxicity is not just someone being abusive. A community is described as "toxic" because it spreads.

For instance, someone says that they are new, and they get abandoned. That person becomes reluctant to say that they are new. Someone (who just wants to help) asks if they are new. Since they're afraid of being abandoned again, they clam up. Now both parties think that the other one is being rude!

People being abusive make other people put their defenses up. People with their defenses up may then be seen as easily offended, or even rude. They may even become abusive themselves. It makes people afraid to use the Duty Finder, or just stop using it entirely. This is what toxicity is.

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Originally Posted by SpiritedMare

Your first question: "Have you done this before?"
Their answer: "No."
Your second question: "Have you read any guides/watched any videos?" (essentially, "Have you done any homework?")
Their answer: "..."

I'm assuming their lack of response was because in their head they were already imagining your third question, which with that kind of lead-in probably sounded like "Well why should I be expected to carry someone who can't even be arsed to do their homework?!"

I'm certainly not trying to ride your ass or anything, I'm just saying it is very, very easy to misread intent when your voice has no tone or inflection in this particular medium. The shorter and sweeter you keep your questions, the less likely they are to be misinterpreted.

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I guess maybe read my reply on page 5, where I realized not many folks understand the language barrier many of us encounter as a one language-speaking person trying to communicate with, potentially, someone who also only speaks one language, but a different one. We use the auto-translate function to ask a very simply-worded question. Depending on how that person answers (or doesn't answer), and in what language or method (in auto-translate, for example), determines whether we respond more thoroughly or with the auto-translate again. I didn't receive a reply to the auto-translate first question for a long time, so it was asked again. The person finally answered, in decent enough English, that I tried to find out if they were familiar or not yet. But the exchange didn't go any further, as immediately afterwards the accident happened, and that's when they left with their response.

On the bright side I've also learned to trust in Google Translate, due to this thread, because it really is good at conveying much more complex thoughts and questions than what the auto-translate does from the get go, and has had quite a bit better results.

There is a right way and a wrong way to help new players.

If there is someone undergeared or new, I will usually either say "If anyone has any questions, let me know," or "If anyone needs help with boss strats, tell me" or something similar to this. On most bosses, new people will actually ask in party for tips in my experience, and then I'll freely give them. This approach is the most efficient. It's not about just being nice for the sake of being nice, it's presenting your help in a way that will most easily register with the largest number of people.

For boss strats, get to the point. Don't copy paste gigantic paragraphs, address each mechanic. Like on AK final boss, I'll say "watch head and tail, theyre dangerous. For catastrophe, hide behind statues. it comes from center of room, not boss, so hide accordingly. after catastrophe, kill the add. after two catastrophes, there will be purple leashes on people. the target drags the leash away from the party so the aoe doesnt hit everyone." usually, ill rapid fire each sentence so people know I'm talking and don't preemptively pull before I'm done. I'll usually fire off a "that's pretty much it" so people know I'm finished. If people ask any questions for clarification, quickly answer them. Often a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice if it's a yes or no question.

Never, ever, EVER bring up someone's gear, even if it's bad. Ignore it. If you can't clear the boss because of someone's gear level after a few wipes, people will either leave or you'll decide it's worth leaving. Usually I stay, though, because I often find that replacement groups in AK in particular can usually salvage a run very easily.

Remember, it's all about being clear, concise, efficient, and not coming across as a jerk. I hope this helps.

EDIT if this is about the language barrier, just do your best to convey the message. If it doesn't work, there's not much else you can do.

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Originally Posted by SpiritedMare

You need to understand that the more questions you ask somebody before getting to your point ("beating around the bush", as it were), the more likely they are to get/feel defensive, like "what are you getting at/is this a trap?".

You say you didn't actually have time to offer help, but you would have if you had made it your second question. Now, I'm not saying you should completely baby someone, but I mean this exchange probably would have gone much smoother:

Your first question: Have you done this before?
Their answer: No.
Your second question: "Okay then, do you need/would you like a quick rundown on the boss mechanics?"

Instead, this is what happened:

[continued in next post, geez this character limit is unforgiving. -.-]

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This is also a very good point. Don't lead people on and on with inspection questions. They'll start to get insecure and are more likely to lash out.

Interesting thread. I am new to most of the dungeons (lvl.30) and I am always making sure I tell the team that. Usually by asking if there is anything special to keep in mind, or I say it's my first run. Sometimes the description has some hints as well.
One time I made the mistake to continue killing the boss instead of the sword that had to be killed first. We wiped but no one was mad or kicked me. So far I was able to stay in.. ^^
Felt pretty bad about my mistake that cost everyone their life, so I am making sure I know what I am doing in there. If they kick me because I am new, ok with me, I am not rushing to 50. Making sure though my gear is up to par, to have the best chance. It helps being a DPS class so I don't have as much of a responsibility as a tank or healer.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldAres

This is also a very good point. Don't lead people on and on with inspection questions. They'll start to get insecure and are more likely to lash out.

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Actually, they have are right in assuming that either the person asking lacks social skills or simply has bad intentions. Why? Well, because they are very much aware of that every person has a choice when it comes to how they express themselves in language. Since there are multiple choices, it is of interest to analyze why a particular choice was made; this leads to the conclusion I drew in the first sentence of this post.