Advantages of WHM over SCH?

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Originally Posted by Pentt

Please don't tell me I'm posting misinformation without evidence.

WHM has 2 DoTs as well. They do not have Bane to spread them, but during AoE trash Holy is the spell to go to anyway.

They do not have access to the pet healer, but we are talking about farming content that we outgear. A regen will be enough to keep your tank alive in most trash packs.

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I'm not entirely sure what type of evidence you're looking for. Would you like me to give you a link to our damage spells or something?

I can give you some anecdotal evidence by saying, "Well my DoT's alone tick for about 600 or so," but that doesn't really do this conversation any good.

Heh and I thought levelling was slow as hell when on my conjurer...

A SCH in "full dps mode" can stack up dots to 205 potency (with some of them having some nice side effects) it takes 3 full casts to do this. Around 115 of this is aoe.

A SCH is still healing while dotting (fairy) and can heal in between keeping dot stacks up.

A SCH also has cleric stance.

Also read the thread, this is from further up:
Low healing required - DPS race: SCH, hands down.
The WHM has more burst damage, but the spells are too mana intensive. SCH can dot up, throw up cleric stance to have the dots do more damage, and then take it back down when it's time to heal. They can also swap to the utility fairy which will boost the skill/spell speed of actual DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by rylai

You are not counting SCH dots.

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SCHs have 3 dots to a WHM's 2.

SCHs can have 5 if they give up more useful cross class skills for aero, and thunder. WHM's can have 3 with thunder.

Since WHMs already have stoneskin, protect, and cleric stance, there is more breathing room for them to get thunder with virus, eye for an eye, swiftcast, and surecast. SCHs best choice would be to drop surecast for thunder compared to protect, stoneskin, cleric stance, and swiftcast. Good luck choosing something else to drop for aero, though. This is assuming we're talking about 4 mans.

You can barely count miasma ii as a 6th dot due to it's comparitively short duration of 15 seconds, and 10 potency. It's also a point-blank AOE around the player.

WHM's have a single target nuke (170) with over double the potency of ruin per cast with a higher mind stat to abuse with cleric stance.

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SCH vastly out damages WHM

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Given the above, doubt that.

In bursts, WHMs win easy, though.

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and can offer some offheals via the pet while doing it.

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Medica ii, and regen says hi.

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Originally Posted by Jacina

They can also swap to the utility fairy which will boost the skill/spell speed of actual DPS classes.

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I do abuse this in places I could fall asleep healing, but let's not pretend that ~.1 second off of 2.5 second casts/recasts at best is a dealbreaker :D.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

~.1 second off of 2.5 second casts/recasts at best

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is it that low?
I mean 30% of 2.5 is 0.83 => 1.7s cast...

We have an 'OH SHIT!' Button and you don't. (Benediction)

Although lustrate is kinda weaker (20x3), its on shorter CD and easier to utilize since its split into 3 casts.

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is it that low?
I mean 30% of 2.5 is 0.83 => 1.7s cast...

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This is easily the biggest mistake every SCH (or even everybody) made. No, its -30% of your BONUS stats, or w/e it is, so the actual %speed is pretty pathetic ATM. check it out in game. Coupled with its wanky 1S silence, Selene suddenly turned out worthless.

I see this has turned into another debate over how a WHM is so much better than a SCH. My favorite argument is the mana argument saying "ohh well you have a bard" this is comical because now your talking about two different players working together, while comparing it to one.

Ultimately I don't care if SE gave in and said ok lets give a SCH the same healing potency and area abilities as the WHM, but now every pet spell costs the SCH MP, as well as every pet spell transfers the hate to the SCH, as well as shields yielding the same hate as a regular heal, couple that with if the SCH is running or kiting mobs the fairy doesn't do anything unless you stop, and just give you instant regen to use in that situation. Take away the mana regen you have and give you shroud of saints as your only MP regen tool "and bards". Then fix the pet UI, and make it so both of you can not cast at the same time and your fairy goes by your range to target and can no longer be sent across the room to heal people out of range unless you move in range all the while not casting while you move. That sounds about equal.

I see arguments here that are based on one of the highest MP cost abilities we have aside from Holy and Revive that also come with the most hate. I cast Medica II twice in a row that is 1/4 of my MP bar, if I medica II then medica I it's about the same. You say oh well bard "that's a team not a solo comparison". I can say well you don't need a big AoE heal you have a WHM in that same context.

So lets just say you had a big bomb heal and you got agro from just about every mob in the pile minus a few. You can kite around while your fairy heals people and use instants, when that happens to me I have to regen folks, and stopping to cast a heal may cost me my life and a wipe, so it is not like I am tossing medica's around like candy here unless I want to die or I want to run out of MP and the group die, this is only used when it is absolutely necessary because of the consequences.

It seems pretty fair with the amount of hate SCH build, their mana regen, and utilities, with the ability to heal and move, a pet UI fix is about all that is really needed anything more would be overkill. Like increasing my mana regen or lowering my hate to that of a SCH would be overkill.

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Originally Posted by Jarlax

You say oh well bard "that's a team not a solo comparison". I can say well you don't need a big AoE heal you have a WHM in that same context.

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Great post but I particularly like that you brought this argument up.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

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Feel free to doubt me all you like. Your anecdotal evidence is just as good as mine. Until you run an updated parser or a sim, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to convince you otherwise.

Also, stoneskin is pretty garb for SCH. I rarely take it.

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

is it that low?
I mean 30% of 2.5 is 0.83 => 1.7s cast...

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It is that low.

It's 30% more of your bonus spell/skill speed rating from the looks of it.

Jacina et all - Scholars can actually stack 6 dots at once with cross class (Lighning I and Aero) and their AoE dot (people forget this for some reason? probably because it has a melee range... but I just run into melee to keep it up).

There are similar arguments in relation to paladin/warrior on thier forum. Maybe its caused by "the grass is always greener..." I don't know. I like playing WHM so I play WHM. I am going to try scholar as well, just to try it. But I will always be WHM - because it is what I like to do. If you don't like what you do, or things about your class, very easy to change classes in this game without starting a whole new toon.

Argue the numbers all you like. A good SCH and a good WHM together will own that battlefield. That aside, if you must have a reason why one could be better than the other..it's easy.

WHM look awesome and iconic in their AF gear.

SCH Look like a harry potter cosplay gone wrong.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Your math is a bit off, and you have an extra digit in there.

4 x 700 = 2800

.1 x 2800 = 280

2800 - 280 = 2520

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you forgot that there is 8 party members taking that stomp. So its 4stomps at 700 damage a stomp equaling 2800 per person. there are 8 people so 8 times 2800 = 22400.

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Originally Posted by ghondon

you forgot that there is 8 party members taking that stomp. So its 4stomps at 700 damage a stomp equaling 2800 per person. there are 8 people so 8 times 2800 = 22400.

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When you said per person in your post, I figure you ment the damage per person.

Either way, sacred soil is worth a bit more than a single tick of medica ii on everyone in that example.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

When you said per person in your post, I figure you ment the damage per person.

Either way, sacred soil is worth a bit more than a single tick of medica ii on everyone in that example.

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Sacred Soil is static during this to, so they are getting all this healing plus pumping out Succor with more shields. They out heal a WHM during the stomps/leaps/ultimate. I really think both have their place and are on pretty even footing. In coil a SCH/WHM combo is invaluable.

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Originally Posted by ghondon

Sacred Soil is static during this to, so they are getting all this healing plus pumping out Succor with more shields. They out heal a WHM during the stomps/leaps/ultimate. I really think both have their place and are on pretty even footing. In coil a SCH/WHM combo is invaluable.

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Sacred soil is static, I know, but we're not at the point of an 8 person group suffering so much more than 3k damage per person in AOE damage within 15 seconds, so we're not going to see sacred soil absorbing much more than ~300 damage per person if that, unless the tank(s) is getting his arse kicked in the bubble too.

It's nice, but not that powerful.

Last night our FC had me(SCH) and another healer(WHM) who needed AK for relic so we figured what the hell and ran it as WHM,SCH,BRD,WAR. I went cleric stance for 90% of the time and parsed it. I out damaged the bard on trash pulls(due to bane) and matched his damage on bosses. We had no problems with the wall or the final boss even without a STR LB. In any emergency I was able to shift out and heal.

As far as gear goes. I am wearing only 4 AK and one piece of DL with a Garuda weapon. The bard has FULL DL and an Ifrit weapon. and before the flood of "bad bard"... if thats the case how did we meet the DPS timers?

I'm not gonna post a parser SS. You can believe me or not. Frankly, I don't give a shit. It's probably better if you don't because theres no way a healer should be able to deal that much damage and I would rather not have it nerfed before PVP comes out and SCH face rolls every WHM. WHM's can go on thinking they can deal as much damage as SCH but they are wrong.

XIVAPP does not correctly parse DOT damage; this is pretty well known and acknowledged. SMN (and thus SCH) damage is substantially overstated; I have had a below average SMN parse at 334 DPS on Titan over the course of a fight. That is an impossible figure.

The fact remains that we met(and greatly exceeded) the dps timers without a problem.

also they claim to have fixed the dot issues in a recent update.

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Originally Posted by Sebastianaru

Jacina et all - Scholars can actually stack 6 dots at once with cross class (Lighning I and Aero) and their AoE dot (people forget this for some reason? probably because it has a melee range... but I just run into melee to keep it up).

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Not worth putting it up on a single target (as sch), it is actully lower total potency then 1 ruin .
miasma 2 (20+(10x5)) 70 potency
Ruin/Ruin2 80 Potency

Sch and whm can contribute meaningful dps outside of coil. However when you try to dps mobs in coil, majority of your spells miss including energy drain making using them a waste of time and mana.

Nobody needs WHM or SCH, Black mages are the best healers in the game anyway. Physik forever.

Just cause I feel like adding this. Holy took a huge nerf from 1.0. If youtube still has the the King Mog fights look for the one with one tank and the rest WHMs. Holy (when stacked) had a much higher output than any BLM AM (Ancient Magic) spell stacked. I'd much rather have a WHM spamming Holy than wait on some DoTs from SCH. ACN is based around sustained damage while CNJ is burst. Same goes for the both classes, jobs. SMN and SCH are sustainable damage/healing while WHM is burst. Only problem with group is that all regens are per tick for cure potency and they stack. In both 8 and 24 man groups more than 1 SCH and the SCHs step on each others toes, where as all WHM regens stack.

One thing I felt envy about whm is their regen spell and magic defence trait for protect. Regan gvs more options in cushioning the inc dmg, while magic mitigation for protect is just awesome, at least it would be more useful for non tanks in the group.

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Originally Posted by Cimegs5088

One thing I felt envy about whm is their regen spell and magic defence trait for protect. Regan gvs more options in cushioning the inc dmg, while magic mitigation for protect is just awesome, at least it would be more useful for non tanks in the group.

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i agree... Fey Covenant sucks in comparison to a WHM using protect since only WHMs have shell attached.

ive been doing alot of primal runs (hard) and everytime i have a scholar in the group i dont heal the ones that have been a little damaged. I find scholars are more of a aux healer compared to white mages. Like there heals are nowhere near the amount i (WHM) heal for. Dont get me wrong they are very useful, it free's me up to focus on the larger scale, but they are shitty compared to white mage.

WHM 50/ SCH 50 here, on turn 4 of coil.
I'm seeing people saying whm got more burst heal than sch.
This is so wrong. I just feel so frustrated playing as a whm when i have to. I got way less tools for the oh shit situations.. I'm talking about Sacred soil. Once u've been using this ability for a while its really difficult to not have it, i can't count the number of times it saved a tank. The simple fact that you can heal the tank for 1,5k-2k instantly and X3, while moving (being able to avoid aoes and heal at the same time is quite amazing) makes up for anything a sch would lack. Once you get to coil there are so many oh shit situations thats its not a benediction every 5min thats is gonna do the job, for sure.
Btw, I macroed my fairie heal with mine so its like all of my cures are Cure II, with infinite mana.
I actually do feel like SCH are a bit overpowered compared to whm, looking at the HPS meter during fights.

Finally, i found sch way more fun than whm. (the tools, the micro management, etc).


We work extremely well with the whm, they protect/shell and medica II, we heal and save the tanks. <3

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Originally Posted by MaaJuice

Dont get me wrong they are very useful, it free's me up to focus on the larger scale, but they are shitty compared to white mage.

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The fact that you wouldn't target a member for healing for any reason at all during a HM primal is a sign of a bad healer.

I've thrown out a heal of 1500 with a shield that stops 3000 damage on top of it.
I'm sure a lot of team members would value that over a heal of 2000 followed by more damage taken meaning you need to continue to throw out heals and spend MP.
Just like the group would most likely value a group heal from a WHM rather than me.
It all comes down to the situation that you're in at the time.

Both roles have their strengths. But SCH is most certainly not "shitty".
Basing your opinion on a green number you see on the screen before you've even played or understood the role is not the right way to go about things.

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Originally Posted by Dorin

Nobody needs WHM or SCH, Black mages are the best healers in the game anyway. Physik forever.

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I actually was stuck physicking Gorgimera fight as blm once. It was brutal. IN the end, without my nukes as dps, we lost the fight, lol.

Not sure about much of this.

You get 100 post a day arguing over which is better.

They were designed to work hand in hand.

Long sustained fights hands down SCH has the advantage. Bursts heals goes to the WHM.

Damage mitigation SCH, AOE Heals WHM.

You can see the pattern right? Where one falls short the other shines.

They can both heal just fine it comes down to if you want a unicorn and look good or a fairy and looking like harry potter.

Any end game player would rather an SCH and WHM to both the same.

Scholar is better.

So which one would be better for daily AK runs?

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

So which one would be better for daily AK runs?

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The better group. I'm pretty sure a WHM would be as prone to falling a asleep healing that place as I assuming both given decent groups.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

The better group. I'm pretty sure a WHM would be as prone to falling a asleep healing that place as I assuming both given decent groups.

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This.

On a side note AF look wise I like both but would love an option to put the WHMs hood up (with it hanging of course no pointy straight up) and to remove the SCHs silly mortar board and just have the glasses. ^^

I am not sure what everyone expects of the pixie...
I find the AI just fine (for now at least).
It is really important to place the pixie to the correct place and not just have it hover behind your arse where it will only heal you and maybe the rogue BLM that comes stand next to you.
In Titan fight, place it next to the tank and when it gets knocked back, put it back there!
Also who said Succor sucks?!
I always cast Succor before and middle of Titan Stomps to give that extra HP buffer for everyone - it makes a difference.

I prefer WHM on things like AK, Holy spam ftw! But for harder content I actually think SCH and WHM make a great team, shouldn't really debate which is better...

After running coil to turn 4 the other night things kinda were put into perspective for me as far as the whole WHM vs Sch argument goes.

So in coil sch tends to be just a single target healer. You tend to stay on one specific tank and keep with him until some mechanic makes it so you swap to another. In every other fight aside from the coil raid, I've been able to do tons of AoE healing + single target healing where as in coil because the demand for single target is so high that is mostly what you are doing. Here are a list of things that either make up for the lack of full on healing the whm has or need to be changed to bring the sch more in line.

First, you need to get use to casting embrace before every other healing spell cast. Usually, I cast it directly after "the shield spell" (cant spell it) always followed by a physick. Ive talked with my Whm friend. He mentioned that when a tank drops to a certain point it is very hard for his whm to make the tank have his HP raise higher then what its currently at with out blowing the emergancy heal or with out swiftcasting cure 2 followed by more big heals. With scholar it is possible to quickly recover from a big hit with "the shield spell".

Another thing to think about, in coil no matter what or what healing class you are you will need the bard mana song so aether charges become almost meaningless for mana return. very few instances can you swap to a target and drop a mana drain because of how big the damage is from the mobs. I was finding my self running out of mana about when the Whm was but still this is worth noting since you said you feel like you have infinite mana. Yeah i feel like i have infinite mana if im healing anything other then coil.

The lack of shear pure hps vs the whm would at first make you think the sch is not very good vs the whm and you'd be right in area heals and even in emergency single target heals. Lustrate is useless unless you cast it on a warrior since the crit from physick is almost more then 20% of the targets hp. The only times i find my self using Lustrate is if the tank is at like <1k hp and i dont have swift cast.

I do believe that sch's need to have a few tweeks here and there to bring their healing up to a certain level but mainly if you learn to micro your fairy well and use the proper rotation you can almost out heal a whm with "effective" added HP. Im talking added HP through shields. criting on the "shield heal" for 1.2k gives a 2.4k shield on the target. This is huge. It effectively makes the heal into a 3.6k heal.