Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by pepero

You sound afraid that your PLD will no longer be the loved tank class by everyone in endgame, you afraid of Warriors being on equal footing as a PLD in terms of tanking ability? Grow up.

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This comment is just pointless

On that note, WAR does need a buff to their self healing capabilities. Adding in more mobs to hit doesn't just increase more self healing you do, it also increases more damage you take. If you can't do a significant amount of self healing to be on par with PLD mitigation on one mob, you're not going to do it on 4 mobs. You don't multiply one side of the equation by 4, you have to do that to both sides.

WAR does need some love. I don't want them to be PLDs because I love what a WAR brings to the table, but I can't utilize it yet because it takes a lot of luck and an excess amount of skill you don't find in most of your player base (not even the hard core ones... even though Yoshi has made it clear this game is casual first, hard core later)

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

WAR is a tank that excels in tanking multiple targets and dealing damage. This debate has come up in several threads, and many warriors feel there is no point in them doing damage if they are there to tank.

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And there has also been a lot of speculation suggesting that warrior damage is actually pretty much the same as a Paladin's damage output.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Nobody is saying WAR can't main tank

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really? because Hiir Noivl is the only WAR that says they can MT and WARs who have gotten farther than them always criticize them, saying it is very rough. How is that for "showing off"?

it's often posted "war makes good offtank", but the majority of this games content doesn't even require an offtank.

i always laugh when i queue ifrit and pld complains about stunning, but i don't think anyone plays a tank to sit in a corner spamming AE or whatever.

Lol @ Sephirah and whoever else is on a campaign to try and prevent warrior buffs because it'll infringe on their class' privilege as supreme, universally favored tank. So selfish, so simple-minded, such lack of character. Some people just have such an unhealthy obsession with being regarded as "the best" in video games, in any possible way, even if that way is to merely be playing a class that's the best. What a miserable lot.

warrior can tank Titan HM! that is with 3 healer and super awesome gear

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Oh yea because chain running AK and CM really gives you an insight that is beyond me huh? You've probably beaten titan once for your relic quest and never again, and have done absolutely nothing past that other than running CM and AK over and over. Or am I missing something?

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Says the guy who just hit level 50 and did AK and Ifrit one time each. Big time talk though.

Actually I play with a dedicated group with a Paladin tank and we've experimented with both PAL and WAR plenty through Coil. I doubt you've ever seen a WAR try to do anything at all, at most maybe offtank garuda (don't even need an offtank for Garuda, WHM can offtank) or Ifrit (doesn't do high damage to the tank.)

You are 100% talking out of your ass. Wild speculation and theory rather than any actual experience with the WAR class.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Lol @ Sephirah

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Well to be fair, when classes got overhauled in 1.19 MRD/WAR has had the upper hand on GLD/PLD in nearly everything till very late in 1.0 (about 1 year), and many MRD/WAR's would say PLD is just fine though LvCorrection borked defense, Shields were broken, Enmity Multiplers sucked on their hate combo, WAR actually got more mitigatioin abilities than PLD, and PLD couldn't parry with Shields equipped. While at the same time WAR's could self heal to full, had abilities that increased defense/parry through taking hits, had more direct mitigation abilities, and had crit WS buffers, and was alot simpler to tank than PLD. So I admit some legacy players are rightfully a little jaded against WAR's, but most legacy players still believe WAR still fulfills the same functions it did in 1.0.

Mayhaps it's just me though, as I've got several main WAR's in my FC who've tanked just as much stuff as I have (Titan and some Bahamuts included).

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Well to be fair, when classes got overhauled in 1.19 MRD/WAR has had the upper hand on GLD/PLD in nearly everything till very late in 1.0 (about 1 year), and many MRD/WAR's would say PLD is just fine though...

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I really hope this happens. If it does, I will spam the forums about how PLD is fine even though I know otherwise and tell you all how infallible Yoshi-P is. See how you like it.

i dont Need mitigation abilitys, i Need more selfheal, so the healer feels my selfheals, just right now it just sucks.
And i dont really know, some ppl from my Free Company said, that Yoshi says: "Warrior are just fine", other ppl say we are not fine....

If Warrior are really as good as Paladin, then tell me the secrets, maybee i just suck, who knows.

But i dont think its "good" if i Need to stack 5 Wrath, Need to use 4 Abilities, just to get one "big" heal from Inner Beast about 1500-2000. and for that "good" heal, i spend so much Abilities and i Need to wait again 2min to repeat that...

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Originally Posted by Faction

I really hope this happens. If it does, I will spam the forums about how PLD is fine even though I know otherwise and tell you all how infallible Yoshi-P is. See how you like it.

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I never said I myself was jaded towards WAR, as I play both. I just know that WAR's are facing the flipside of the coin that PLD suffered through for so long, and I can rightfully understand why.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Says the guy who just hit level 50 and did AK and Ifrit one time each. Big time talk though.

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There is no point in debating with you Faction. Think whatever you want, if you choose to believe I'm a terrible player that has only beat ifrit once then that is your prerogative (I must be the luckiest guy in the world though to get ifrits blade and 1320 tomestones from 1 ifrit and AK run, lol)

You aren't disputing any of my claims to what you've run, so I can only assume I'm correct, and you keep trying to attack me personally rather than my ideas because you have nothing worthwhile to actually say.

I have absolutely no problem with WAR getting buffed people, increase the shi*t out of their health regen I don't care, the only thing I have a problem with Faction is that you want pld to have equal defense, I'm sorry but war just wasn't designed that way.

I understand WoW has bred a generation of self-entitlement, the likes of which have never been seen. And I'm fine with seeing WAR get increased self healing, but the 2 classes should not be homogenous, that is just lame, and boring.

this thread was suppose to be out discussing Yoshi's statement not a bitch fest about who is the better tank. Take the pissing match elsewhere there are a ton posts already created for that.

To get back on topic, Imo it does appear that the Devs feel War current state is fine based on the comments. I interpreted the in development comment to mean the internal testing environment using current attainable spells and gear. I'm wondering if we are missing important due to not enough theory crafting.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

I understand WoW has bred a generation of self-entitlement, the likes of which have never been seen. And I'm fine with seeing WAR get increased self healing, but the 2 classes should not be homogenous, that is just lame, and boring.

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"WoW bred casuals!" is becoming the new Godwin's law.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

I have absolutely no problem with WAR getting buffed people, increase the shi*t out of their health regen I don't care, the only thing I have a problem with Faction is that you want pld to have equal defense, I'm sorry but war just wasn't designed that way.

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After spending the entire thread talking about how WAR is perfectly fine and saying that it's all "strengths and weaknesses," white items paladin comes out and backtracks entirely. Surprise surprise!

It's really weird that you suddenly have "no problem with buffs" when according to you, WAR and PAL are perfectly balanced! It's just STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES!

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Originally Posted by Faction

After spending the entire thread talking about how WAR is perfectly fine and saying that it's all "strengths and weaknesses," white items paladin comes out and backtracks entirely. Surprise surprise!

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Because you're so pro calling me a white-item paladin, even though the only difference in the content we've played through is Titan. You got lucky and beat Titan once, spent the rest of their time running CM and AK and thinks you know more about end-game content than I do because you have your relic. If you re-read the entire post, you'd see that I have already said I'd be fine with increased self-healing. If you chose to ignore that previously in another attempt to discredit me, then that's your own fault.

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From Page 2:

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Yes, PLD will always be better at straight up taking a hit. This was how they were designed, it's what makes them a PLD. That does not mean that they are the "best" tank for all situations.

If you define being the "better" tank as being able to straight up mitigate the most damage, then you need to role a PLD, because WAR was not designed that way.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

you are right.

Paladin is designed for reduce incoming dmg
Warrior is designed to conter incoming dmg with his selfheal.

The truth is, the Selfheal is way to low to conter.

Dont get me wrong, i dont want that SE will add dmg reduce abilities to WAR, but they Need to push his selfheals.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

I'd be totally fine with that.

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Originally Posted by Faction

It's really weird that you suddenly have "no problem with buffs" when according to you, WAR and PAL are perfectly balanced! It's just STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES!

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Yes, I do think they are well balanced, but I'm not against them getting buffed in certain areas, if their dmg and hp regen was increased that would be really good I think. I'm only advocating that the classes should not become homogenous by increasing their defense.

Just for arguments sake, if warrior had its hp regen and dmg buffed to the point where WAR was the new class of choice and everyone thought pld was underpowered compared to them. I WOULD BE FINE with this, as long as a PLD could still take a hit better than a WAR, it's what makes the PLD a PLD, having superior defense.

Right now, you are first place in the backwards cycling world championship.

FYI you can buy items on par with ak gear from the market for like 3k each. Just a tip.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

My take-away from this is, clearly the Devs are better at using Warriors, most likely because they aren't trying to use them like a PLD, and as far as they are concerned, they are a good class.

I tend to agree, I think all the whining about not being able to Main Tank coils is pointless because none of them have the level appropriate gear that they SHOULD have before even stepping foot into it. Once Crystal Tower is added and they have the appropriate gear, you'll see them MTing coils. They also have said that it is more difficult to be a good WAR, so "showing off" is if you're a WAR AND good, as an unskilled player will most likely not be a very good WAR.

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CT is a tier up... you shouldn't need better get to get into a lower tier raid.

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Originally Posted by Faction

I really hope this happens. If it does, I will spam the forums about how PLD is fine even though I know otherwise and tell you all how infallible Yoshi-P is. See how you like it.

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Reducing yourself to the level of the naysayers does not become you. Besides, there's plenty of us in the PLD ranks that want to see WARs get buffs/overhauls/redesigns. An unbalanced tank pool is a bad thing, and it needs to be sorted ASAp to prevent permanent and stupid labels.

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Originally Posted by Faction

After spending the entire thread talking about how WAR is perfectly fine and saying that it's all "strengths and weaknesses," white items paladin comes out and backtracks entirely. Surprise surprise!

It's really weird that you suddenly have "no problem with buffs" when according to you, WAR and PAL are perfectly balanced! It's just STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES!

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Either you're intentionally misinterpreting Sephirah's arguments, or your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired.

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Originally Posted by Sudboyz

CT is a tier up... you shouldn't need better get to get into a lower tier raid.

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CT is not a tier up, it was intended to be released with 2.0. The progression is supposed to be Primals>Crystal Tower>Coils.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

PLD couldn't parry with Shields equipped

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This touches on the subject of mitigation imbalance (not saying that Warriors are supposed to mitigate as much). We know there is a severe imbalance between the two classes, what if PLD couldn't parry, and Warriors can't block? That would level that out instead of PLD parry+block and WAR just parry. They could tweak the numbers afterwards to the desired effects. IMO, this would reduce a variable between the two classes making them easier to balance. Thoughts?

Like Logic4u said.. Shut up and stop yelling and whining at each other! Christ! Anyway I feel like these comment from Yoshi means he knows the problem and will address it.. Which I hope he does and just makes us even out with paladins.

I wonder if it would be plausible to have it set to where HP gained through self-heals in excess of the HP pool would add to a shield or something of the like. That way instead of needing a means of mitigating incoming damage spikes, Paladins would deflect some of that damage and Warriors would just absorb it.

As it is, Warriors have many tools available but none of them serve as a strong enough mechanic to equate to a Paladin's ability to "take a hit" which seems to be the concept thrown around a lot. If there is balance, without a healer both tanks should die at the exact same point in a fight.

Personally, last I checked, both jobs are tanks and a tank's role is to take a hit. True they're designed to take that hit differently, which is great, but one mitigates that hit with a much more noticeable degree and that is what matters to healers. So, please stop the "better at taking a hit" nonsense. If one is better then the two are not balanced. They should equally take that hit and recover or mitigate the damage through different means.

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Originally Posted by Sudboyz

This touches on the subject of mitigation imbalance (not saying that Warriors are supposed to mitigate as much). We know there is a severe imbalance between the two classes, what if PLD couldn't parry, and Warriors can't block? That would level that out instead of PLD parry+block and WAR just parry. They could tweak the numbers afterwards to the desired effects. IMO, this would reduce a variable between the two classes making them easier to balance. Thoughts?

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Right now a PLD eat about 2.2k damage from Titan HM's Mountain Buster, a WAR eats about 4.5k. So, taking this oversimplified example of 1 attack as comparison where WAR takes 2x damage of PLD, in order to keep WAR the way they are now with no mitigation and PLD with all mitigation, the WAR needs about 2x HP of PLD and also healing potency on WAR must be 2x of PLD. So if your average PLD has 5k HP at endgame, WAR needs about 10k HP. Cure II which heals for 1.1k on PLD should heal for 2.2k on WAR.

In reality, right now WAR has about 7k HP and Cure II heals for about 1.3k.

Do you see the problem here if WAR is going to continue to be a tank without mitigation? The buff to our HP pool and incoming healing potency must be DRAMATICALLY INCREASED for us to be equivalent to PLD. I just don't see Squenix spamming HP and healing potency at us and calling it a day, that's just lazy game balancing. I mean sure if they do that I'll be happy as a clam and I'll go and tank Titan HM and Bahamut's Coil but I still don't think that's quite what they had in mind originally with WAR.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

CT is not a tier up, it was intended to be released with 2.0. The progression is supposed to be Primals>Crystal Tower>Coils.

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Regardless, there is an issue if 1 tank can tank with gear x, but another cannot with the equivalent tier.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Right now a PLD eat about 2.2k damage from Titan HM's Mountain Buster, a WAR eats about 4.5k. So, taking this oversimplified example of 1 attack as comparison where WAR takes 2x damage of PLD, in order to keep WAR the way they are now with no mitigation and PLD with all mitigation, the WAR needs about 2x HP of PLD and also healing potency on WAR must be 2x of PLD. So if your average PLD has 5k HP at endgame, WAR needs about 10k HP. Cure II which heals for 1.1k on PLD should heal for 2.2k on WAR.

In reality, right now WAR has about 7k HP and Cure II heals for about 1.3k.

Do you see the problem here if WAR is going to continue to be a tank without mitigation? The buff to our HP pool and incoming healing potency must be DRAMATICALLY INCREASED for us to be equivalent to PLD. I just don't see Squenix spamming HP and healing potency at us and calling it a day, that's just lazy game balancing. I mean sure if they do that I'll be happy as a clam and I'll go and tank Titan HM and Bahamut's Coil but I still don't think that's quite what they had in mind originally with WAR.

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They don't need to dramatically increase WAR HP and incoming heals. They just need to change a few skills so WARs actually have a couple of "oh shit" cooldowns. Our best "oh shit" cooldown is Thrill of Battle, but I'd still trade that in for an untraited Rampart anyday of the week.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Right now a PLD eat about 2.2k damage from Titan HM's Mountain Buster, a WAR eats about 4.5k. So, taking this oversimplified example of 1 attack as comparison where WAR takes 2x damage of PLD, in order to keep WAR the way they are now with no mitigation and PLD with all mitigation, the WAR needs about 2x HP of PLD and also healing potency on WAR must be 2x of PLD. So if your average PLD has 5k HP at endgame, WAR needs about 10k HP. Cure II which heals for 1.1k on PLD should heal for 2.2k on WAR.

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I was more getting at the fact giving warriors parry and paladins block for avoidance stats would make balancing that aspect much easier, and tweaking the numbers after the change would adjust for any issues of removing parry from PLD would make.

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Originally Posted by Guammasa

I wonder if it would be plausible to have it set to where HP gained through self-heals in excess of the HP pool would add to a shield or something of the like.

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You mean a Stoneskin/Cureskin or a temporarily boost your max HP for any excess amount?

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Originally Posted by Guammasa

I wonder if it would be plausible to have it set to where HP gained through self-heals in excess of the HP pool would add to a shield or something of the like. That way instead of needing a means of mitigating incoming damage spikes, Paladins would deflect some of that damage and Warriors would just absorb it.

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I like this idea, especially when warriors' self-heals are reactive while paladins' mitigation is inherent

Yoshi's words mean he is going to nerf the Paladin duh.
"You gotta bring up War"
No son, dey gon bring Paladin Down.

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Originally Posted by Illya

I want to ask Yoshi what WAR is supposed to do for Titan HM then. Go as DPS just for that fight, since it's literally 10 million times easier to tank Titan HM as a PLD?
I don't want to be PLD to tank.

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bring an extra healer and quit relying on DF for titan. You don't need 2 tanks, so the extra slot can be for a healer. Sorry but its hard for any tank, this isn't wow where you can go in with shit gear and faceroll through content (amen to that). Get the appropriate gear and try it out (as well as your party)

The exaggerated Warrior hate and complaining is really annoying.

Killed titan several times with a warrior tank in the group, got to turn 4 with a warrior/paladin tanking......wait wut, why is it warriors are bad again? Definitely seem to take more dmg than paladins but unless the healers are literally carrying our warrior I'm hardly able to see why it is they're so terrible when we are only a single turn behind guilds that are higher on progression. If i'm missing something then please show me what it is, because unless turn 4 is so drastically different then hey we will probably end up doing it with that same warrior. Don't try and tell me "oh but they can't tank juggernauts", well guess that's a paladins job then while the warrior is on add duty because last I checked you need both a juggernaut tank and an add tank, can't beat the fight without an add tank anyway so he would hardly be getting carried by the rest of the group.

Warriros can Tank 1 juggernaut or a knight and soldier just fine.

Its when the warrior has to tank 2 juggernauts or 2 sets of knight and soldiers that there becomes a problem, a problem that's easily overcome as a paladin.

If you keep the warrior as an Off-tank, then yeah Turn 4 can be done by a warrior but its 50-100 times easier with a paladin.

Twintania is also easier with a paladin, since they can cycle through their mitigation cooldowns to eat death sentences with.

The point is though why bring a warrior who's a bigger burden on healers then the paladin?

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Originally Posted by Wahzam

The point is though why bring a warrior who's a bigger burden on healers then the paladin?

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Guess it's one of those proving that it can be done and someone not wanting to feel forced to switch classes type of things. I've seen too many videos or posts from people that think the only way to do something is with a cookie cutter group and the moment the setup changes things get too hard to handle. Kinda like why bring less than 2-3 bards when there's no negative to bringing that many even though from what I've personally seen atleast skilled summoners can blow away them even if they don't have the toolkit bards do. It will remain to be seen how hard turn 4 is for my group since other than derping around we haven't given it a real shot but nothing seemed like it would prove to be too much just because we have a warrior in the group.

No flames but this is how i feel.. Paladin will be always the MT for various of dungeons. And when paladin is down, the warrior will be the sub tank. I feel that WAR is on 50/50 on being a tank & dps where PLD is fully focusing on tanking.

I feel that for WAR do fine with normal 4man run dungeons but when come to any 8man dungeons, it will be advisable to have 1 MT and ST as when things go haywire, we at least got 1 tank to hold off any bosses/mobs..

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Originally Posted by Eylev

I feel that WAR is on 50/50 on being a tank & dps where PLD is fully focusing on tanking.

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Except that WAR doesn't do more damage than PLD. It's a myth that's been propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Except that WAR doesn't do more damage than PLD. It's a myth that's been propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about.

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By judging on different base class's skills from MRD and GLA i think WAR definitely have more DPS than a PLD. Also, why SE will want to have a warrior welding a 2hand weapon have lesser damage than a paladin who is welding a 1hand sword and a shield?

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Originally Posted by Eylev

By judging on different base class's skills from MRD and GLA i think WAR definitely have more DPS than a PLD. Also, why SE will want to have a warrior welding a 2hand weapon have lesser damage than a paladin who is welding a 1hand sword and a shield?

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PLDs were given huge buffs to their single-target damage between beta phases because the devs want them to be on par. The WAR was given buffs to their survivability between beta phases, too, for the same reasons. Its just that the survivability buffs to the WAR wasn't good enough.

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Originally Posted by Eylev

By judging on different base class's skills from MRD and GLA i think WAR definitely have more DPS than a PLD.

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And what exactly are you looking at? Maim? Berserk? Fracture? If that's all, you're ignoring a crapload.

Yes, early on, MAR is going to have higher damage than a GLA, but that's only because of Maim. As soon as you hit PLD, that advantage instantly vanishes: Sword Oath adds a *lot* of additional damage and Defiance applies a bigger damage penalty than Sword Oath. Furthermore, Fracture is a *tiny* increase in end DPS for a WAR while not really providing a real advantage in enmity generation. Berserk also happens to add only slightly more than half as much damage as Fight or Flight, thanks to the much shorter duration and Pacification effect. PLD also gets a lot of additional damage per GCD from Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn that just so happen to be off GCD: if they're used properly, they'll provide roughly 16% of total damage output. Ignoring those 2 is ignoring a *crapton* of damage output.

As I said before, WAR doesn't do more damage than a PLD. It's a myth propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about. You just proved that.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Based on what we know and what they're saying, it sounds like another case of the Warrior class scaling better with equipment and thus needing copious amounts of gear before they come good.

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I really want someone to point out how WAR could *possibly* be a class that scales with gear better than a PLD. DMG is *rapidly* outpaced by incoming damage as a tank, especially at the end game where half of your gear no longer has Strength on it and barely anything has Determination. Even then, WAR and PLD use the same exact gear so there would have to be some reason that WAR somehow gets more out of its gear than PLD does, which makes no sense as far as I can see because there's nothing that WAR get that is more gear dependent than what a PLD gets beyond the self heals which are entirely damage dependent. There isn't even anything like a flat increase to a percentage based gear dependent mitigation mechanism that would actually behave as such.

I keep seeing people saying that, somehow, WAR will be a class that blooms late when it has awesome gear but, if you've got even the *slightly* clue about the mechanics/math, it makes no sense whatsoever to claim such. The only reason that people have to make that claim is that they believe that SE is somehow incapable of error and that its current performance is intended rather than in error. It's a delusion that, for some reason, SE is absolutely perfect. WAR isn't going to magically get better because they planned it that well. The only way WAR is going to get better is if the devs fix the numbers.

Every time I see someone say that WAR is going to get better than PLD when we get better gear, I have to facepalm. Until I actually see some math or analysis that actually supports the claim (everything I've done indicates that it's actually going to scale *worse* with gear because, as stated before, incoming damage scales faster than outgoing damage), I will continue to do so. Considering the evidence we've got, it makes *absolutely no sense*.