Are Monks weakest DPS?

To the individual who said to stop including your DoTs in your rotation, didn't provide any proof to backup their claims, and vaguely invoked a group that parsed their damage during beta: please don't spread false information.

I'm almost L50 and once Demolish, ToD, and Fracture are applied, I get a tick of 90-105 damage per 3 second. That's huge since a perfect upkeep of all these DoTs (30 seconds / 3 sec_ticks = 10 ticks; 90 -105 x 10 = 900 - 1,050 Potency right there) adds tremendously to our DPS. Imagine you just crit the target with a Bootshine for 267, a tick of 100 damage+ would render that to 367 damage.

As it currently stands, I don't think MNKs are the weakest DPS in the game. I just downloaded a parser from http://www.ffxivapp.com and the preliminary results at L48 indicate that pretty much all classes are equal in terms of DPS.

The only time my DPS was through the roof was in Dzaemeal Darkhold on the second boss who is rather static and against whom I was able to carry out a full 3-stacks GL rotation for a good minute.

I'll wait until 50 to provide my parses as non-L50 parses are kind of subjective.

The only thing that makes me think that ranged has an inherent advantage over melee is that they can get into combat much faster than we can and no other classes is dependent on a 12-second buff to dish out their optimal DPS.

Came top in our FC titan hard mode grp today, nothing special, dropped stacks many times due to fight mechanics, My friend said I was roughly @ 174DPS or so, with the bard, 2 smn and blm being between 120 and 156.

This didn't count DOTs, was using Fracture,TOD,Demolition during fight, not 100% uptime tho. Just got my relic+1 wewt!

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Well that odd I ran Amdapor Keep with no dots. I did 20 more DPS then when I used dots (on last boss) according to FFXIVLog Parser. This parser does register dots....

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NO PARSER RECORDS DoTs PROPERLY.

NONE OF THEM.

Stop saying this.

DoTs(damage) are NOT in the combat log. Ever.

EVER.

You can't parse what isn't there.

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Originally Posted by Spythe

How much are Summoners dots ticking for? I keep hearing they are terrible DPS but I think it may be how the numbers display instead of just being flat out bad.

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Roughly 350, not including crits or Raging Strikes, every 3s from Miasma+Bio+Thunder+BioII+Shadow Flare. This is with an Ifrit weapon.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

NO PARSER RECORDS DoTs PROPERLY.

NONE OF THEM.

Stop saying this.

DoTs(damage) are NOT in the combat log. Ever.

EVER.

You can't parse what isn't there.


Roughly 350, not including crits or Raging Strikes, every 3s from Miasma+Bio+Thunder+BioII+Shadow Flare. This is with an Ifrit weapon.

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I jsut used touch of death once to see if the tick works, and it did count the ticks.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

I jsut used touch of death once to see if the tick works, and it did count the ticks.

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It will have the initial hit, but none of the tics.

This is the combat log in-game, not the parser.

The parser can't parse what isn't there. Edit: Again, as I've said multiple times, it runs a simulation.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It will have the initial hit, but none of the tics.

This is the combat log in-game, not the parser.

The parser can't parse what isn't there. Edit: Again, as I've said multiple times, it runs a simulation.

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I'm pretty sure touch of death does not do 300 damage initial hit..

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

I'm pretty sure touch of death does not do 300 damage initial hit..

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I'm pretty sure that 300 damage was no where in the combat log and thus can't be parsed accurately.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

I'm pretty sure that 300 damage was no where in the combat log and thus can't be parsed accurately.

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Then how did parser read 300 damage on touch of death if it used it only once?

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Then how did parser read 300 damage on touch of death if it used it only once?

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Did you not read above?

It runs a simulation.

I think if you want to get an estimated reading of Summoner DPS from the parser, take the DoT damage from Thunder and Miasma listed for the Summoner and double it, since the DoT potency on Thunder and Miasma are the same as Bio 1 and Bio 2, respectfully.

Won't work on AoE fights, but for single target it should be pretty close, assuming the Summoner's uptime for all four DoTs is very close.

i just partied with a mnk. hardly noticed his dmg. dungeon fail! mnk seriously needs some power boost and a ranged energy attack.

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Originally Posted by Venom

i just partied with a mnk. hardly noticed his dmg. dungeon fail! mnk seriously needs some power boost and a ranged energy attack.

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Most of the parsers out now don't count accurate DOT damage which is a huge part of a monk's dps. Plus you could have just had a bad monk who doesn't know his rotation or when he has to move to back or flank.

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Originally Posted by Venom

i just partied with a mnk. hardly noticed his dmg. dungeon fail! mnk seriously needs some power boost and a ranged energy attack.

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Or the monk you grouped with was inexperienced/misinformed :)

Not trying to be rude, but I've seen a lot of monk players that don't make use of the positional bonus to their attacks, so they just stand there attacking from behind the entire time.

I'm only level 16 as my Pugilist but this is my theory craft since I have only done 2 dungeons under my belt take what I say with a grain of salt. To me it seems MNK's rotation and positioning is a lot like Feral Druid in WoW. in Wow in order to maximize my dmg as a Feral Druid I had to combo to keep Savage Fury up, keep dots up, and stay behind enemies and shred. I think just like the WoW Feral Druids, MNK's will be very reliable boss killers, but on trash mobs with longs pulls etc where MNK's cannot reliably get to the side or behind their targets their dps is going to suffer tremendously. I also think MNK needs a buff because my common sense tells me Pugilist outperforms MNK.

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Originally Posted by Rochedalaix

I also think MNK needs a buff because my common sense tells me Pugilist outperforms MNK.

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You're only 16 and you already calling for Monk buffs? That is pretty comical. A lot of the Job abilities are lackluster for most classes not just Monks. I've seen people complain about ARN to SUM, ARC to BRD, THM to BLM, LNC to DRG so that is pretty much the norm. You're right on how the Monk plays but being behind the target only effects one Monk move really, then Impulsive Drive which is great for trash or you have a good BRD. The other buff you get from True Strike is almost worth not doing 5% crit is pretty laughable when you can do ID. It easier to move around on trash with a solid tank than a boss since their mechanics normally make them turn or move.

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Originally Posted by Spythe

You're only 16 and you already calling for Monk buffs? That is pretty comical. A lot of the Job abilities are lackluster for most classes not just Monks. I've seen people complain about ARN to SUM, ARC to BRD, THM to BLM, LNC to DRG so that is pretty much the norm. You're right on how the Monk plays but being behind the target only effects one Monk move really, then Impulsive Drive which is great for trash or you have a good BRD. The other buff you get from True Strike is almost worth not doing 5% crit is pretty laughable when you can do ID. It easier to move around on trash with a solid tank than a boss since their mechanics normally make them turn or move.

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I actually do use Impulsive drive on trash, when I was talking about positioning I was talking more about Twin Snakes, and Snap Punch pretty sure there is no reason to keep true strike on the bar after getting twin snakes. Just because the job abilities for other classes are bad doesn't mean MNK does not need a buff, it just means the other classes job abilities need buffs too.

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Originally Posted by Rochedalaix

I actually do use Impulsive drive on trash, when I was talking about positioning I was talking more about Twin Snakes, and Snap Punch. Just because the job abilities for other classes are bad doesn't mean MNK does not need a buff, it just means the other classes job abilities need buffs too.

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Or its working as intended. Rockbreaker is amazing for AOE and can be very useful for trash with a good tank. Shoulder Tackle is solid just a gap closer but imo should have a lower cooldown like 30s since Monks don't have any ranged abilities. Fists of Fire is a Fire is a free 5% damage increase. One Ilm Punch is the only ability in the game that can dispel from a target. Dragon Kick makes it so makes can stay at the flank an entire fight and not lose that much damage. I can see how all these abilities are underwhelming.... Once again you're 16 get some levels before you start criticizing a job.

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Originally Posted by Salaster

Summoner : Summoner have slightly better dps than Monks if your pet doesn't die.

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Proof please

The problem with monk soloing is that the skills require positioning to do their full dps and it makes it seem like they do low dps but actually their dps is good. Even the dudes in the coil of bahamut says that dragoon and monk dps is really close together considering how hard core they are I think they know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Aicasia

If you demand an example, then WoW would be one. Every expansion post-TBC actually. And if we aren't allowed to list things that launch with minimal or no endgame content all you're really left with is WoW.

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Because post-TBC WoW is release right? Looks like I'm done here.

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Originally Posted by CursedCoffee

snip

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Please show link to spreadsheet.

The more I test the more it seems true, like Touch of death does 300 damage over 30 seconds. Considering all other skills do more damage I think its better not wasting a GCD for the skill...

To all of you who think MNK is bad dps, you need to actually play with one who has a solid rotation. Also you need to take into consideration that it depends on the encounter as well as some aren't as melee friendly as others so that may skew the numbers. For example, with full Darklight gear and Garuda claws I am easily doing over 200 in most battles while SMN/BLM are in the 180's consistently.

If a MNK has Blood 4 Blood up whenever possible and properly rotates, no one is coming close.

171 DPS on ifrit HM without using touch of death/demolish/fracture. I dont have blood for blood yet

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

The more I test the more it seems true, like Touch of death does 300 damage over 30 seconds. Considering all other skills do more damage I think its better not wasting a GCD for the skill...

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The only weakness of Touch of Death is that the DoT doesn't benefit from the Dragon Kick debuff.

Let's compare your strongest combo skill to ToD:
Snap Punch from Flank with Dragon Kick debuff: 198 Potency
Touch of Death: 272 Potency (the initial hit does get the boost from DK)

Even with the Dragon Kick thing factored in, Touch of Death is still over 37% stronger than Snap Punch. That's quite a damage difference. Of course, this assumes the damage is going to sustain itself over the entire 30 second duration. When Ifrit uses Hellfire, he's invincible, so the DoT ticks will be largely wasted. Also it's not worth using on the Fetters because those should (in theory) die well under 30 seconds from when you start beating on them.

So yeah, ToD is awesome, use it. :D

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

171 DPS on ifrit HM without using touch of death/demolish/fracture. I dont have blood for blood yet

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May I ask what your skill rotation is? I'm only getting close to that dps, though I think that my rotation is bad. I use Perfect Balance -> 3x Snap Punch into Dragonkick -> Twin Snakes -> Snap Punch, Bootshine -> True Strike -> Snap Punch weaving in ToD in between ;c

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Originally Posted by Rilr

May I ask what your skill rotation is? I'm only getting close to that dps, though I think that my rotation is bad. I use Perfect Balance -> 3x Snap Punch into Dragonkick -> Twin Snakes -> Snap Punch, Bootshine -> True Strike -> Snap Punch weaving in ToD in between ;c

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If you're starting with Perfect Balance I'd think the better thing would be start on Demolish to apply DoT from the start and get first stack of GL up Snap some more, then Dragon, Twin, Snap, ToD (if you didn't do it after Perfect Balance wore off), Bootshine, True, Demolish, Fracture, Dragon, Twin, Snap, go from there. Just a thought--I haven't really tested a rotation with Fracture yet.

I personally have just been using this rotation, as it allows for damage buff to never fall off and keeping your dots up:

ToD > BS > TwS > Demo > BS > TrS > SP > BS > TwS > SP > BS > TrS > Demo > BS > TwS > SP > BS > TrS > SP > ToD

And on top of that you can throw in your instants/Non-Global CD's. Personally, this is just my idea because I can count abilities very well and it's great because if you mess up you can easily "reset" by doing BS > TwS > Demo and ToD.
Of course you need to be aware of positions, make sure you are either on the side or back for the abilities to get the bonus damage/crit %.

PS: I wrote this before I was 50 so I am still unsure of when to throw in DK but I honestly think DK is a quick way to get 3 stacks of GL.

Personal Opinion: Monk's are fun. REALLY fun. Probably the most fun I have had since a Blademaster back in DAoC when I was soloing Purples in Darkness Falls. Mmm.

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Originally Posted by Apoc1216

PS: I wrote this before I was 50 so I am still unsure of when to throw in DK but I honestly think DK is a quick way to get 3 stacks of GL.

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Uh, what? Dragon Kick doesn't give you GL. It's a form-neutral attack that gets a bonus when used after the third form (that is, while in opo-opo just like Bootshine). If you're going to use Perfect Balance you want to use 3rd form skills first to get GL up ASAP then transition into "normal" 3-step combos starting with DK to get the blunt resistance debuff on the target. If you don't have Perfect Balance available, your positioning determines whether DK or Bootshine is your better opener (DK if you can flank, Bootshine if you can't). In theory, I think, until proven otherwise by parses, you want to use Dragon Kick every time the debuff falls off the target (in multiple MNK party, 1 MNK can be designated to focus on keeping it up allowing the other(s) to Bootshine more often for better group DPS), which will mean about every other rotation (about 6 seconds per rotation at 50 with 3 stacks of GL and a bit of skill speed gear).

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

Uh, what? Dragon Kick doesn't give you GL.

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Sorry I read my post and it was confusing. I got confused on DK putting you in Couerl form instead of Raptor. My bad!

Also, do you see the debuff from DK fall off after one attack? Maybe it's just me but I can't seem to find it the attack directly after DK.

My personal experience in Farming Ifrit, and lv 50 DGs... when fighting boss i am always the top DPS or the second top when there is a Bard on the same Party... i dun know nothing about parses and stuff i am talking about real exp.

But wht makes the diference in beeing the top or the last dps in the scale?

- Equips (dpsing side by side with ppl with ilvl higher than u will cause your dps to be left behind)
- Positioning (Monk rely too much in positioning, if you dont know how to take advantage of that u wont be a good dpser)
- GL (you you gotta work miracles lol, but thats why playing monk is so fun, cause we are cool, we are kung fu pros and we are not easy-mode-on-class)
- Work your stuff right (if u want to kick asses just use perfect balance at the start of the battle and hit 2 times for a gl3 and keep it that should help the starting DPS sometimes makes all of the diference, and some times if you take to much time starting dpsing, you wont be abble to cacht up other ppl).

Monk is definitely the weakest DPS. Not pure DPS point of view but in over all. Monk need close fight but with light armer.Monk is very easy to die compare with dragoon and other ranged class. monk can't roll plate armor but all melee class can roll need on monk armor. Last night I got a lvl50 dragoon roll need on leather armor. I don't recommend any one play monk. It is hard and has no advantage compare with other class at moment. When pull mob,monk is also slow. So you are pretty much watch other grab the mob you like to kill. I will switch to other class later. Pug actually may do more Dmg than monk since pug can use archer skill.

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Originally Posted by Apoc1216

Sorry I read my post and it was confusing. I got confused on DK putting you in Couerl form instead of Raptor. My bad!

Also, do you see the debuff from DK fall off after one attack? Maybe it's just me but I can't seem to find it the attack directly after DK.

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The debuff from DK lasts 15 seconds, so you have time for two Bootshine rotations before you need to reapply DK on your third rotation. I recommend you put your target bar near near your hotbars if you haven't already done that so you can have an easier time keeping an eye on enemy debuffs (for example, not on my monk, but something like this)

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

The debuff from DK lasts 15 seconds, so you have time for two Bootshine rotations before you need to reapply DK on your third rotation. I recommend you put your target bar near near your hotbars if you haven't already done that so you can have an easier time keeping an eye on enemy debuffs (for example, not on my monk, but something like this)

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Thanks! I have already done that, it's probably just my eyes going bad.

Don't start your rotation with DoTs as DoTs are effected by Twin Snakes 10% damage boost and your first stack of GL (7% increased damage).

Rotation at L50:

Charge > Perfect Balance > Demolish (GL Stack #1) > Snap Punch (GL Stack #2) > Snap Punch (GL Stack #3) > Twin Snakes (10% DMG Increase) > Dragon Kick (10% Blunt Damage Increase) > Snap Punch (Opo-Opo Form) > Bootshine (Guaranteed Crit) > Twin Snakes (Refresh 10% DMG Increase) > Demolish > Touch of Death > Fracture > Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Dragon Kick (Refresh 10% DMG Blunt) > True Strike > Snap Punch > Continue rotation by cycling Dragon Kick/Bootshine as your combo starters.

The goal, ultimately, is to keep up your DoTs and you 3 stacks of GL. Even if you mess up your rotation while maintaining your 3 stacks of GL and having at least 2 DoTs, your auto-attack damage along with your DoTs and the abilities you're cycling with a 1.98 - 2.06 GCD should enable you to climb to the DPS spot #2 depending on how static the boss is.

I think MNK is a good class overall. However, we need either a reduction on the CD of our Charge skill or 1 more ability that's a gap closer.

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Originally Posted by roflcaust

Charge > Perfect Balance > Demolish (GL Stack #1) > Snap Punch (GL Stack #2) > Snap Punch (GL Stack #3) > Twin Snakes (10% DMG Increase) > Dragon Kick (10% Blunt Damage Increase) > Snap Punch (Opo-Opo Form) > Bootshine (Guaranteed Crit) > Twin Snakes (Refresh 10% DMG Increase) > Demolish > Touch of Death > Fracture > Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Dragon Kick (Refresh 10% DMG Blunt) > True Strike > Snap Punch > Continue rotation by cycling Dragon Kick/Bootshine as your combo starters.

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Using DK after Twin Snakes won't give the target the debuff so you wouldn't want to use it after Twin Snakes because that would restart your stance and then you couldn't use Snap Punch where you have it. This rotation won't work past the first 4 skills the way you have it listed.

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Originally Posted by Apoc1216

Thanks! I have already done that, it's probably just my eyes going bad.

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It's not just you , mine will randomly fall off very early (3-4 seconds after its applied) doesn't always happen. No clue what causes it, if I use it soloing it can do it as well so it isn't some other debug overwriting it.

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

Using DK after Twin Snakes won't give the target the debuff so you wouldn't want to use it after Twin Snakes because that would restart your stance and then you couldn't use Snap Punch where you have it. This rotation won't work past the first 4 skills the way you have it listed.

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I just hit 50 yesterday and didn't get much time to test Perfect Balance/DK. Looksl ike you need to be in Opo-Opo form for that. So replace with DK since SP gives you Opo-Opo form, then you can do:

Charge > Perfect Balance > Demolish (GL Stack #1) > Snap Punch (GL Stack #2) > Snap Punch (GL Stack #3) > DK > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Bootshine (Guaranteed Crit) > Twin Snakes (Refresh 10% DMG Increase) > Demolish > Touch of Death > Fracture > Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Dragon Kick (Refresh 10% DMG Blunt) > True Strike > Snap Punch > Continue rotation by cycling Dragon Kick/Bootshine as your combo starters.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Monk is definitely the weakest DPS. Not pure DPS point of view but in over all. Monk need close fight but with light armer.Monk is very easy to die compare with dragoon and other ranged class.

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This is why everyone talking about DSP and rotations should be posting in the Monk Temple thread. With a title like this one you're gonna get people shining in just to bash Monk DPS without any solid evidence. One of his reasons why Monks are bad is because its "hard" LOL. I been talking about the use of Impulsive Drive in your rotation and starting to think it may not be that useful on boss fights. It seems like constantly moving your chain is more effective and helps keep GL up.

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Originally Posted by Spythe

This is why everyone talking about DSP and rotations should be posting in the Monk Temple thread. With a title like this one you're gonna get people shining in just to bash Monk DPS without any solid evidence. One of his reasons why Monks are bad is because its "hard" LOL. I been talking about the use of Impulsive Drive in your rotation and starting to think it may not be that useful on boss fights. It seems like constantly moving your chain is more effective and helps keep GL up.

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Lol Dragoon are squishier then monks, while they have the lower dps.

They still have their job. Burst DPS on adds, something monk cannot do or black mage

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Lol Dragoon are squishier then monks, while they have the lower dps.

They still have their job. Burst DPS on adds, something monk cannot do or black mage

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I don't know about squishier but every class has their rolls in raids, I find it funny how soooo early into a new game the only thing people seem to care about is raw DPS numbers which normally means nothing unless you're wiping to an enrage or not downing a boss quick enough or running out of mana.