New Job System Incoming!!! - But what does this mean??

You mean Gladiator's Cover? Yeah.

Like i said 2 two before it should be like this

I level up pugilist to 50

I can unlock "Job" A or B "So unlock Job A" I level it from 1-75" then i went back to my pugilist and got that 75. Now i feel like level up job "B" level that up from 1-75. You Pugilist would be 50 but you just unlock class "A or B" which start at level 1.

I really don't want to see this Pugilist unlock "Job A & B" and there both level 50. No it should be level 1 you just unlock the job. if you want to stay as puglist just go back to it and level it 50-75 but if you want to level a job you need to start from 1.

hooray for dangled carrots.

>_> so heated already. Anybody pop over to the jp threads to see how they're taking it?

My hope is that the Job system is inserted into the class system, and that different classes have different jobs open to them. Like you said with a tree system, using points to focus your skills and thus have a job.

My hope is that people can see our job, and our job defines our role within the part. Tank, DD, Healer, Buffer, de-buffer. That is what I'm most interesting in seeing.

But whatever they do, I know they've put a lot of thought into it, so I'm interested in what comes. :)

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

That isn't true. the Terminology is older then MMO's. so is the "Trinity" though in FF's its never been a true trinity. Its always a Mix of 6 roles.

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The terminology is older than MMOs because it was present in MUDS, that are nothing else than an early incarnation of MMOs. It has never been applied to offline games simply because roles (as you yourself stated in more words) are much more elastic there.

That's why you can't apply most single player concepts to MMORPGs. Roles are less elastic and depend only on a single player's will. You can make almost any character a "tank" in a single player game, and be content with it regardless of efficency, because the only thing dependant on that decision is your own enjoyment.
Roles in MMORPG are subject to quite a lot more restrictions, as stricter balance come in play.

But no worries, I can amend my statement if it makes you happy. Dark Knights have never been tanks in Final Fantasy MMORPGs.

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Originally Posted by GabbaGabba

i think the job system is going to replace the physical rank system somehow. i think they should take more emphasis off class rank and move it more towards your job rank so that way everything cons to ur job level and having high class ranks just makes it easier to kill things around your job level.

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Very well said.

Right now the Phys level is more or less a stat bonus to your weapon class. Basically a job system could improve this already existing system by adding abilities, traits and tradeoffs associated to each given job.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

But no worries, I can amend my statement if it makes you happy. Dark Knights have never been tanks in Final Fantasy MMORPGs.

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Still technically wrong (at least when put against Paladins), unless you didn't care about efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

You mean Gladiator's Cover? Yeah.

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Gladiator does learn Cover in XIV, But it was the best choice for it because its the only DOW that has access to a shield at the current time. It should have been part of Sentinel.

But in other games like FF7 it made your character it was equipped too move in front of another character and take their hit for them. Same in FF6, FF8, FF9, etc.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Like i said 2 two before it should be like this

I level up pugilist to 50

I can unlock "Job" A or B "So unlock Job A" I level it from 1-75" then i went back to my pugilist and got that 75. Now i feel like level up job "B" level that up from 1-75. You Pugilist would be 50 but you just unlock class "A or B" which start at level 1.

I really don't want to see this Pugilist unlock "Job A & B" and there both level 50. No it should be level 1 you just unlock the job. if you want to stay as puglist just go back to it and level it 50-75 but if you want to level a job you need to start from 1.

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You're describing it like jobs were just more classes. They quite evidently are not.

What you're describing is an endless grind that would alienate a ton of people from the game.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Like i said 2 two before it should be like this

I level up pugilist to 50

I can unlock "Job" A or B "So unlock Job A" I level it from 1-75" then i went back to my pugilist and got that 75. Now i feel like level up job "B" level that up from 1-75. You Pugilist would be 50 but you just unlock class "A or B" which start at level 1.

I really don't want to see this Pugilist unlock "Job A & B" and there both level 50. No it should be level 1 you just unlock the job. if you want to stay as puglist just go back to it and level it 50-75 but if you want to level a job you need to start from 1.

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Of course, who said that?
There are a few threads about job/title systems you should go read (and understand) them

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Gladiator does learn Cover in XIV, But it was the best choice for it because its the only DOW that has access to a shield at the current time. It should have been part of Sentinel.

But in other games like FF7 it made your character it was equipped too move in front of another character and take their hit for them. Same in FF6, FF8, FF9, etc.

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You don't need a shield to take the hit for someone else, mind you.

I loved the letter, and I love the psuedo announcement of adding jobs.

I can agree with card that we have weapon classes right now, not jobs, it can be looked that that way. However, I don't like thinking about it like that because that means weapon ranks determines everything. My hp, mp, damage output, accuracy, defense, evasion, everything. Yes, I get to place my own stats, which is somewhat useless, but what happens when I put these new jobs on? I am an archer, and I can equip dragoon or ranger or corsair or beastmaster or dark knight or paladin or blue mage... It doesn't really matter.

It's far more comforting to me to look at it as if I leveled up archer, which is limited to a bow. I have zero problem with only one weapon being available per job/class. With an affinity system, each job will gear towards the class that is most closely aligned with it, thus, 90% of the time will only be using that one weapon. So it doesnt bother me that they took the guestwork out of it.

Im still a fan of getting rid of physical levels in the sense they are now... Making, for example, Great Sword an equipable gladiator weapon, get rid of daggers on Gla... Then once you hit the magic number, you can do unlock quests for 2 jobs (Drk and Pld), so now when you equip a GS, instead of just a GLA, you are a (let's say) 20 Drk (Basically a 20 GLA, maybe add in a Drk specific skill (2HRish?)) and use Gla as your physical level, the way they are now... Get to 35 drk w/ 30 Gla physical (Physical levels slower), and put on a sword and shield... You're now a 20Pld/30Gla. Skills could be handled the way Card thought up/the way they are now... Affinity system, and a few job specific skills. Gla, Drk, and Pld all earn skills at certain levels that could define the affinities...

This is all useless information with a lot of ...'s, because the decision has already been made and is being developed. I just thought I'd throw what I was hoping for out there. I have faith in Yoshi and SE!

Ok so with more thought heres what my ideal system would be

Jobs: You DO NOT level them seperately

Lets take Thm and Conj for example as what you can do.


At rank 1(in either) You unlock "Black Mage", and "White Mage", depending on which job you use, your get bonus's and penalties in the specialties of them.
At rank 20, you unlock "red mage" doing this allows you to get bonus's in everything, but not as high as if you stayed as a black or white mage job(you still have the option to switch at will)
At 50 you unlock X job(dont wanna think something up) which will have its own specializations too

The basic idea is not giving you something else to grind on, but by choosing your "job" you are on that job, for that class while you do things.

So you may see Pugs going around as Monks, or Martial Artists, or whatever else they add
A Gladiator may be a warrior or a Paladin
Marauder can also be a warrior, or dark knight

etc etc

its a system that could compliment whats in place without destroying whats in place

As a drk I definitely tanked, depended on the mob, and it was only in merit parties and from lvl 15-25, but it could be done. And I'm back to ignoring people just trying to pick fights and being excited again.

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Originally Posted by solracht

Still technically wrong (at least when put against Paladins), unless you didn't care about efficiency.

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Not really. There's nothing technically wrong in that, as Dark Knights have absolutely no skill that defines them as tanks in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

But in other games like FF7 it made your character it was equipped too move in front of another character and take their hit for them. Same in FF6, FF8, FF9, etc.

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Yes brilliant. Discuss its effect and who should obtain it in an MMO by comparing it to offline games that didn't have class systems.

Dumbest argument ever. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You're describing it like jobs were just more classes. They quite evidently are not.

What you're describing is an endless grind that would alienate a ton of people from the game.

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Dude you joking right? so you want a dumbass tree system? or a job that you can unlock and be the same level as your class as soon you unlock it? the point of games is to grind then to do endgame i'm sorry but if you can't put yourself to grind then you should not be playing MMO. In FFXI you had 18 class and all the one you unlock where level 1 not level 30.

I'm going to wait and see with he does but if he make it into a wow tree system then it just going to be the same game as wow matter how hard you try to change the system. I hoping he going with the unlock a job within your own job and level it up. if you want to go back to Pug which is level 50 and get that 75 then you can you don't need to level up a job if you don't want too.

let's just wait for more info at this point there really noting to go by.

It probably means they're going to scale up the size of the class names, to make them more prominent in menus and such.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not really. There's nothing technically wrong in that, as Dark Knights have absolutely no skill that defines them as tanks in FFXI.

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Being able to tank better doesn't count then?

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Dude you joking right? so you want a dumbass tree system? or a job that you can unlock and be the same level as your class as soon you unlock it? the point of games is to grind then to do endgame i'm sorry but if you can't put yourself to grind then you should not be playing MMO. In FFXI you had 18 class and all the one you unlock where level 1 not level 30.

I'm going to wait and see with he does but if he make it into a wow tree system then it just going to be the same game as wow matter how hard you try to change the system. I hoping he going with the unlock a job within your own job and level it up. if you want to go back to Pug which is level 50 and get that 75 then you can you don't need to level up a job if you don't want too.

let's just wait for more info at this point there really noting to go by.

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Hey man go read carpe's job thread, jobs on top of spec's and see if that is something you would like. Posting in here isn't doing you any favors, nobody's on your side right now because these arguements have already been fleshed out. The dev tag is 1033.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Dude you joking right? so you want a dumbass tree system? or a job that you can unlock and be the same level as your class as soon you unlock it? the point of games is to grind then to do endgame i'm sorry but if you can't put yourself to grind then you should not be playing MMO. In FFXI you had 18 class and all the one you unlock where level 1 not level 30.

I'm going to wait and see with he does but if he make it into a wow tree system then it just going to be the same game as wow matter how hard you try to change the system. I hoping he going with the unlock a job within your own job and level it up. if you want to go back to Pug which is level 50 and get that 75 then you can you don't need to level up a job if you don't want too.

let's just wait for more info at this point there really noting to go by.

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You've essentially added more classes to the game and fixed NOTHING with the current ones. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Yes brilliant. Discuss its effect and who should obtain it in an MMO by comparing it to offline games that didn't have class systems.

Dumbest argument ever. Seriously.

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I discussed how the effect worked in other games to prove that the single player FF's had a Tanking Mechanic.... You are just trying to put words in my mouth and cause a fight.

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Originally Posted by solracht

Being able to tank better doesn't count then?

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Considering that Dark Knights have never been able to tank better than paladins in FFXI, it counts.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Considering that Dark Knights have never been able to tank better than paladins in FFXI, it counts.

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The fact that you played the game wrong does not make it any less true.

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Originally Posted by solracht

The fact that you played the game wrong does not make it any less true.

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Just lol. Yeah, me and basically everyone else it seems. In FFXI a DRK that introduced himself as a tank would be laughed at and sent back to the mog house to get that two hander while the group looked for a PLD or NIN.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Dude you joking right? so you want a dumbass tree system? or a job that you can unlock and be the same level as your class as soon you unlock it? the point of games is to grind then to do endgame i'm sorry but if you can't put yourself to grind then you should not be playing MMO. In FFXI you had 18 class and all the one you unlock where level 1 not level 30.

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Again, you're advicating nothing else than a massive grind. I *already* grinded plenty.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

You've essentially added more classes to the game and fixed NOTHING with the current ones. Congratulations.

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The class are the base

Class--> Jobs i can see where this could have problems but starting back from 1 could piss a lot of players. but what if a lot of players like the class? and you making them switch to a job at 50?

Conj rank 50 now you have to become a whm or a blm what if i want to be both? unlock sch? and be level 50? i guess that be ok as long as they make it so when your 50 you feel like your level 1 but your still 50 but learning your way up.

i wont made if you start from 1 or 50 as long as they don't pick the tree base system.

@Abriael so did i :) this is my 3reset i Level up Pug x2 times to level 40+ starting over and waiting for the new system so it make me feel that am playing a new game.

A title system that has no major level grinding system is simple enough and requires no overbalancing in the long run because the bonuses it gave would be based on the skills you equipped which you would still learn from the weapons.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Just lol. Yeah, me and basically everyone else it seems. In FFXI a DRK that presented himself as a tank would be laughed at and sent back to the mog house to get that two hander.

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Endgame. The paladin that presented himself to the team would be sent back to his mog house to change jobs (not necesarily to DRK) if their group cared about efficiency and low-manning.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

The class are the base

Class--> Jobs i can see where this could have problems but starting back from 1 could piss a lot of players. but what if a lot of players like the class? and you making them switch to a job at 50?

Conj rank 50 now you have to become a whm or a blm what if i want to be both? unlock sch? and be level 50? i guess that be ok as long as they make it so when your 50 you feel like your level 1 but your still 50 but learning your way up.

i wont made if you start from 1 or 50 as long as they don't pick the tree base system.

@Abriael so did i :) this is my 3reset i Level up Pug x2 times to level 40+ starting over and waiting for the new system so it make me feel that am playing a new game.

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You are Mixing the two systems as if a Pug Becomes a Monk which is most likely now how the system will work instead it is most likely going to work like the Subjob system from previous FF's where your Main Identifier is your Weapon Class, and your Sub Identifier is your Job Title. So a Pugilist/Monk. Only thing you'd be raising levels on would be Pugilist. Monk would never go up or down and instead dictate the bonuses you got for the skills you had equipped and how effective they were. Each skill having an Affinity to a certain Job Title.

Not that I want to get involved in that other discussion but I think you guys are both overlooking the thing that made it overpowered/viable/etc.

Ninja sub.

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Originally Posted by solracht

Endgame. The paladin that presented himself to the team would be sent back to his mog house to change jobs if their group cared about efficiency and low-manning.

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Oh really? I never had any problem of the sort. Maybe becayse i was a good tank and in most cases I didn't even need the utsusemi explot in order to be more efficent than most others?

Going around as a ninja with a cheesy armor a tank doesn't make.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Not that I want to get involved in that other discussion but I think you guys are both overlooking the thing that made it overpowered/viable/etc.

Ninja sub.

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Shhh, he may realize he's getting trolled.

*cough* I mean, paladin needed ninja sub to tank too anyways. Bad argument.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Oh really? I never had any problem of the sort. Maybe becayse i was a good tank?

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I've tanked as a White Mage in FFXI multiple times, Both in and out of Bones Parties.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Oh really? I never had any problem of the sort. Maybe becayse i was a good tank and in most cases I didn't even need the utsusemi explot in order to be more efficent than most others?

Going around as a ninja with a cheesy armor a tank doesn't make.

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Holy shit lol. I was about to let this drop, but I have to keep on going now.

It's not a matter of arguing or opinion. Defense was useless in that game. You got hit like a truck and there was nothing you could do about it besides casting shadows.

Hopefully not "talent trees" that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by solracht

Shhh, he may realize he's getting trolled.

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At least you admit it.

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*cough* I mean, paladin needed ninja sub to tank too anyways. Bad argument.

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"need" is a big, big word my friend.

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Originally Posted by solracht

It's not a matter of arguing or opinion. Defense was useless in that game. You got hit like a truck and there was nothing you could do about it besides casting shadows.

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So you say :D
The cases in which I needed utsusemi were extremely limited. Ninja sub (which was nothing else than a legalized exploit, and one of the main flaws of FFXI) doesn't make your main class a tank if it's not a tank to begin with. Otherwise everyone could be defined a tank.

I don't agree that a gladiator is a "sword user" and an archer is a "bow user", regardless of what the translations say or what those words "mean". My job is an archer, and I am limited to bows. The level of my job determines my skills and hp and mp and def and eva and acc and everything else that makes you able to hold your own in a higher setting. In a literal sense, how well I use a bow should have nothing to do with my hp. I don't want to feel like I'm leveling up weapons. That doesn't feel like FF to me. I want to level up jobs, and use weapons, whether I am limited in my weapon selection or i have every weapon available. It just doesn't feel right.

probably got mentioned but "weapon type" doesnt really mean anything even now, a weapon has a class aligned to it and your class is defined by the one stated on the weapon, you can use two-handed staffs or wand/clubs on both conjurer and thaumaturge, its just the class is decided by what they choose for that weapon, even if both weapons are of identical type.

But i agree it is most likely a topper system, so you pick a class and then you can have any weapon on it. like XI.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Hopefully not "talent trees" that's for sure.

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Please god I hope not, Talent Trees would not be necessary in a Armoury/Job System.