PLD Bonus Stats

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Originally Posted by Kryzen

100% vitality. With our already insane mitigation makes our HP pool scale very very well. Also higher HP = stronger stoneskin. The little amount of damage/threat someone would gain from going 100% strength is so piss poor when compared to a DPS class out put. There would be only a handful of times that any points into strength would result in you having aggro over them.

dex in beta forums was calculated to be crap but i am not sure if they changed it since then.

just my 2 cents.

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I don't mean to rejoin this thread, but to stay consistent...

Say no to Stoneskin!!!!!!!!!!

:)

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Originally Posted by Kryzen

The little amount of damage/threat someone would gain from going 100% strength is so piss poor when compared to a DPS class out put. There would be only a handful of times that any points into strength would result in you having aggro over them.

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Remember that our "extra enmity" abilities grant multiplicative bonuses (x2 or x3), so each point matters more to Tanks than DDs as far as enmity generation. You're not trying to match a DD's damage, just their threat.

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Originally Posted by LunarRei

I don't mean to rejoin this thread, but to stay consistent...

Say no to Stoneskin!!!!!!!!!!

:)

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I'm not disagreeing, it certainly seems wasteful to throw that much MP on a tank who will lose it almost as soon as it's cast, but what about dropping it on squishy melee DDs to protect from AoEs? Does it have a duration or does it last until consumed?

So far, I went Vit and I have no problem stealing threat and maintaining it in dungeons. We have so many threat generating abilities that it's crazy. Plus I don't have to worry about TP or MP as much since I use both to manage threat control. I'm only level 30 though but I'll keep updating.

I love the Gladiator in this much more than in 1.0.
And i will probably go for both maybe 7/3 with Vit ahead.

lots of good info in this thread, but I think SE has us running around in circles trying to min/max when it really doesnt matter. str and vit contributes to different styles of tanking i think...

however, being a noob lvl 30 gladiator (and not even a paladin yet), i went 100% strength for the lvling process and will reassess when the time comes

up to this point, i have found my tarutaru hp pool to be sufficient, and my deaths were not due to being 1 shotted (heck, there werent even that many mobs in FF11 that could 1shot my tarutaru hp pool - and our hp pool was seriously nerfed back then), and while the str may only add tiny nearly nonexistent damage, it does add to overall damage. i actually think we have all the damage mitigation we need... rampart and convalescence one after another should be able to keep us up through any massive rush of damage...

who knows... on with the theory crafters and launch those excel spreadsheets! =)

For myself at the moment, being a Roe and leaving me with such a small Dex pool I played around with Bulwarks and Tower Shields.

The tower shield had a significant reduction in damage but looking at my Shield Swipe Icon never procing was annoying, considering is almost (to me) considered a second bash. I've experienced bosses standing there for 5 seconds doing nothing because I revoked their ability to weapon skill.

So Ive been sticking with round bulwarks to compensate for the immense shield block chance difference. I get at least 1 block per 2-3 attacks while being targeted by 1 monster.

Ive dumped 13 points into STR to compensate the loss of block amount from tower shields, and 4 points into Dex to assist with my rate. I did not spec into STR for threat issues. Keeping threat is simple. I honestly see a huge difference in my crit damage

So far, combined with the cavalier set from Longstop, I rarely get scratched in pulls of 3/4.

Judging from the http://i.imgur.com/YNwUMd9.png , I would strongly agree that VIT would be the way to go. But I have noticed a difference between my block rate doing what I have been doing.

If that chart indicates 89 STR for 2% more blocked dmg then im staying VIT ^_^

I do kinda laugh when people say more dmg = more threat....while this maybe the case for "other games". 30 STR is not going increase you dmg so much that it is going to make a difference in your emnity gain. Emnity comes more from skills in this game not from DMG done.

Do you really think hitting a mob for say 200 DMG (instead of 180 or even 150 say) is gonna make much of a difference to emnity from dmg, when a BLM hits a mob for 350-400 consistantly? I think not.....your skill useage is whats gonna keep them bashing on you and not your team.

If ur having issues with threat/emnity, have a word with your team and get them to hold back a few secs and not nuke off the bat like "other game(s)" and you will be fine ^_^

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Originally Posted by Sigmorn

I do kinda laugh when people say more dmg = more threat....while this maybe the case for "other games". 30 STR is not going increase you dmg so much that it is going to make a difference in your emnity gain. Emnity comes more from skills in this game not from DMG done.

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Almost all enmity is strength-based in some form. Most is directly damage-based (some multiplier on top of damage dealt) and Flash is some function of strength and weapon damage but is not damage-based. Only the small spikes from buffs/debuffs and healing enmity are not damage-based. So yeah, you get just as much enmity from STR as you do damage. The real problem is that enmity isn't exactly hard to come by and it doesn't decay, so if you have a lead, you're never losing it, and if you need to catch up with another tank, nothing will do it except Provoke.

//EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

This is actually a question that needs to be asked. Take Savage Blade, in a combo. It has a potency of 200, and has "Increased Enmity". Now obviously increasing strength and the quality of your weapon will increase the damage it does, but how does that "increased enmity" truly work? [...] Does anyone know the exact calculation?

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It's damage-based multiplier. Multiplier is level-based as well, but at level 50, Phase 3 caps were 3x on Savage Blade and Skull Sunder; 4x on Shield Lob, Tomahawk, and Overpower; and 5x on Rage of Halone and Butcher's Block.

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Originally Posted by Sigmorn

Emnity comes more from skills in this game not from DMG done.

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This is actually a question that needs to be asked. Take Savage Blade, in a combo. It has a potency of 200, and has "Increased Enmity". Now obviously increasing strength and the quality of your weapon will increase the damage it does, but how does that "increased enmity" truly work?

Is it a FLAT amount of threat added onto the attack, or does it multiply the damage done into threat? Eg, a basic hit for 200 damage from any class does 200 enmity. If you hit with a savage blade for 200, it does 200 enmity for the damage and then perhaps 400 bonus enmity (making it the same as hitting for 600)? OR... does it do 200 damage multiplied by 3 (for example), so by increasing its damage to 210 it would 630 enmity and not (210+400).

In the first way, increasing your damage makes minimal threat difference. In the second your threat will be a direct scaling of it. Does anyone know the exact calculation?

I've been stacking VIT..

Haven't had any issues with threat as yet, though, only lvl 31

See what happens from now!

VIT or MND

STR is useless. If you want STR level Warrior.

MND is beneficial because Paladins have MP and what good is it doing by not being utilized?

We have a 120 sec recast with 20 sec of 30% more healing, subjectively a hate producing tool.

With roughly 200 MND you should be able to cure for 400 or more, not counting criticals and abilities.

DPS of Paladin is pretty bad, Sprits Within is on a 30 second timer and TP better be spent on Shield Swipe, Shield Bash. Rage of Halone Combo cost 7 sec GCD, and against HNM you use Shield Oath.

Mitigation is very good with certain shields and a high base defense, but certain HNM AoE can not be blocked, or even stunned.

When tanking with multiple Paladins, a method needs to be devised to create hate.

Physick/Cure is my answer. With materia alone you can already benefit from wearing meldable armor.

A serious build with +30 MND in Skill provides a revised method of hate production.

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Originally Posted by Rajah

VIT or MND

When tanking with multiple Paladins, a method needs to be devised to create hate.

Physick/Cure is my answer. With materia alone you can already benefit from wearing meldable armor.

A serious build with +30 MND in Skill provides a revised method of hate production.

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Unlike in XI where curing as PLD was extremely effective, in XIV cure enmity is really, really low when compared to your Halone combo. Really, really, low.

I assure you, spending a fight spamming your MND buffed cure and Riot Blade to try and maintain your MP will not generate enough enmity to tank effectively and you won't be supplementing your parties damage at all.

Personally, I went with 30 VIT which, with full AF and HQ crafted/stonewall accessories boosted my HP by about 450 (guesstimating here, away from home), or just over 10%. I imagine STR can also be effective and there's no clear winner out of the two... for now.

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Originally Posted by Rajah

MND

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Sorry but you do not belong in a theorycraft discussion if you think MND is even a remotely viable way to do anything lmao. PLD heals are complete garbage. You can put 30 MND from your points and materia in all MND and guess what ... it's still garbage. Don't feed people wrong information because you think it's the way to go ... it's not and never will be. As of right now there is no reason for PLD to even have CNJ to pull from except to raise a bad healer in a 4 man ...

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Originally Posted by Rajah

We have a 120 sec recast with 20 sec of 30% more healing, subjectively a hate producing tool.

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Heals generate crap threat. I think its something like 1 flash = 5 cures. MND is a horrible choice.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

Sorry but you do not belong in a theorycraft discussion if you think MND is even a remotely viable way to do anything lmao.

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Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and most likely wrong about MND being an effective enmity tool, what he is offering is exactly what theorycrafting is all about. It's not about giving the best answer the first time, it's about wood shedding ideas and putting them to the test.

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Originally Posted by ViktorShtrum

Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and most likely wrong about MND being an effective enmity tool, what he is offering is exactly what theorycrafting is all about. It's not about giving the best answer the first time, it's about wood shedding ideas and putting them to the test.

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You're right it's about finding the best ways. That being said MND was never even in the category of being looked at it's so far down the list. My point was that this is why we end up with bad tanks. People come to forums and chat for help and the trolls feed them this. If he wasn't trying to troll then my apologies and you should look at some theory crafting (just google it not hard to find). If they end up changing things to make MND more attractive I maybe able to get on board with it since it makes sense and imo is what it should be but currently it is no where even close. Here's some numbers for you:

200 point Cure = 100 emnity (about what you get around level 40 maybe a little higher on the cure but its .5 emnity per point healed)
100 dmg Savage Blade @40 = 600 emnity

Now you could argue that "Cure puts emnity on all targets in combat" and you would be right. So let's look at Cure vs Flash @ 50

Flash @50 = 1100 emnity on everything it hits
Cure @50 is around 400 = 200 emnity

Source of theory crafting: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=231

So unless you can push your MND to the point of a WHM and be able to spam Cure's with our limited mp pool then for tanking it is never a viable alternative. For the same GCD you spend on that Cure you are at best gimping yourself about 500 emnity. In terms of aiding your healer it is in fact a good supplement but that is only if you can take the threat loss. In pugs this maybe possible but I for one know in FC groups my dps are always on my a$$ in threat so losing the emnity isn't a viable option.

Simple really

No one has done Crystal Tower to my knowledge, or Bahamut's Instance.

400-1000 Cure is evidently waaay more powerful than you give it credit for. If I can cure 1/4 of my own HP in ONE cure, that is extremely powerful.

It is not about spamming cure, it's about getting use of the meager MP pool. Of course there's a dropoff point in using an ability over and over, but this is NOT about wasting a cure.

No, this about effective cures that take 2 seconds to make.

Sure you could get +400 HP, but it won't do anything in the long run, besides give your healers breathing room. How about 500-1000 heals for breathing room.

Flash is something you do when you can't shield swipe, when you can't shield bash, when your timer for provoke is down, when you have too much MP, facing one target.

Facing multiple targets yes it will get attention. By following up with a CURE as half a dozen mobs truck you, YOU can recover that lost hate and health with a fat cure.

Never did I say to stack piety and -spell cast. I'm talking about 50-100% MND materia and high defense gear.

Sentinel's Cuirass anyone?

Here's why STR is useless to PLD. All hate comes from abilities and spirits within (think shield oath). The only method of abstaining this is not dealing damage, it is mitigating AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

WHO SIAD RIOT BLADE

YALL ARE A RIOT SERIOUSLY

I feel bad for anyone that has to group with you...

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Originally Posted by Rajah

-snip-

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You have to be trying to troll ... there is no other explanation.

400 HP is 1/10th of an AF gear PLD @50. Once you start getting the better gear it goes even farther down. Even if you MND stacked on materia and bonus points you still wouldn't get to heal 1/4th your hp. And you would be seriously gimping yourself in the process.

You should seriously just reroll a healer ...

The overall amount of healing you get from stats is quite pathetic. That came from my FC main healer.

Perhaps I'm doing something "wrong" but I would like to see 400 HP cures; mine do 200. They definitely don't do 1000.

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Originally Posted by Rajah

Flash is something you do when you can't shield swipe, when you can't shield bash, when your timer for provoke is down, when you have too much MP, facing one target.

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And I see it now. My Provoke timer is rarely down; it rarely gets used. That's probably because I'm not busy curing myself for feeble amounts of HP, and instead I'm busy on keeping enmity.

Bad troll is just that.

Update so far:

Putting every bonus stat point into STR is working out very well for me.

1. My threat is phenomenal. On a single target, nobody will ever tear it away from me. I can afk a third of the way through a fight on a standard dungeon mob and it will be dead before it turns from me. I can easily hold aggro on 2 enemies while each DD is focusing a different one.

2. My Block Strength is great. Every once in a while I'll see a dungeon boss hit me for 0 on a block (don't know how often it happens, but it does).

3. My damage is surprisingly good. I will never, ever compete with a DD, but that's obvious and as it should be. Still, I contribute far more than people usual give tanks credit for. In the final boss of Sunken Temple, if my SMN managed to get within the sealed squares he would struggle, and often fail, to kill off the Mithral Virge in time, whereas I could kill them with ease every time.

Hey I've been reading in some sites that Dex helps increase block rate chance, is this true and would you suggest putting some bonus stat points in it?

Hey all, not to Hijack the thread off of the STR vs VIT debate but since I can't create threads yet this one seem the right place to do it.

Before p4 and these newer forums I remembered reading somewhere that the amount of enmity generated by weapon skills and actions that paladins use is increased with higher mind. I can't seem to find the thread I found the information in and I have no idea how things have changed. So, I would appreciate a reply from people who have messed with this or know whether mind effects any pld spells other than curing and stoneskin as well as whether or not it effects enmity generation or amount of enmity.

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by ZenBear

Update so far:

Putting every bonus stat point into STR is working out very well for me.

1. My threat is phenomenal. On a single target, nobody will ever tear it away from me. I can afk a third of the way through a fight on a standard dungeon mob and it will be dead before it turns from me. I can easily hold aggro on 2 enemies while each DD is focusing a different one.

2. My Block Strength is great. Every once in a while I'll see a dungeon boss hit me for 0 on a block (don't know how often it happens, but it does).

3. My damage is surprisingly good. I will never, ever compete with a DD, but that's obvious and as it should be. Still, I contribute far more than people usual give tanks credit for. In the final boss of Sunken Temple, if my SMN managed to get within the sealed squares he would struggle, and often fail, to kill off the Mithral Virge in time, whereas I could kill them with ease every time.

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Doing the same with full vit xD

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Originally Posted by Isten

...enmity generated by weapon skills and actions that paladins use is increased with higher mind. So, I would appreciate a reply from people who have messed with this or know whether mind effects any pld spells other than curing and stoneskin as well as whether or not it effects enmity generation or amount of enmity.

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Right now MND is very lack-luster for tanking. It increases your Cure a little bit, but at the moment there are no swords with high MATK which means you won't be throwing out any heal that is very substantial. From what I've seen/read it does not affect your enmity at all, other than your cure being stronger as I already mentioned, but again without MATK swords it's too low to be worth it at this time. Unfortunate because part of being a PLD traditionally is their use of White Magic, but at this time the main stats you wanna focus on are VIT and STR.

ah, kinda a shame. I was talking to some of the pld's I've come across IG and they say the same as you Seph - that right now the only spell PLD use that MND has any bearing on is Cure. I sorta hope it changes, as right now I feel like it would give more variety in the style of tanking one would do. But I guess if something isn't broken, no need to fix it, right?

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Devilair

Doing the same with full vit xD

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I'm glad to hear it! :) Being that bonus stat points are the only form of customization I hope it makes a difference, but being full capable of tanking should be the standard and not the exclusive trait of the "correct build". So VIT or STR, the only difference ought to be preference.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Right now MND is very lack-luster for tanking.
...
Unfortunate because part of being a PLD traditionally is their use of White Magic, but at this time the main stats you wanna focus on are VIT and STR.

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Same as Isten, I'm sad MND doesn't play more of a factor. :/ I like the idea of a tank that used his head as much as his body, and I hope they add a MND modifier to being a PLD at some point (perhaps as level cap increases), but STR/VIT makes sense and I've no qualms with splitting between only 2 stats. :P

I have been full STR since P3 and have never looked back.

I prefer full VIT. Things don't always go as planned and the extra HP at level 50 has been the difference between a wipe and a return enough times to be worth it.

Full str. You get way more HP than you need for anything from gear alone, and high end tanking gear has very little in the way of aggro stats. If that extra tiny bit of VIT ever comes into play beyond the retarded amount you get from gear already there is something going far more wrong in your group than where you put your bonus stats...

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Full str. You get way more HP than you need for anything from gear alone, and high end tanking gear has very little in the way of aggro stats. If that extra tiny bit of VIT ever comes into play beyond the retarded amount you get from gear already there is something going far more wrong in your group than where you put your bonus stats...

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I echo this. I am running full STR and having no trouble tanking hard mode Garuda atm. I have yet to find an encounter where the lack of 30 VIT impedes my ability to tank it.

I think paladins should take 30 vit, and it isn't close. Especially single target, holding aggro is a joke. If you are having issues holding aggro, the small dps boost from 30 str won't save you. The mitigation it provides is also small, as at most, 30 str will only move you up one tier on the block/parry chart, giving another 1% on parries and shield blocks.

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=227

More health, however, is always a good thing. Since paladins have lower health than wars, I think it is imperative that they get as much vit as they can from gear. Paladins have cd's for days, so there is less need to eke out a little more defense at the cost of health. From what little endgame content I've done (cleared hm ifrit, a few attempts on garuda, lvl 50 dungeons), bosses will hit hard enough for a high health buffer to be needed, especially on paladins who start with 25% less health than wars.

Ok, I'm back. Can't take it anymore.

Nobody should just dump their 30 points into any stat, even after weightings. Why? Because stat weights don't tell you where you are right now.

After materia and gear, if you are 10 STR away from the next tier of block dmg reduction % or whatever, then spend 10 of your 30 in STR. If you need 35, then VIT it is... unless your DEX is close enough for the next tier. Materia and bonus points should be allocated together and with some thought and both can be redone if new gear arrives and adjustments need to be made.

PLD : VIT
WAR: 1:1 STR and VIT

We need to remember just how much damage is done non-physically, which is most likely the majority of big hit boss damage, that can't be blocked or parried; which means STR is not a good mitigating factor. WAR is an exception since its heals correlate to its damage and WAR's being able to drop defiance to help DPS when used as an off tank, with no adds up of course. PLD is designed around pure survivability and currently has no problems holding hate off DPS. Logically, and from experience, in the current case VIT is best for PLD. They are there to survive through mitigation and a larger health pool is a form of mitigation in it's own right. PLD's might be less self sufficient, but they work as a team player, as long as they team stands strong, so shall they and vice versa. Let's also be honest here, WAR's have nowhere near the amount of mitigation, or timely mitigation as PLD. Timely meaning that PLD's can spend their cooldowns whenever, there are limitations on when WAR can use its mitigating factors. These limitations are the subtle differences that really show the strengths and weaknesses of each job.

We need to play to a job's strength to make them better at what they do, there is no better tank just different tanks made for different things.

I dont think min maxing is the solution. We get 30 points bonus max, correct? Maybe like a 8:2 vit:str ratio is best, depending on how much str is required to see a % increase in block reduction. No tank should ever even consider str for dps hate generation, that comes from our enmity generating skills. Str for pal/gla is for block reduce %.

Ah, this thread has definitely given me something to think about, think i may scroll and redistribute my stats more into vit. I wasn't aware str had such diminishing returns. Maybe something like 5 str and 25vit, or maybe just full on vit. Will have to experiment.

Read thru everything. Sounds like VIT or STR doesn't matter; they're both negligible. 1. Seeing as how the parry/block tiers require so much STR, you would have to spec gear and materia to pull any bang out of STR. 2. VIT would help you live thru something that can blast you for 4K HP or more. Wondering if any endgame bosses have that kind of an attack.... but the extra HP is minimal compared to what gear/materia gives. Most HP i've seen from a darklight geared Curtana PLD full VIT spec'ed is 4500 - 5k. Do PLD's get more HP than that?

Unless we get more levels or the tiers change for block/parry; sounds like Stat points are pretty cosmetic and the most bang for your buck is just VIT. But ultimately, can always respec if future patches change something.

Kinda feel dumb that I was going a 2:1:1 ratio for VIT/STR/DEX. =/ bugger.. I want those 8 stat points back i spent! lol

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Originally Posted by MBTL90

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=227

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Interesting data. It has certainly made me favor the idea of switching to VIT as I am gaining absolutely nothing from my 30 STR.

Main thing killing tanks or having problems with bosses for tanks is the lack of hp to survive the big hits. 30 points in vit just does more no matter what since these are static.. you gear changes and with that you need for those "3 points in dex for next tier" was just voided.
All in all the big tank killer.. is huge magic damage. That makes vit for these pitiful 30 points far better. At end game you get more then 30 vit on a lot of armor.