Alpha First Look: Video 5 - Quests and Combat

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Originally Posted by Hestern_Nestern

I don't usually like "kill x amount of creature" quests but what is different about ARR's approach seems to be, speaking only of this video, the level of heart within each ordinarily meaningless request. And like Sieg said - you are forced to read the dialogue and so you care more about what you are doing. That's important.

My soul twitched a little when the Miqo'te explained why we had to kill those slugs. <3

I obviously don't have enough information to go on but I'll say this much is true: I hope each time I am given a quest I will be made to care. So even if it is a quest type I am not ordinarily interested in, at least my soul will be there to recognize compassion. <3

...Sorry for the abysmal structure of my response. @_@

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Don't get your hopes up.

Nice, no more having to locate quest stuff via that diary. I love how it shows the damage you parry... Quest stuff looks pretty clean overall. Not sure about combat, yet... Looks like we will be more active now, but hard to judge from this.

And just skimming over some of the responses... Quests are usually pretty "cookie cutter," or whatever you want to call them. Welcome to MMOs. Also realize you're looking at only two low level quests that clearly aren't even balanced yet (15 mage having a hard time with a level 4 quest, 15 melee taking decent damage on a level 10 quest).

I know I'm expecting too much of you people, but relax a little. I guess now that we get to see the combat video you've been dieing to see, you have to figure a way to complain about it.

Honestly the questing didn't seem that much different than 1.0, I remember pulling up a map to find the location of where to go next. This is just making it easier to access without going through the extra menus. As for new battle system doesn't look that impressive to me but I'm not gonna dis on it until I've had a chance to at least try it.

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Originally Posted by Talshara_Blade

Cutscenes really get me more involved ....and then I end up doing quests with people that want me to skip CS just to get to the god damn fight or whatever and that makes me want to kick puppies.

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thats why i love being WHM... what was that? heal? ohh sorry im still watching CS


But anyways.. how is this different from 1.0 ? ... same quests..just easier to follow

I'd like to remind people that the main scenario quests have not been implemented into Alpha.

Also, the red targeting rings are visible in order for players to do positional combos.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

lol did you not watch the video? the player was higher level than the mobs, and these are progression quests, they aren't supposed to be the hardest.

I'm sure the quests you do when you're approaching level 50 will not be so easy.

Every quest in every mmo is in some way or another going to fit into a particular archetype. Ive seen people laud the quest system of this game and that game but it's not very different. Do you really want longwinded, complicated quests for leveling up at level 10, when you probably could have leveled up faster by ignoring the quest altogether and just grinding? I'd still take a simple kill-the-target-monsters quest over mashing monsters with no purpose or reason other than to get XP.

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lol i know that what i meant is that they made it easy in the way that show you what to kill where it is mostly they show u step by step and i dont like that

Make's feel good that am a legacy member ^_^

I'm loving the pace of the UI shown! LOOKS SO SILKY SMOOTH~!

People that keep going on about "cookie cutter" quests are going to need to pony up some seriously sweet examples of which MMO's don't do this as part of the game structure or quickly zip it. Not trying to white knight this thing, but your responses are based on 3 mins of video showing a higher level character doing low level fetch quests. Kind of a soggy cardboard soap box your standing on if you ask me......Its ok, I can wait while you look up all those examples you must keep drawing from.......

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Originally Posted by Majoga

Honestly the questing didn't seem that much different than 1.0, I remember pulling up a map to find the location of where to go next. This is just making it easier to access without going through the extra menus. As for new battle system doesn't look that impressive to me but I'm not gonna dis on it until I've had a chance to at least try it.

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I think people are bent on taking 10 minutes to read quest text and then an hour or two to trying to figure out what the quest is saying, and then another 10 minutes to pull up the wiki.

Did someone just say FFXI had a good quest system??? Super vague quests that dont tell you what youre looking for, or where.... forcing 98% of the game population to look up a wiki, or shout in town for just basic direction.... if you like directionless question with no markers dont look at the map then... go explore to your hearts content...

telling you what area to go to, and what npc to speak with, and what thing to defeat is basic quest structure...
FFXI questing was stupid...

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

-Snip-.

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Thank you for explaining exactly why I dislike this format in the general form almost all MMOs use lol.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

People that keep going on about "cookie cutter" quests are going to need to pony up some seriously sweet examples of which MMO's don't do this as part of the game structure or quickly zip it. Not trying to white knight this thing, but your responses are based on 3 mins of video showing a higher level character doing low level fetch quests. Kind of a soggy cardboard soap box your standing on if you ask me......Its ok, I can wait while you look up all those examples you must keep drawing from.......

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That's exactly the point. They aren't offering anything new but more of the same. Final Fantasy is held at a high standard for storytelling and questing. Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 had complaints about the cookie cutter quests, and now 2.0 will have those x6000 per year. Riveting.

They decided for quantity over quality in the end.

YEEEEEESSS!

I like how the quest's are just right there on your screen and easy to access. In 1.0 in order to find out where you had to go it felt like you had to be constantly opening and closing 4 window tabs. Menu -> journal -> "the quest" -> map..... yeah i hated that every single time. now its just right there and looks so much more strait forward with out huge long paragraphs explaining each quest.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

That's exactly the point. They aren't offering anything new but more of the same. Final Fantasy is held at a high standard for storytelling and questing. Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 had complaints about the cookie cutter quests, and now 2.0 will have those x6000 per year. Riveting.

They decided for quantity over quality in the end.

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I won't argue at all that they are held to a high standard in game design and story telling, but no offense here, virtually ALL of their games have fetch quests identicle to the ones seen in the video. I am failing to see why anyone is suprised they would include these in 2.0.

Besides that, if its so easy to reinvent the wheel here like many of you are suggesting, go ahead and spitball 1 or 2 ways you would rather see this done that no one has ever done before......

Don't get me wrong, I 100% understand what you all are asking for, I just think that conceptually it sounds a LOT easier than it actually is to pull off in a way thats successful, especially since we are talking about a game that already failed trying to take a bunch of risks.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

That's exactly the point.

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I also distinctly remember people saying "This is Final Fantasy, even if we quest grind it will be nothing but high quality storylines and action packed, it won't be like WoW or Tera."

http://i49.tinypic.com/24mgifd.jpg


Anyway, the music I dislike the style of, but it doesn't really fit with general battle given the tonality of it but I can definitely see it moved towards boss fights in starter dungeons. At least it's shaping up very nicely to being a typical MMORPG, now let's see what will set it apart from everyone besides the Final Fantasy name.

FFXI took EQ and ran away with the concept into something unique, let's see if ARR can do this with the "WoW formula" as they say these days.

They say necessity is the mother of invention, so if anyone here is unhappy with the quest procedure, feel free to design your own MMO the way you'd like. I'll come alpha test for you.

Oh man, talk of FF XI "quests" and people saying that those were somehow "better". Like that main story line quest that required me to find a merchant who the NPC said was "Some where in the world". Great...So I can narrow my search now to the world. Fan-freaking-tastic. Or that fly exterminator quest that required a full alliance to earn a 300ish exp scroll reward...

There's a good reason why no MMO cares to copy FF XI's quest design. As for the approach Yoshi-P took for ARR and to the folks upset at it, all I got to say is,http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/u.../sidequest.jpg

As for the video, loved the music, the visuals, a little string in my heart got tugged on when I read about that second quest being to protect the burial site for the victims of the Umbra era. I can't wait to see what other story bits of treasure they have in store for us.

Is the handholding any different than a single player RPG world being designed solely with the intent of guiding a player to the next part of the story? (Ex: The only accessible town in FF3 at the beginning just happens to be the starter town, even though you have a boat to explore with.). The game doesn't necessarily have to tell you where to go, because the developer knows that even if you butt your head into every wall available like an idiot, you'll still end up where you need to be. You're not "set free" until the game has - by virtue of design and story telling - guided you through enough of the game to where you feel comfortable in setting out on your own (IE: obtaining an airship in FF6)

It just can't be the same with MMOs. MMO's are complex beasts from a play design perspective because they have to accommodate for multiple players of all ranges doing all sorts of different things. There are techniques for hinting at where players should be at what level (hostile mobs blocking access to higher level areas), but ultimately in an open world, a new player will get lost when trying to figure out what to do next. First gen MMOs have tried to just let players figure it out for themselves, but it never seems to be enough and it's not a very user-friendly way of doing things. Some players 'enjoy' this. Or rather, they 'enjoy' the status they feel they obtained by roughing it out even though they know it was bad game design (See: FFXI endgame, Legacy Members [like me!], and elite EQ players). The quests offered in modern MMOs are designed to do the same things the story in single player RPGs do: Guide the player from point A to point B until they feel comfortable with the world. At least in ARR, we can expect quests with a good bit of flavor and meaning to them.

Final Fantasy has never been particularly difficult. I don't recall ever throwing my controller at the screen while fighting my way through Balamb Garden in FF8 (though I did smash in the PSOne power button when I lost my Shiva card to some random jack-off in a TripTriad game). You're constantly going from point A to point B killing hordes of random encounters that mean nothing to the story except to make you stronger. How then, is the quest system XIV:ARR is using such a step back for the genre?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

lol did you not watch the video? the player was higher level than the mobs, and these are progression quests, they aren't supposed to be the hardest.

I'm sure the quests you do when you're approaching level 50 will not be so easy.

Every quest in every mmo is in some way or another going to fit into a particular archetype. Ive seen people laud the quest system of this game and that game but it's not very different. Do you really want longwinded, complicated quests for leveling up at level 10, when you probably could have leveled up faster by ignoring the quest altogether and just grinding? I'd still take a simple kill-the-target-monsters quest over mashing monsters with no purpose or reason other than to get XP.

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My god thank you.. Its nice to know that I am not the only one who hates mindless party grinding...

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Originally Posted by pool842

My god thank you.. Its nice to know that I am not the only one who hates mindless party grinding...

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I am just really happy to finally have the option to do either of those things in a FF game instead of being forced to do only one, and thats not even counting the NM hunts. Hurray for choices!!!

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I won't argue at all that they are held to a high standard in game design and story telling, but no offense here, virtually ALL of their games have fetch quests identicle to the ones seen in the video. I am failing to see why anyone is suprised they would include these in 2.0.

Besides that, if its so easy to reinvent the wheel here like many of you are suggesting, go ahead and spitball 1 or 2 ways you would rather see this done that no one has ever done before......

Don't get me wrong, I 100% understand what you all are asking for, I just think that conceptually it sounds a LOT easier than it actually is to pull off in a way thats successful, especially since we are talking about a game that already failed trying to take a bunch of risks.

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Square-Enix doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, but they can at least create a sturdy quality based product rather then churning out hundreds of wobbly unfinished ones. Sending characters on adventures through the world to explore, to undertake grand assignments to better the realm. These are the types of things I want. Fighting 6 chickens, and then 8 goats x1,000 but varied monsters sucks balls. What Square-Enix is doing is just copying off of other MMOs...and lately I haven't seen many successful ones.

You guys are way over simplying the leveling process there is going to be tons to do beyond quests or group grinding... and honestly I like this type of solo content. So please get off your soap box, this model will sell and this model will help people who have never played an mmo learn to play. Mindless maybe, but I can guarantee it will be better mindlessness with a final fantasy flare then any other mmo so don't kid yourself. And I am sure quests will be interesting later on and throughout the process this is Alpha this is a video on basics this is not the whole game... do people even think before they post or do they just trollolol all day?

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Originally Posted by Bittereye

I agree. This version of XIV is terrible. The graphics are fantastic, the environments are stunning but the quests are an insult to gamers. The battle animations are a giant leap backwards as are the spell casting animations and the spells themselves. All weapon skills so far look identical too each other not to mention they happen so fast you dont even know what just happened. I could tell you how every weapon skill looks and functions in 1.0 but this.... this is all forgettable mindless icon spamming..

I didnt play WoW, Rift, SWTOR, GW2 because they all look and play like this game now. I stayed away from all of those titles because they were all clones of WoW; its safe to say this game is too. They want what's popular in the MMO market to make a buck. This is all just mindless fetch quests, mind numbing, time sinking garbage.

Why cant we just have a main story line and progress through that? By the time we get done with our 1 millionth quest of kill 6 of X and 3 of Y, we will have forgotten what the story was even about.

I think current customers that stuck it out for 2+years will leave for good now that this game has morphed into yet another standard MMO. So much for innovation. But hey.. at least the graphics are good huh!?

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Y-yeah guys. FFXI's quests were m-m-much better!

HEY SONNY YOU NEED TO HIT LEVEL 55 NOW FARM THESE SILLY ENEMIES FOR A CERTAIN ITEM.

NOW DO IT AGAIN FOR 60.

NOW 65.

NOW 70.

WANNA GET THAT SUBJOB? COLLECTS THESE THREE ITEMS THAT DROP FROM MOBS.

KILL THIS NM FOR ME.

Yeah, FFXIV's quests are soooooooo unoriginal.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I also distinctly remember people saying "This is Final Fantasy, even if we quest grind it will be nothing but high quality storylines and action packed, it won't be like WoW or Tera."

Anyway, the music I dislike the style of, but it doesn't really fit with general battle given the tonality of it but I can definitely see it moved towards boss fights in starter dungeons. At least it's shaping up very nicely to being a typical MMORPG, now let's see what will set it apart from everyone besides the Final Fantasy name.

FFXI took EQ and ran away with the concept into something unique, let's see if ARR can do this with the "WoW formula" as they say these days.

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It will, but I think it will be harder for you and others, (people who repeat the same points about it being like WoW and "generic"), to see because you will try to forcefully find differences between WoW and ARR down to it's programming code. The difference between XI and EQ is that people didn't even realize the game was a copy due to the fact that XI brought many of it's players in the MMO world. A lot of them hadn't even heard of EQ before then.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Is the handholding any different than a single player RPG world being designed solely with the intent of guiding a player to the next part of the story? (Ex: The only accessible town in FF3 at the beginning just happens to be the starter town, even though you have a boat to explore with.). The game doesn't necessarily have to tell you where to go, because the developer knows that even if you butt your head into every wall available like an idiot, you'll still end up where you need to be. You're not "set free" until the game has - by virtue of design and story telling - guided you through enough of the game to where you feel comfortable in setting out on your own (IE: obtaining an airship in FF6)

It just can't be the same with MMOs. MMO's are complex beasts from a play design perspective because they have to accommodate for multiple players of all ranges doing all sorts of different things. There are techniques for hinting at where players should be at what level (hostile mobs blocking access to higher level areas), but ultimately in an open world, a new player will get lost when trying to figure out what to do next. First gen MMOs have tried to just let players figure it out for themselves, but it never seems to be enough and it's not a very user-friendly way of doing things. Some players 'enjoy' this. Or rather, they 'enjoy' the status they feel they obtained by roughing it out even though they know it was bad game design (See: FFXI endgame, Legacy Members [like me!], and elite EQ players). The quests offered in modern MMOs are designed to do the same things the story in single player RPGs do: Guide the player from point A to point B until they feel comfortable with the world. At least in ARR, we can expect quests with a good bit of flavor and meaning to them.

Final Fantasy has never been particularly difficult. I don't recall ever throwing my controller at the screen while fighting my way through Balamb Garden in FF8 (though I did smash in the PSOne power button when I lost my Shiva card to some random jack-off in a TripTriad game). You're constantly going from point A to point B killing hordes of random encounters that mean nothing to the story except to make you stronger. How then, is the quest system XIV:ARR is using such a step back for the genre?

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You make a great point and it's not a step-backward whatsoever. I think people want just want players to "suffer" in the "difficulty" they did in XI. @_@

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Square-Enix doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, but they can at least create a sturdy quality based one. Sending characters on adventures through the world to explore, to undertake grand assignments to better the realm. These are the types of things I want. Fighting 6 chickens, and then 8 goats x1,000 but varied monsters sucks balls. What Square-Enix is doing is just copying off of other MMOs...and lately I haven't seen many successful ones.

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Because every player has already saved the world 3 times by level 7, and their quest for level 8 is to fight universe-destroying world eaters?

Because you've seen every quest FFXIV:ARR has to offer based on the 2 quests shown in the video?

Are you in Alpha or something? SHOULD WE ALL BE WORRIED?

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

It will, but I think it will be harder for you and others, (people who repeat the same points about it being like WoW and "generic"),

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Yeah, I'm still waiting for an MMO to do the quest progression differently, so far as of today, they all end up exactly. the. same. way.

Deny it as much as you want, you're guaranteed to see the same style quest repeated everywhere you go even if it mixes it up between:

"Kill 10 boars!"
"Go pick 5 vegitables!"
"Roll that rock down the hill!"

You'll repeat these 3 types of quests 100x over every hub you go to. Let's not forget the dungeons that tend to also repeat in objectives unless they're linked to a story, which is very rarely.

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Originally Posted by elreed

Ffxi had good quest system, yeah i know this isnt xi-2 but at least i prefer by far having to read a quest and figure out wheres the spot and wich mobs i have to take care of, instead of this wow cloned quests, i prefer real time events as level progresion, like GW2, i hated all those quest that i had to do in WoW like killing 5 cows for exp,

i think is a bit late for them to change this system, but seriously sometimes getting a game to close to the standars might prevent it to shine by its own, i came back a month ago to XI after 5 years, it changed a lot on how much exp you can do in 1 hour and im glad to say the hard time i been having completing my nation missions trying not to read too much on wiki, on level im high level now but i must say that i might do just 2 or 3 things per night, but everything that i accomplish feels a lot rewarding, imo MMO's should be games for the long run, so whats the problem of taking the time to do your stuff, i think thats the main issue with new MMO's btw the population is still average for an old game, good games die hard

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Is it just me did any of you make is past level 7 on GW2? I thought the leveling in that game was boring as hell... I much prefer wow quest/dungeon leveling to GW2 leveling. On the other hand the GW2 events which 14 will have will be badass really excited for that.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Because every player has already saved the world 3 times by level 7, and their quest for level 8 is to fight universe-destroying world eaters?

Because you've seen every quest FFXIV:ARR has to offer based on the 2 quests shown in the video?

Are you in Alpha or something? SHOULD WE ALL BE WORRIED?

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Yoshida said himself awhile back. Do you want 300 quests per patch or do you want 10 quality ones. He answered that we all wanted 300. As a fan of Final Fantasy XIV. I will say that decision scares the crap out of me.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Yoshida said himself awhile back. Do you want 300 quests per patch or do you want 10 quality ones. He answered that we all wanted 300.

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People didn't ignore this, they're just in denial that those 300 quests a month will have the quality of the main storyline :\

Also:

"You only seen.."

Most people seen a lot more than what SE has posted :\

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Yoshida said himself awhile back. Do you want 300 quests per patch or do you want 10 quality ones. He answered that we all wanted 300.

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Nice way of taking that quote out of context. They were talking about voice acting.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Don't get your hopes up.

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There is no shame in hope. Hope is a wonderfully human concept and I like to hope every day, from innocent hopes born of laziness to more serious hopes born of concern, I shall not cease in my hoping.

I can't "get my hopes up" because I don't harbor such a concept in my being. I hope long, I hope full, I hope even when one is (said to be) silly to have done so, and in the end, even if that hope brings no good reward, I will know that it was not my error - it was not my error to hope - and thus, there is no shame to do so. Disappointment must happen, but that doesn't mean hope should leave me when it does.

Thank you for providing me this opportunity to wax poetic. :)

Look at me, being silly again. :rolleyes: Oh well.

I am betting FATES will give good exp to ^^

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I am just really happy to finally have the option to do either of those things in a FF game instead of being forced to do only one, and thats not even counting the NM hunts. Hurray for choices!!!

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Nice way of taking that quote out of context. They were talking about voice acting.

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Out of context? The first quest in that video had 11 lines worth of dialogue. You're telling me that's a quality quest? 10 of those with voice acting counterweights 290 more of those?

I have high standards is all, and it's one of the main factors I don't play Terra/WoW/Aion and so on. I hate that type of Quest system. Don't get me wrong it's not wrong to have some of that type of Quest, but I fear they will follow the trend and implement thousands of those over ARRs lifetime. I pray i'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yeah, I'm still waiting for an MMO to do the quest progression differently, so far as of today, they all end up exactly. the. same. way.

Deny it as much as you want, you're guaranteed to see the same style quest repeated everywhere you go even if it mixes it up between:

"Kill 10 boars!"
"Go pick 5 vegitables!"
"Roll that rock down the hill!"

You'll repeat these 3 types of quests 100x over every hub you go to. Let's not forget the dungeons that tend to also repeat in objectives unless they're linked to a story, which is very rarely.

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There is no denial. It's clear that MMOs will use these quest systems. It just comes with being an MMO. Are you asking for quests like:

"Protect this valuable figure while he carries this valuable item, from point A to B!"
"Disguise yourself as these guys and listen in on this conversation to see what they are planning!"
"Make it to this switch in ? minutes before this devastating effect happens!"
"Talk to all these people, figure out who is not saying who they say they are!"

?

TLDR not sure if this was said but no matter how you look at it, almost all games are the same... just how you go about it, get quest go kill x# of mobs or gather x# of items to lvl, then go kill boss for gears, then lvl some more then kill the boss at end game and save the world :p that covers most game out there...

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Originally Posted by pool842

Is it just me did any of you make is past level 7 on GW2? I thought the leveling in that game was boring as hell... I much prefer wow quest/dungeon leveling to GW2 leveling. On the other hand the GW2 events which 14 will have will be badass really excited for that.

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I made it past level 7 and enjoyed the direction of quest leveling progression as opposed to monster grinding. It's not a console rpg so it works.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Out of context? The first quest in that video had 11 lines worth of dialogue. You're telling me that's a quality quest? 10 of those with voice acting counterweights 290 more of those?

I have high standards is all, and it's one of the main factors I don't play Terra/WoW/Aion and so on. I hate that type of Quest system.

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SWTOR already tried pushing for full-voiced quests filled with cut scenes and various dialog options and interactions with NPC's for their quests. Just isn't good enough for gamers. People need more than 10 quests per patch. A whole lot more. I'll gladly take 300 voiceless quests over just 10 of the same quests with voices any day.

yet by your medal count you grinded in 14 1.0 way longer then my brain could handle.. your point is invalid sir. 14 pre patch 1.9 was bad sooo... I don't really see your logic? Especially when you consider wow,terra,Aion?

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Out of context? The first quest in that video had 11 lines worth of dialogue. You're telling me that's a quality quest? 10 of those with voice acting counterweights 290 more of those?

I have high standards is all, and it's one of the main factors I don't play Terra/WoW/Aion and so on. I hate that type of Quest system. Don't get me wrong it's not wrong to have some of that type of Quest, but I fear they will follow the trend and implement thousands of those over ARRs lifetime. I pray i'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

There is no denial. It's clear that MMOs will use these quest systems. It just comes with being an MMO. Are you asking for quests like:

"Protect this valuable figure while he carries this valuable item, from point A to B!"
"Disguise yourself as these guys and listen in on this conversation to see what they are planning!"
"Make it to this switch in ? minutes before this devastating effect happens!"
"Talk to all these people, figure out who is not saying who they say they are!"

?

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That's pretty much levequests in 1.0. And we still have yet to look forward to those (if they're still the same). And we've yet to see class/guild specific quests that usually house a different pot of tricks(usually, haven't done all of them but some of them were definately different from the norm).

Yet people think these two quests we see in the video are all it's ever going to be...