Focus Classes amongst their respective Jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LemmingKingXXX

I'm of the thought that having classes and jobs be separate entities yet related to one another allows for a much easier time of balancing any solo/small group activities and large group activities separately. You can create jobs from the focus of a single aspect from one (or two) class(es) in which the act of focusing creates a weak area necessarily compensated for by party members, yet keep that focus more distributed for classes in a way that still provides a difference in playstyle (albeit not a radical departure necessarily) while allowing for a greater degree of survivability and independence which promotes a less social play experience should the mood arise.

I just believe that allowing classes and jobs to take separate development lives creates more room for developers to play, and while classes may not be the majority focus of game balance, having that distinction available can't hurt.

---

but if its not done right, which its not, it can hurt how well this game does its 2nd time around.

this post turned into let make it like 1.0 launch where every job can do everything.

we had that already and people didnt want it. now we have specialized jobs and now people dont want that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

Couldn't the same be said for every other job/class combo? How many people do you see running around as their class counterparts in content of any relevance? (or at all, really)

---

Why do you think i made this thread? did you read the thread? because that remark seems to suggest to me you didnt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaltus

Why do you think i made this thread? did you read the thread? because that remark seems to suggest to me you didnt.

---

Nope, didn't read.

part of my issue with the multiple jobs per class thing is that once you level the class to max then all jobs that stem from that class are automatically max level. thus it comes to level the 8 classes and have 8 16 24 36 how ever many jobs max level, assuming of course the classes have equal options for jobs. which could become an issue. if one class has 2 or 3 job options and another has 4 or 5 its pretty unbalanced.

having everyplayer have every job at max is kinda saddening. it'd be nice if peoples jobs were diverse and it'd do alot to reduce job stacking to i think. see some more varied party setups if not everyone has everything.

be interesting how ppl would have dne av cc if powerlevelling or getting to 50 wasn't so ridiculously fast and easy be alot less people with 7/7 50s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

part of my issue with the multiple jobs per class thing is that once you level the class to max then all jobs that stem from that class are automatically max level. thus it comes to level the 8 classes and have 8 16 24 36 how ever many jobs max level, assuming of course the classes have equal options for jobs. which could become an issue. if one class has 2 or 3 job options and another has 4 or 5 its pretty unbalanced.

having everyplayer have every job at max is kinda saddening. it'd be nice if peoples jobs were diverse and it'd do alot to reduce job stacking to i think. see some more varied party setups if not everyone has everything.

be interesting how ppl would have dne av cc if powerlevelling or getting to 50 wasn't so ridiculously fast and easy be alot less people with 7/7 50s

---

this game frowns upon dedication to a single class, it basically forces you to have all classes leveled to be proficient in any class. take for instance what someone posted above MRD only out Damages WAR if lancer skills are used this forces you to level lancer to be a better DD MRD.

i also agree on the point that Starting Jobs Insta 50 is going to do more harm then good especially with the influx of new players trying a craft and finding out they cant make good money because no one's willing to to buy. yoshi's answer of segregating the new players from the vets only serves to slow this effect.

L

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

part of my issue with the multiple jobs per class thing is that once you level the class to max then all jobs that stem from that class are automatically max level. thus it comes to level the 8 classes and have 8 16 24 36 how ever many jobs max level, assuming of course the classes have equal options for jobs. which could become an issue. if one class has 2 or 3 job options and another has 4 or 5 its pretty unbalanced.

having everyplayer have every job at max is kinda saddening. it'd be nice if peoples jobs were diverse and it'd do alot to reduce job stacking to i think. see some more varied party setups if not everyone has everything.

be interesting how ppl would have dne av cc if powerlevelling or getting to 50 wasn't so ridiculously fast and easy be alot less people with 7/7 50s

---

I undestand what your saying and i personally do not care one way or the other however SE already said they would not take away our lvs and seperating it in that way would do just that in that X Job would no longer be available at X lv. SE can and will increase the lv caps which would recieve a whole lot less emnity from the playerbase than if SE swept the rug out from under people and said "but we never said anything about giving jobs lvs!"

There are still the job quests to be done i know thats not much consolation but people who level'd everything already did so and is not reverseable unless SE change their minds. You will have to look forward to new classes and lv caps and hopefully a whole lot of job quests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valmonte

this game frowns upon dedication to a single class, it basically forces you to have all classes leveled to be proficient in any class. take for instance what someone posted above MRD only out Damages WAR if lancer skills are used this forces you to level lancer to be a better DD MRD.

i also agree on the point that Starting Jobs Insta 50 is going to do more harm then good especially with the influx of new players trying a craft and finding out they cant make good money because no one's willing to to buy. yoshi's answer of segregating the new players from the vets only serves to slow this effect.

---

don't get me wrong. i have no issue with the idea of a mrd using lnc skills it's not really any different from a sub job. and in that respect to be a proficient marauder your lancer would only ever need level 26 and. to be a proficient paladin your mrd would only need to be level 14 your cnj 36 at most. it's really not much different from levelling sub jobs half way.

what i hope for 2.0 is that people shouldnt need to play "everything" i'm quite lucky myself i spend 95% of my time on paladin or monk (my 2 favorite jobs) and have seen all content in the game except a few bits of the relic content. i don't have relic i couldnt be doing with the hamlet seals gambling on melds and i hate speedruns. but i have cleared av&cc in 17 mins cleared darkhold in 15, helped friends on a few of the faction leves, and i've done all of that mostly as pld or monk with the occasional use of blm/brd.

i have friends that love drg and can't play it much. av they go blm/mnk, drg is apparantly pretty good at miser but i've never seen it and i think most people don't try to mix it up simply because everyone has monk therein lies the problem..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

You loose all the DD skills from other classes same thing for brd.

Invigorate, Blindside, Keen Flurry, Blood for blood.

A GLA could do more dmg than a WAR if he went with the DD skills. Had some fun with some friends who let me fight miser on GLA did an 1k riotblade with GLA, was not even using the ebst sword GLA could use.

---

One example in spike DMG doesn't mean you had better DMG overall on GLA than you would WAR.

Class system should just go. Every job + class they have to balance could have been 2 jobs balanced instead. Why do I need 2 types of black mage. They could easily just change a few abilities/spells around to re-balance jobs to make them more friendly. I've never been a fan of classes. Haven't played as a class aside from thm since jobs were released. I personally would rather them put the time into releasing new jobs that I can level, learn, and have fun with rather than just getting jobs on top of classes for free in the future. I know a lot of people defend and like the class system, but it is just a waste of space in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

They weren't better when they were opened ended messes of nothingness, even Yoshida didn't like how it felt that way. It was built this way specifically to flow into their jobs rather than making jobs something different, but as we seen on these forums, people were actually complaining and bitching about the concept of doing a quest to unlock a new job that and I quote: "Should be available to everyone at the start."

So the community will hold back any logical changes.

---

Thats what i meant, saying that classes needs an overhaul, at release classes were a mess, you could be a thm tank and even be better than gladiator (a lot of people soloed dodore) you could be a gladiator and not be a tank, but that was a huge mistake by the director at that time, leaving us players the freedom to be whatever role we wanted, i remember making a pseudo RDM at that time, what the classes needs is more of that freedom we had but with its restrictions, i agree that gladiator should make more damage than pld by far but having less defense and less tanking abilities, but more abilities to pick from different classes (maybe having a secondary weapon/dual wield option instead of shield)

I don really know if they're leaving classes in 2.0, but if they leave'em that could be a way to do it, we need a reason to use classes over jobs in solo situations, like marauder i dont see how it can be better than warrior in solo and party play, they need to give certain skill to classes only, that you lose when you switch to a job, but winning other skills fit to your role, and maybe having a second option on your main weapon for classes like yoshi said that may have 2 or more job options, like gladiator being able to switch to paladin or dark knight, well you could have the option of double wield short swords or use a gratsword instead, by changing the weapon the ws could be different and add that you can use several skills from other classes....

Classes are for solo play, jobs are for party play. Why does that need to change?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elreed

Thats what i meant, saying that classes needs an overhaul, at release classes were a mess, you could be a thm tank and even be better than gladiator (a lot of people soloed dodore) you could be a gladiator and not be a tank, but that was a huge mistake by the director at that time, leaving us players the freedom to be whatever role we wanted, i remember making a pseudo RDM at that time, what the classes needs is more of that freedom we had but with its restrictions, i agree that gladiator should make more damage than pld by far but having less defense and less tanking abilities, but more abilities to pick from different classes (maybe having a secondary weapon/dual wield option instead of shield)

I don really know if they're leaving classes in 2.0, but if they leave'em that could be a way to do it, we need a reason to use classes over jobs in solo situations, like marauder i dont see how it can be better than warrior in solo and party play, they need to give certain skill to classes only, that you lose when you switch to a job, but winning other skills fit to your role, and maybe having a second option on your main weapon for classes like yoshi said that may have 2 or more job options, like gladiator being able to switch to paladin or dark knight, well you could have the option of double wield short swords or use a gratsword instead, by changing the weapon the ws could be different and add that you can use several skills from other classes....

---

They wouldnt have placed classes on the official FFXIV website and announced a new class to go with them(Arcanist) if they were going to just say to heck with it soon after that wouldnt be a sign of a stable development team. The development team have decided to stick with Classes wether we like it or not and we have to live with it atleast untill they've played with them some more in alpha/beta and decide otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Punainen

Classes are for solo play, jobs are for party play. Why does that need to change?

---

I agree i'm trying to push more focus towards that end and to get away from the sharing class skills system if not entirely so as to allow for more unique to Class and Job actions.

If you don't like the current class system that is a shame. It is a great way to play Solo. They are significantly different than Jobs.

Further restricting class skills is a waste of time. People who do not like classes as they are right now will never like classes.

Please stop trying to ruin them for others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

One example in spike DMG doesn't mean you had better DMG overall on GLA than you would WAR.

---

Only thing you need to know is GLA gains more dmg less cool down on skills and will be doing more ws than war which = more dmg. After they fixed plds ws dmg prob in that sub pacth the gap between war/pld DD got closer than it should imo.

I love classes. They are far superior to use when soloing.

I love the class specific gear. I love being able to use other classes abilities that I've unlocked on whatever class I'm on.

I also love jobs in a party atmosphere. I think BLM needs to be a little more effective, but that's easy by making their job only abilities more effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

Only thing you need to know is GLA gains more dmg less cool down on skills and will be doing more ws than war which = more dmg. After they fixed plds ws dmg prob in that sub pacth the gap between war/pld DD got closer than it should imo.

---

Do you have parse results? You must be paired with some pretty terrible warriors.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing classes changed a bit to make them more interesting -- cross-class abilities, while enjoyable don't seem especially distinct or fitting. That said, the means for this shouldn't overlap with jobs.

I usually see classes being a sort of window into the possibilities of a fight that can bring almost any tool to serve it while working within the confines of its weapon, and jobs as a distinct toolset (which then causes a 'window' of its own, but less directly).

Honestly, in this sense, it seems like almost everyone *could* tank, and everyone *could* dps, to varying extents. The means need only vary greatly.

And I suppose this doesn't really apply specifically to any of the sets of abilities we have right now. But, as so many will be changing in ARR, that seems the least of problems in this vague idea.

I could see Classes gaining their own unique skills past a certain level while Jobs branch the other way, but the balancing of that would be a nightmare. Not to mention the inevitable bitching of the community of "WHY CAN'T I USE THAT ABILITY ON MY PLD IT'S UBER ON MY GLA" etc etc.

One thing I can suggest is for classes to use TP more often than the jobs. That's to say, have more abilities that use TP which can THEN be equipped across the classes. Radiance, for example, from the CNJ line of abilities - TP weaponskill, does damage, and regains MP. A good ability even for the melee classes, which allows them a few more precious drops of MP to cure or buff.

What I'm more thinking about is probably best described in a chart...Let's use Conjurer as an example.

Level 1 - Stone [CNJ/WHM]
|
Level 2 - Cure [CNJ/WHM]
|
....
|
Level 30 - Cura [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 30 - Purge [CNJ]------Presence of Mind [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 34 - Sacred Prism [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 35 - Radiance [CNJ]------Regen [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 38 - Shroud of Saints [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 40 - Shock Spikes [CNJ]------Esuna [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 42 - Aerora [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 45 - Boon [CNJ]------Holy [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 46 - Curaga [CNJ/WHM]
|
Level 50 - Repose [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 50 - Coruscation [CNJ]------Benediction [WHM]
\ /
|
(The following is just speculation on what can be added with level cap raise)
|
Level 55 - Reraise [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 55 - Evanescence [CNJ]------Eschaton [WHM]

Explanation of abilities chosen (and my own interpretation):
Purge - removes elemental attributes of target enemy. Meaning that resists against Aero and Stone gets removed, even allowing Fire, Blizzard, Thunder etc. to potentially hit harder given the right circumstances.
Radiance - TP move, deals non-elemental magical damage, chance to regain MP.
Shock Spikes - covers body in electric waves that have a chance at paralyzing the enemy.
Boom - increases cast and recast time to lengthen spell duration of next enhancing spell.
Coruscation - TP move, deals variable non-elemental magical damage, chance to absorb HP and MP. (combo; Radiance - chance to also absorb TP)
Evanescence - TP move, deals high non-elemental magical damage, chance to inflict DoT effect. (combo; Radiance - attack turns into AoE target)
Eschaton - deals heavy holy damage in area of effect around target enemy, chance to inflict Dia effect.

Of course, it's really the system that I'm trying to get through. I feel that the class-quests are a bit of a waste, since they generally don't really do anything for the [Classes] themselves. So they could have class and job quests run parallel, and reward abilities at the end of each questline.

The only condition is that the class abilities gained from questlines can be used by OTHER classes, but cannot be used by jobs. Jobs gain their own specialised abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

If you don't like the current class system that is a shame. It is a great way to play Solo. They are significantly different than Jobs.

Further restricting class skills is a waste of time. People who do not like classes as they are right now will never like classes.

Please stop trying to ruin them for others.

---

What i know is that Classes are holding back the Job system for no other reason than piss poor decisions regarding the way there are to be handled. classes are nothing more than jobs on training wheels, that's there intend purpose and i hate it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Do you have parse results? You must be paired with some pretty terrible warriors.

---

With both Warrior and Paladin equally equipped, Warriors barely edge out against paladins vs single targets and that's only if the Warrior is Berserked. otherwise Paladin Will have the Edge over Warrior.

As the are now, classes are pretty much useless.

Classes should just be a formality where you start as a class, and at level 30 be required to unlock its job to level it any further. (Why would a Dragoon willingly go back to being a lancer anyway?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valmonte

With both Warrior and Paladin equally equipped, Warriors barely edge out against paladins vs single targets and that's only if the Warrior is Berserked. otherwise Paladin Will have the Edge over Warrior.

---

Except we weren't talking about PLD. We were talking about GLA!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkine

As the are now, classes are pretty much useless.

Classes should just be a formality where you start as a class, and at level 30 be required to unlock its job to level it any further. (Why would a Dragoon willingly go back to being a lancer anyway?)

---

In all honesty, the class system merely needs a tweak and it can stand on it's own. I really think introducing class-only abilities will aid that, if they implement the abilities well.

Dragoon going back onto Lancer will benefit from almost 5 survivability abilities straight off. But I can see why you would think as such. Really, we just need to polish up on a few aspects, and it would work in conjunction with the job system.

I don't want to see the class system go. It's great that jobs have an edge for party play. And for players leveling their first class, job skills make it possible to play a role effectively without grinding for cross-class abilities.

But classes are fun, for playing solo or in small groups where the "right" job is missing. An archer loaded with DD skills is very powerful and satisfying to play. A pugilist that can cure to full hp between fights without waiting 45 seconds spends more time playing the game and less time waiting for cooldowns. And some great combos, like Bloodbath/Blood for Blood, can only be done with a class.

If you don't enjoy playing with a class, no problem, but don't take that option away from those of us who do. A game is about having fun, not just being maximally effective.


As for second jobs on a class, SE just needs to code it so that second jobs level up from 30 again. It makes sense to let the class and first job grow together, but "magically" having a second level 50 job rightly annoys everyone who's posted about it. Start job 2 at level 30 and make people earn it -- then there's no problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

In all honesty, the class system merely needs a tweak and it can stand on it's own. I really think introducing class-only abilities will aid that, if they implement the abilities well.

Dragoon going back onto Lancer will benefit from almost 5 survivability abilities straight off. But I can see why you would think as such. Really, we just need to polish up on a few aspects, and it would work in conjunction with the job system.

---

Perhaps but what i'm talking about is allowing Classes to solo more on their own merits and less with the aid of other Classes while it is interesting trying to swap abilities around(though currently alot of them are downright useless) people forget that they had to level a bunch of classes some of them almost the entire way through. Chameleon for example is lv 42 Archer which is ridiculous for such an important ability for a player to have to level so far through archer's experience bar to obtain.

When new players come to 14 if its the same as it is now they will find they have to spend numerous hours on classes they dont like and dont want to play. And if SE increases the time it takes to level(which they said they will) that places this system as a even larger burden on players who just want to play whatever it is they want to play. The current system doesnt really effect me i already spent all the work getting classes up but it seems a waste to keep the status quo. I could go for a reduction of the number of class skills equippable but still leave some to choose from but with the increase in time taken to level they should reduce the burden on players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaltus

Perhaps but what i'm talking about is allowing Classes to Solo more on their own merits and less with the aid of other Classes while it is interesting trying to swap abilities around(though currently alot of them are downright useless) people forget that they had to level a bunch of classes some of them almost the entire way through. Chameleon for example is lv 42 Archer which is ridiculous for such an important ability for a player to have to level so far through archer's experience bar to obtain.

When new players come to 14 if its the same as it is now they will find they have to spend numerous hours on classes they dont like and dont want to play. And if SE increases the time it takes to level(which they said they will) that places this system as a even larger burden on players who just want to play whatever it is they want to play. The current system doesnt really effect me i already spent all the work getting classes up but it seems a waste to keep the status quo. I could go for a reduction of the number of class skills equippable but still leave some to choose from but with the increase in time taken to level they should reduce the burden on players.

---

Indeed, I feel the same. Which is why I proposed the class-only skills that become available through quests as well, much like how the job abilities also come. (refer to my extra long post on the previous page)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Indeed, I feel the same. Which is why I proposed the class-only skills that become available through quests as well, much like how the job abilities also come. (refer to my extra long post on the previous page)

---

I see, i could agree with something like that atleast so long as the Mp drain/gain weaponskills actually work =P

Edit: Though if i would ask for anything its that Class defining abilities be weapon specific/ specific to that class to keep the flavour of said Class and save the poor guy who has to lv Conjurer to 45 for Boon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaltus

Perhaps but what i'm talking about is allowing Classes to solo more on their own merits and less with the aid of other Classes while it is interesting trying to swap abilities around(though currently alot of them are downright useless) people forget that they had to level a bunch of classes some of them almost the entire way through. Chameleon for example is lv 42 Archer which is ridiculous for such an important ability for a player to have to level so far through archer's experience bar to obtain.

When new players come to 14 if its the same as it is now they will find they have to spend numerous hours on classes they dont like and dont want to play. And if SE increases the time it takes to level(which they said they will) that places this system as a even larger burden on players who just want to play whatever it is they want to play. The current system doesnt really effect me i already spent all the work getting classes up but it seems a waste to keep the status quo. I could go for a reduction of the number of class skills equippable but still leave some to choose from but with the increase in time taken to level they should reduce the burden on players.

---

Classes are fine for their intended purpose.

Chameleon is useless solo. What are you going to do? Shed hate from the mob only you are currently fighting? Your example for the argument you are trying to make doesn't fit in this case. You don't need to use chameleon solo, so leveling ARC to 42 is not something a solo player would have to do.

Even then, to fix that (even though it doesn't need to be fixed) just change the level that Chameleon is available to a lower level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Classes are fine for their intended purpose.

Chameleon is useless solo. What are you going to do? Shed hate from the mob only you are currently fighting? Your example for the argument you are trying to make doesn't fit in this case. You don't need to use chameleon solo, so leveling ARC to 42 is not something a solo player would have to do.

Even then, to fix that (even though it doesn't need to be fixed) just change the level that Chameleon is available to a lower level.

---

Forgive me i ment to say that Classes should be able to solo and lowman party more on their own merits and Jobs should be able to perform their roles in a Party more on their own merits. I also agree that they could just simply reduce the level of chameleon specifically when it comes to that issue though i wonder how much it would effect party balance at the lower levels. Atleast in a balanced game where you could take hate from the tank in dungeon etc etc being able to lower hate at lower levels would effect damage output and other things. So they may have to make changes to other things as well in doing that.

Since PvP will be in here, why not make classes excel at that? Maybe some made-up excuse in the lore will ban job stones or something. Or even buff stats if you're a bare class in a match. Gives a reason to gear a class. Jobs can be for PvE, party play, etc.
I always thought they could have done more with the "specializations" jobs have, especially if they could do 2 to a class later down the road.
Like Conjurer. Switching to WHM could nerf nuke ability, and buff healing and support abilities. A second job for CNJ could be Oracle, focusing on the nuke/enfeebling aspect of CNJ, perhaps through use of high-tier Water/Aero/Stone spells.
Alternatively, Thaumaturge's second job could be Time Mage, utilizing support(Haste) and enfeebling(Slow, Stop for "final" spell) to play different than BLM's sheer power in nuke ability.
But who knows, the fact that class/job share a level makes it weird, would have to do the majority of spell/ability learning by doing quests.
Ofc, just talking out my ass and speculating, haha. Who knows, maybe classes/jobs will be more distinguishable by 2.0 retail anyway.

I'm guessing classes ALREADY excel at PvP because of the increased survivability, at least for 1v1 PvP. Classes have been repeatedly called "better for solo play" because of access to a ton of keep-yourself-alive abilities like Cure, Stoneskin, Sentinel, Second Wind, Sanguine Rite, etc. A Dragoon would be torn to pieces in solo PvP because 5/10 added abilities are wasted on DRG-only abilities instead of stuff which will actually let you take more than 2 hits before dying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Punainen

Classes are for solo play, jobs are for party play. Why does that need to change?

---

With the exception of BLM, I feel all the jobs can solo as well or better than their class counterparts. BLM was the only job I didn't level up with solo because of how restricted their spells were. I chose to go THM so I'd have Stone and Aero at my disposal.

The last couple of replies are interesting though. Classes should have a place in PvP. It's kind of a shame that's the only thing they seem to really be useful for though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Punainen

Classes are for solo play, jobs are for party play. Why does that need to change?

---

because classes are worthless in solo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

With the exception of BLM, I feel all the jobs can solo as well or better than their class counterparts.

---

a warrior solo's better than a marauder, even after the steel cyclone changes.
a whm solo's better than a cnj, (regen your self and just nuke like crazy)
a brd solo's better than an arc. (people disagree here but while invigorate keen flurry blood for blood etc may boost your spike damage they cannot keep up with the tp skill spam offered by paeon of war over time.
pld solos better than gla, theres very little in the way of skills you can set that will make up for losing sw damage and dv's mitigation. even more so if you blood for blood your sw gives you a chunk of hp back
a blm can solo better than a thm convert is really nice and sleepga is a life saver for aggro,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I love classes. They are far superior to use when soloing.

I love the class specific gear. I love being able to use other classes abilities that I've unlocked on whatever class I'm on.

I also love jobs in a party atmosphere. I think BLM needs to be a little more effective, but that's easy by making their job only abilities more effective.

---

mrd has no steel cycle which will make it worse all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

With the exception of BLM, I feel all the jobs can solo as well or better than their class counterparts. BLM was the only job I didn't level up with solo because of how restricted their spells were. I chose to go THM so I'd have Stone and Aero at my disposal.

The last couple of replies are interesting though. Classes should have a place in PvP. It's kind of a shame that's the only thing they seem to really be useful for though.

---

Yeah, my LS was discussing how THM is basically going to destroy PvP because of access to Sanguine Rite, Sentinel, etc. and also have the best ranged attacks in the game.

If classes no longer share abilities amongst each other then classes lose their advantage and might as well be removed. If they had to change it I'd suggest just removing classes and keeping jobs as their own separate entities. This won't happen, things are looking to stay mostly as they are now just with revamped skills/abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

If classes no longer share abilities amongst each other then classes lose their advantage and might as well be removed. If they had to change it I'd suggest just removing classes and keeping jobs as their own separate entities. This won't happen, things are looking to stay mostly as they are now just with revamped skills/abilities.

---

maybe changing alot of he skills will be enough to fix the fact that not all classes are better at solo as they should be, well see. for example if im farming 10 lvl 50 raptors at a time on war, i blood bath steel cyclone and thats an instant cure for over 3k hp which is something i cant do on mrd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makwa

Since PvP will be in here, why not make classes excel at that? Maybe some made-up excuse in the lore will ban job stones or something. Or even buff stats if you're a bare class in a match. Gives a reason to gear a class. Jobs can be for PvE, party play, etc.

---

I think it will honestly be about the same as most PvP composition decisions. PvP usually involves picking people off, and its harder to do that to a member with all his personal defense bases covered as opposed to one that's pure DPS and reliant on the other members. You can likely form a (potentially) higher dps and higher mitigation party with jobs, but seeing as players will do everything in their power to ensure you don't get close to your potential, you'll likely see higher results through less inter-dependent party makeup (classes).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makwa

I always thought they could have done more with the "specializations" jobs have, especially if they could do 2 to a class later down the road.
Like Conjurer. Switching to WHM could nerf nuke ability, and buff healing and support abilities. A second job for CNJ could be Oracle, focusing on the nuke/enfeebling aspect of CNJ, perhaps through use of high-tier Water/Aero/Stone spells.
Alternatively, Thaumaturge's second job could be Time Mage, utilizing support(Haste) and enfeebling(Slow, Stop for "final" spell) to play different than BLM's sheer power in nuke ability.
But who knows, the fact that class/job share a level makes it weird, would have to do the majority of spell/ability learning by doing quests.
Ofc, just talking out my ass and speculating, haha. Who knows, maybe classes/jobs will be more distinguishable by 2.0 retail anyway.

---

Hey, speculation is both fun and often helpful. And I'm hoping for the same here. Honestly, I think changing the way abilities are given in general will do more to help classes feel fulfilled and diverse than 'cutting the fat' off choices of rigid abilities though.

On that note: I kind of hope that rather than, in terms of what abilities cross over, having exact abilities built by leveling a class, we actually build more holistic traits. Nothing like the small bonuses or ability-modifying traits we have now, but instead something that moves away from all the modest (even if effective in their own way) cooldown auxiliary abilities, and adding general aspects of gameplay that become central to the class (and to crossed classes).

For example, lets say Archer has a trait called Collusion, which can probably develop into different angles -- something that works similarly to Distract, and then to enmity loss through misdirecting enmity, subtle ability usage, and camouflage. Now, as a Lancer, I'm using this to strike at key times to move my attack's enmity over to the tank, and matching feints with dodges through the 'distract' part of the trait.

Inversely, I could take something like Marauder's Sadist (tp on debilitating effects, by 'tick'), and attach that to my Archer, useful for its slows and bleeds (Bloodletter currently). Or, Marauder's Steadfast on a Pugilist, gaining AP and bonus damage against the attacker according to the knock-back move absorbed or mitigated. Or I could be an incredibly dickish defensive Lancer using Gladiator's Set-up, causing my feints and parries (also blocks if able) to shortly increase my critical strike chance.

However this might work, it should feel more fulfilling than the current Quelling Strike, Chameleon, Bloodbath, Cure, etc secondaries that don't seem to fit that well within the confines of a class. I like the idea of being able to pull stuff like Fire and Cure out of the magic classes, but from a physical discipline, the effects should be replicable without using the exact ability, instead integrating the style and usage into the class's own gameplay.

Jobs will not be eclipsed by classes because of this. A Lancer for instance is simply a lot more open in its choices, with many more roles available to it, than a Dragoon. But a Dragoon may well tear apart a Lancer in terms of dps, and have many added mobility choices entirely unique to that class. High mobility, high physical burst. Good burst CD AoE potential. Dragoon.

The traits it can pick from will likely be limited, and quite not by class exactly (instead, just sheer offensiveness of the trait), while also adding unique traits in addition to Lancer's.

*This would probably be mixed with something having more to do with the weapon styles themselves, to the point of having an incredibly nice javelin throw on an Archer-equipped Lancer, or the old Warrior-Ninja axe-thrower on an Archer-Marauder.

I must be the only person that likes the current system.