If they did that it really wouldn't feel like a pet class to me. I like having my pet with me at all times and controlling what it does. also lol @ kool aid dude...haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Sum-nom-nom-eners~
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11-04-2012, 04:20 AMBabydoll
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11-04-2012, 04:40 AMWarlockBut that's what they are doing >.<Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
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11-04-2012, 04:41 AMFantasiaYoshi did mention that he didn't like the idea of people running around with "their own personal Ramuh" out, which is why they developed the roaming Primal content in which killing it the wild would then mean that the Grand Company or Linkshell (I think it's still under development) that killed it would then be able to control said Primal. So it might end up being a pet calss still, but to a lesser extent than XI was... like maybe they're timed if they aren't out for just a single 'nuke' move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
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11-04-2012, 04:53 AMBabydollQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Hmm that is a good point I remember that now~ I wonder though how he will make it feel like a pet class... I am very uncreative and dumb so I have no real ideas or speculation lol. >.<Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
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11-04-2012, 04:56 AMFantasiaHahaha, to be honest we'll probably all end up being wrong anyway!Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
Having them appear for a single attack could still be classed as a 'pet' move anyway, right? I don't know =/ They may be more permanent than what I thought earlier, but hopefully it won't end up being a 'solo' job like in XI. That ended up being pretty dull in my opinion. -
11-04-2012, 05:50 AMWarlockThat's for the full version of the primal ...free companies will hunt them down defeat them and they will tip their hat to you in respect that you managed to beat them just like in FFXI BUT in FFXIV they will serve you in battle just once and after crushing your enemies they will prolly tell you their debt is paid and leave. Your company will have them for a week and in that week somehow you will have to fill a bar to be able to summon them ,this is something they have to explain ..also if there will be a limited list of battles you can call them upon or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
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11-04-2012, 05:54 AMKaiserDrill
Lol fantasia i meant i wanted to have a real discussion, not have it turn into another crap thread with people just shooting off at the mouth. I didnt want you to mistake my post as such.
Usually if you disagree with someone on these forums, no matter how polite or constructive, people seem to get butthurt really quick. +1 for making the thread -
11-04-2012, 06:13 AMFantasiaAhaha, oh sorry, I completely misunderstood >.< Thanks =DQuote:
Originally Posted by KaiserDrill
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11-04-2012, 06:15 AMFantasiaYeah, that all already been talked about. The bit I said about SMN being less of a pet class than it was in XI wasn't to do with the Free Companies and the wandering Primals. I should have made my point clearer, my bad =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
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11-04-2012, 06:27 AMelreed
Well it could work too as 1 skill for sumoning pets and the 5th for a special attack from one pet of your choice like the pseudo hellfire from the fire pet, they may have a secondary bar for pets that you can use within a limited time or pet action points once you deplete those points your pet goes away, i hope they make an original system with SMN
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11-04-2012, 06:36 AMWarlocklol its ok ^^ the way i understand SMN will fight sounds like the job been "green lantern" haha concept art points that way at least they materialize something made out of energy to do one attack then it vanishes but instead of it been giant fists and shit they will be primal shaped attacks sounds crazy @.@Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
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11-04-2012, 06:38 AMFantasia"Secondary bar for pet points"!Quote:
Originally Posted by elreed
MAYBE the pets will use the TP bar =D It depletes while they're out and perform certain actions, but will recover at a slower rate then other jobs. It'll be nice for a DoM job to be able to use the TP bar like DoW do =) -
11-04-2012, 06:41 AMFantasiaYes! That's how I imagined it being, based on the concept art too:Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Like Yuna in DISSIDIA ^^ -
11-04-2012, 06:55 AMWarlockYes ^^ that looks very cool and that's exactly how i imagine they will implement it ...maybe they were inspired by itQuote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
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11-04-2012, 10:41 AMAlaltusIn ffix you could equip eiko with different jewels to change carbuncle's move. Maybe in ffxiv you use summonstones to channel the Primals through Carbuncle which would explain why summoner cant use Carbuncle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos
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11-04-2012, 10:48 AMCrevox
The only reason they did Yuna like that in Dissidia was memory liimitations, they specifically said they couldn't get the whole summon model out so they did that funky way.
And, we don't know how summoner will work in terms of pet mechanics. All we know is Summoner has 4, Arcanist has Carbuncle, and the Summoner ones are different elements that serve different roles. -
11-04-2012, 02:53 PMRyuko
There have always been so many different methods to dealing with a 'summoner' class across the Final Fantasies.
In some, you summoned that avatar/primal/aeon/whatever for just a few seconds, it did a powerful ability, and left. Carbuncle obviously won't work this way (because of the ability to let him tank, which was mentioned), but none of us are sure about the others. Would the elemental avatars work this way?
In FFXI, you summoned an avatar and spent mana to keep it out as well as mana to use its abilities. If you ran out, or you chose to dismiss it, it would leave. While it was out, it acted as its own entity. Although friendly PC's could not cast on your avatar, enemies could, and so your avatar was efficient at tanking or absorbing abilities (like 1k needles).
In FFX, a summoner became immobile while you, personally, controlled the aeon. Yuna would sit on the aeon or stand next to it... sometimes even run away if it was so large. While your aeon was out, it took all damage for you. None of your party was harmed, and neither was the summoner. What if this is brought into play somehow? (You summon an avatar and gain control of it, but also are forced to be near it, or stand on it.)
Going from the concept art alone, it seems as though the essence of the avatar is summoned specifically from a book. This might be misleading simply because all we have to work with is the concept art, but it is something to consider. The essence seems to be coming out of the book, and perhaps it is only but a fleeting moment that passes while that essence is summoned and maintained?
We really can't know for sure.
As an answer to people who replied to my previous posts: I definitely agree that some giant/gigas race would definitely worship Shiva. The reason I didn't consider them is because there's been no info released about those. I believe I saw the concept art of the sahagins long ago, but simply didn't remember them because they look very different from what I'm used to. To the person that said the beastmen I mentioned aren't aggressive: No, they are not, but at least some of them WILL be in 2.0. I was personally part of an event where goblins attacked the city. (Keep in mind, when they were spawned, they were still green, but we were urged by an NPC/GM to kill them. I'm pretty sure they were green then only to make sure they didn't maul low levels. After the final save, all bets are off.) -
11-04-2012, 06:39 PMFantasiaI just used Yuna as an example, it doesn't really matter why they did it and how they did it, it just perfectly matches the image I had in my head about how summoner might work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
We know this too =b The whole point of this thread is to discuss ideas of what we think might happen and/or what we'd like to see. Nobody knows what's happening with it yet, it's just nice to see some ideas about how people have incorporated the few bits of information that we've been given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
To be honest, as long as it's not identical to how XI worked I really wouldn't mind too much. But now you've put the image of X's aeon system into my head... that'd be an amazing method, albeit verrry difficult to get working. But yes, the concept art is pretty much the majority of my inspiration for the 'single attack' method, although that could just be the pet being mid-summoned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuko
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11-04-2012, 08:19 PMTonkraQuote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
well based on the concept art i thought almost the same.. although i would be really disappointed then to be honest.. i wanted a PETCLASS... and not an other mage who casts spells..
i want to have PETS.. and not just an other form of attack spells, which would it be then..
if its going to be like that... i personally would stick to arcanist.
But THAT is not a summoner to me.. its a real DOWNCUT.. a pseudo summoner, wannabe. a fake summoner.
and dissidia come on.. its a beat and up game... not a roleplaying game... if they implement that shit into 14... good night. but i think this is gonna happen.
but its really not what summoners are used to be in the series. a summoner would be downgraded to a mage which spells would be visualized differently. i thought SE is going to implement a petclass.
i dont mind if its different but a one hit spell attack is just too poor to be true.. and i think its would be disappointing for all of us. maybe the summoner job would be more efficient to all those "skillOr playerbase".. but it would be really "lame"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
well i think because its a beat and up thats why they made it with "single hit" attacks of course. But FFXIV is not a beat and up -
11-04-2012, 08:33 PMJinrya-Geki
Yet another who sees mage as a bad thing, which it is.
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11-04-2012, 08:38 PMMaethusXion
What about the SIREN concept art?
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11-04-2012, 08:54 PMTonkraQuote:
Originally Posted by MaethusXion
well it maybe is going to be an other primal to fight against.. and maybe also to summon with a public company in pvp.
but i dont think for the summoner job. two are already confirmed as "pets" (or whatever they are going to be, a single hit spell or whatever)...
and these are Garuda and Ifrit. -
11-04-2012, 09:05 PMUndrentide
Maybe Arcanist is going to be used as an proper enfeebling type class...this would give Carbuncle some use...the Arcanist cant do direct damage apart from dots and enfeeebles while Carby does the damage through direct attacks.
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11-04-2012, 10:31 PMElexiaSaying this proves you never played many of the FF games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
Majority of FF games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guA79AGt5Nc
So if it is "a mage with spells that are just visually different", they would be making summoner exactly the way it always has been in Final Fantasy games, FFX/XI/XIII for example are the exceptions, not the rule. FFXI was when it was a pet class, which is a game you seem to want SE to take nothing from. -
11-05-2012, 12:01 AMRyuko
I wouldn't mind if it was like XI in the aspect that you were able to keep your pet out. I would mind if, in a party setting, you were encouraged to literally just summon your avatar for an ability, release it, and rest until your timer was up again (throwing in supplemental abilities so you are not wasting time). Of course, you were expected to throw in heals/buffs here and there, but that's a discussion I don't want to spark at this time. I played summoner in XI for years, and this really was what you did in party play. Your rarely, if ever, left your avatar out attacking in a party unless there were special circumstances. Even when they implemented TP affecting the strength of an avatar's magical burst, it still wasn't something people actively used. What did make summoner more interesting was when they split the timers between attack abilities and buff abilities. This made it more interesting.
However, that was a game where you needed to kneel and become immobile if you wanted to restore mp. If you stood up again, it took a few precious seconds to get back on your feet before you could do anything. In this game, you can start casting again immediately, and if you simply stand still, your mana will start to regen. FFXI is but one example of how a 'pet class' was done in an MMO. Although Yoshi P has admitted that he wants to draw from the classical FF's, it might be worth taking a look at other MMO's and how those pet classes were done as an example for what it COULD be.
Many of us are looking at a summoner's abilities through the view of 1.0. "Oh, well each class has 5 abilities, so summoner probably will too." This will all change in 2.0, I'm sure, or as the level cap increases (which it WILL, but not anytime soon). Perhaps there will be more quests added for ALL classes with more abilities to choose from. What I think we should be looking at in our speculation is how the alpha/beta is played for the classes we can already look at. None of this information will be public knowledge until more players are invited, but it might give us a clue. How does timing change for these classes, and how are class-based abilities restricted? -
11-05-2012, 01:43 AMFantasiaI know Elexia already mentioned this, but in almost every FF game up to X (including Tactics and other spin-offs) SMNs WERE a single-move job. X and onwards were the only ones where the summoner actually used the summons in a different manner, and Yoshi said that he wanted to take things down a more traditional route. I believe one of the earlier player polls even mentioned introducing classes like Arithmetician which we haven't seen in a long, loooong time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
I think the main difference between a summoner and an arcanist will be that, even though summoners could not call Carby, they'll have the Primal attacks to deal damage. So if all of Arcanists' own moves are all DoTs and Enfeebles then there's no real way to kill anything unless they added Carby to the fray, but switching to SMN would allow you access to those 4 Primal attacks which could (potentially) be devastating. The presence of these 'spells' would be why Carbuncle is no longer needed, if that's what they're planning to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undrentide
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11-05-2012, 02:14 AMMajoga
Even in Xi most SMNs summoned, used one Pact, then let it go. I would love to see them as a pet class with them out all the time, like the beasts themselves had to gain TP to actually do their moves.
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11-05-2012, 12:25 PMYukagama
I' hope we get some Arcanist gameplay soon!. Am dying to see how is it really going to play.
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11-05-2012, 01:16 PMKoujiGeki
Chaos Legion comes to mind when they mentions it be the essence of the primals.
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11-05-2012, 05:14 PMFantasiaPretty sure they only used that word to emphasise the fact that you're not summoning the Primal itself, unlike in XI when you called the actual avatar (I might be wrong about that, it's been a while =$)Quote:
Originally Posted by KoujiGeki
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11-05-2012, 05:52 PMNefGP
tl;dr
I believe what Yoshi said was that SMN will have 4 pets, each aligned to a specific element that will channel the power of primals/use their essence.
So no, you don't actually get to summon them outright (which I still hate with a passion) but for all intents and purposes, we will get to use (a faction of) their power. So it'll be FFXI all over again.... minus the cool looking avatars.
*sigh*
Honestly I'd rather just have the job play the way it does in the offline games, calling them in for a big flashy effect but that creates a couple of annoying problems, the worst of which being the potential for abuse of spike damage via mass SMN. But there's ways around that, and we don't quite have the level of MP recovery available in this that we did in XI. So burning through all your MP too fast might actually punish a SMN (and it should).
The other problem is that it can seem a bit dull I suppose, if you're waiting for the right time to bring out a summon and relegated to using cross-class skills in between. Still, I'd much rather be able to use Hellfire, Diamond Dust, Megaflare etc. at will to give the party a decisive advantage by swinging the tide of battle - and look cool doing it - then be forced to play a gimpy pet again.
Summons are just one of those iconic elements of FF and while I can appreciate Yoshi's idea of making them unique, I still don't like relegating a staple of the series like that to being a reward for the privileged few. -
11-05-2012, 06:00 PMFantasiaThis is the general impression I got, being that they were only 'summoned' for 1 move. Probably (preferably) just a weaker version of that Primal's special (e.g., Aerial Blast for Garoody)Quote:
Originally Posted by NefGP
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11-05-2012, 09:54 PMTonkrapersonally have you played other MMorpgs besides FFXI with summoner classes?Quote:
Originally Posted by NefGP
I love summoner and petclasses, so i want to have "real" pets, permanent pets, that i can control and command... that it really makes a difference between a spellcaster and a summoner.. i'd be really disappointed if it would be just "one time summon" each time and after the attack they disappear...
i mean after hundreds of summons this wouldnt be special anymore either..
besides that, which offline final fantasys do you mean? in FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13 they are more or less "permanant" and not "one-hit-attack" summons.
well believe it or not there was a big playerbase calling for a pet class, and not yet an other mage with direct damage spells.. which a summoner would be if a summon is just a one-hit attack spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
One-hit attack summons would be just an other "direct damage" spell.. so i could play a black mage then.
i want that:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/76560
http://www.aionspiritmaster.com/wp-c...er-300x187.jpg
or somethin like that
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...as_artwork.jpg
and not an other black mage direct damage dealer disguised into a summoner costume ;XD
a petclass with different mechanics and not yet an other direct damage spell caster.
i know there are people who dislike pet classes, because they often see them as not that effective when it comes to dps in comparison to other classes.
but i myself enjoy the different play mechanics and possibilities which petclass summoner bring into a game. i love it.
btw. the summoner system in AION worked really great.
i am all the way disappointed what was announced till now.. we could have that amazing different summons, other than ifrit etc.... a summon like belias (fire) which we can see on the last artwork that i posted above..
but no... it seems summoners are going to be a downcut, direct damage spell attackers... with the same summons which we had in each of the series (ifrit, garuda, bla..).. it could have been so much more innovative. -
11-05-2012, 10:55 PMElexiaThis is the definition of a Final Fantasy Summoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
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11-05-2012, 11:05 PMTonkrait is not.. Or what is FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13 going supposed to be for you? non existent final fantasys? that argument just doesnt make it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
all mondern final fantasys had permanent summons.
besides that you really cant compare a final fantasy 3 from 199x with a MMorpg.. complete different mechanics. FF3, FF4 etc. had a turn based combat system... so should it be also in FFXIV?
that argument does not work for me. but well.. hopefully we're getting some information at the next live-letter. let us surprise. -
11-06-2012, 01:07 AMBabydollYeah exactly. Summoner has changed in the FF series over the years. I think in description of summoner in that one pic SE released...doesn't it say its going to be a pet class? Well it needs to actually let players control a pet at all times to feel like a pet class >.<Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
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11-06-2012, 01:25 AMElexiaSMNs also are WHMs, and we know how much people hated the idea of being a healer on SMN. If it's a pet "imbued with primal's powers" it's basically going to be like the classic summoner (in most FF games) rather than like XI, which is the first true instance of a pet class, since you can't technically count offline titles when using the argument of "different mechanics"..they'd have to follow XI's example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
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11-06-2012, 01:26 AMWarlockQuote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
It can be a pet class w/o the need to have the avatar out 24/7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
Wrong FFXI is only FF that you could keep a summon out longer due to it slowly consuming your MP and it is a 10 y/o game FFXIII-2 is more modern than that and it has turn based attack and 1 hit summons -
11-06-2012, 01:33 AMKoujiGeki
well to be technical here Rydia was a Smn/Blm in ff4 so not all smn where /whm. Only garnet was really not gonna count YTuna cause she can learn black magic going into lulu sphere grid.
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11-06-2012, 02:18 AMTonkraWhat the heck have you smoked? Summoners are no white mages? because in FFXI mostly all summoners used white mage as a subjob does not mean they are white mages or healers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Summoners itself have no healing skills at all. The arcanist in FFXIV is going to be an enfeebler... he has skills like slow, poison etc.. so really nothing to do with WHM.. nor in the past ff series Summoners havent been healers or white mages either..
what has this to do with permanent pets? nothing at all..Quote:
and we know how much people hated the idea of being a healer on SMN.
The arcanist will be an enfeebling caster besides controlling and commanding the pet itself.. so it wont be any healer at all. nor the summoner in AION was a healer..
so why a summoner should be like in FFXI? it dont have to.. a permanent pet does not mean that he has to be a secondary healer.
and why not? i want to have a damn pet-class... and not an other black mage in form of a summoner with one-hit attack spellsQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlock