Will 8.0 Expansion Cap @ L55 ?

As others have said, by reducing the level, all you do is increase the EXP needed per level, so it makes no difference, level is just a number after all.

If the issue is it takes too long, especially for a new player, I would think the actual wall is the MSQ. If we assume it takes 30 hours per expansion, over 5 expansions, that is already 150 hours and that is just for the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc, not anything after plus the fact that that is likely a lower estimate.

Having some sort of secondary starting point is the most logical thing to do where I would say the start of DT is where the point should be. It is after the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc, I don't think starting at the void is a good point, which leaves the start of DT.

I will also say, I do not agree with having an expansion 'start fresh' as, whilst it might be nice for a new player as they can learn as they go, it would feel really bad for experienced players having to start from scratch, there is already a bad stigma around low level content, so why would you force it onto everyone?

As for levelling secondary jobs, I can also see that as a detriment for someone wanting to try another job, being level 100 and wanting to try, say, Monk, which starts at level 1, that could be a deterrent. A system could be put in place that allows you to choose the starting level, level 1, 50, 60, 70, etc. with the job quests completed up to the unlock level. The caveat here is that you can only unlock up to a point, 20 levels below current expansion level cap, just like the jobs that are released in that expansion.

Really, I do believe the issue is time investment. If something takes too long, people will likely be put off by it and masking it behind something else (halving levels) doesn't address the core issue of time taken. By showing you have ways to skip parts of the time taken, it might draw more people in, especially if it is also made clear that there is a system in the game where you can replay the bits you skipped if you want to.

It's just a number with an arbitrary meaning, I think there are more pressing issues with the game than "number too big"

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Really, I do believe the issue is time investment. If something takes too long, people will likely be put off by it and masking it behind something else (halving levels) doesn't address the core issue of time taken. By showing you have ways to skip parts of the time taken, it might draw more people in, especially if it is also made clear that there is a system in the game where you can replay the bits you skipped if you want to.

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But none of those new players are likely to go back and play the bits they skipped, especially when they have veteran players breathing down their neck all day telling them everything before level 110 sucks to do. (Just like they do now where "only level 100 matters".)

You might bring some people in but I can't see this kind of setup KEEPING them in the game when they've "seen everything worth doing" in their free month and are told they can quit and come back in a few years to do 120 content because that's the new "only thing that matters". It's short-term gains at best, and all while equating ARR/HW/STB/SHB/EW/DT to being the "filler arc" now because new shining starting point with none of that stuffy old baggage of a story to stop people from sitting in endgame PFs all day instead.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

But none of those new players are likely to go back and play the bits they skipped, especially when they have veteran players breathing down their neck all day telling them everything before level 110 sucks to do. (Just like they do now where "only level 100 matters".)

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legit never heard anyone say that

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Originally Posted by Deejudanne

legit never heard anyone say that

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Then you don't go around online much because it's extremely common on big discords, twitch, youtube, reddit, etc...

I don't see any need for a level squish. New players will already have to scale the wall that is MSQ in order to get to the endgame, just because their level says 60 instead of 100 after 200+ hours of story won't change how long the MSQ. If a skip is provided to get to the latest expansion, you could just as easily have this new player start at 90 or 100 and already at the start of whatever expansion is latest.

That said, I also don't want to go beyond 100 either. I feel it's a good stopping point for levelling if they're willing to go down other avenues of growth. But that's just me, more than likely whatever system they come up with will end up being level 110 in all but name.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

That said, I also don't want to go beyond 100 either. I feel it's a good stopping point for levelling if they're willing to go down other avenues of growth. But that's just me, more than likely whatever system they come up with will end up being level 110 in all but name.

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That's really the whole point. I think stopping at L100 or squishing things is the way to go. Telling a brand new player that they have 109 levels to go is a lot to ask for anyone.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Then you don't go around online much because it's extremely common on big discords, twitch, youtube, reddit, etc...

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twitch streams is the most boring shit ngl reddit idk i got 80k points there discord im in every single eu raiding one, "oh no why arent you in normal 14 discords?" because it gets old seeing the same posts over and over "oh no i got aurum vale again rip"

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Originally Posted by Deejudanne

legit never heard anyone say that

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It's pretty much the primary argument for some of the people who keep insisting new players should have a skip that takes them straight into Dawntrail, preferably already set up to grind endgame. No MSQ, no leveling, just right into the PF pipeline they go with certain side content auto-unlocked (like Deep Dungeons or Field Operations). It's usually prefaced by some comment like "I tried to get all my friends into the game but they doubled over in pure agony the moment that old man talked to them on the chocobo cart because the story is SOOOOO BORING and they quit instead of buying all the digital collections, max retainers, and everything on the mogstation."

It's why I have my doubts that the veteran players who keep begging for it actually care about "new player experiences" and are just trying to extradite new meat for the grinder, and then proceed to exaggerate about how terrible levels 1-99 are, or how if these hypothetical new players could just be rushed to the end of the game they'll become lifetime subscribers handing over mad money if only that wicked MSQ and leveling was done away with.

It gets even weirder when you see some of them glaze HW/STB/SHB's plot yet when they suddenly want skips for new players, it all goes into the same furnace they already threw ARR and DT into.

Final Fantasy 14 is ultimately a story-driven/centric MMO, and telling new players "it all sucks/it just gets in the way" isn't the glowing endorsement for the game they think it is and no shit their friends didn't stick around when their veteran buddy is tagging along behind them whining the whole way for them to mash the skip cutscene button already so they can hurry up and farm the newest Savage tier together.

It's not exactly subtle what some of these veteran players actually want, and if they're going to act like SE is "throwing away money" by not letting their friends skip for free, they're more than welcome to buy their friends the skips instead if they're THAT CONFIDENT that it's the only thing stopping their friends from sticking around.

I do get wanting the MSQ to be trimmed down a bit because there IS fat we could do without, or letting side content not be locked behind the MSQ (or its self in the case of PoTD), and I'm 100% on board letting veteran players have lifetime all-in-one free skips for all of their own alts. But trivializing, if not outright trashing, the MSQ for new players just makes me question why they would play an Final Fantasy MMO when they're made to bypass all of the Final Fantasy parts and are repeatedly made to believe that "only endgame matters". At that point they would be better off playing other games with their friends who clearly hate story and cutscenes and just want to jump right into the action. I don't want Square-Enix thinking the MSQ is so unwanted by so many that they don't even bother with it anymore, slapping a big old "oh well, the end" on 8.0 because they think nobody cares and just wants to raid all day every day on the first day.

But hey, if said veteran players are going to insist that the worst part of this MMORPG is the RPG part, than I better damn well get something to bypass the MMO part because I find it equally awful to deal with. They can have their free skips for all new players when I get Trusts in all normal content, even the side stuff. Everyone wins getting to play only the specific content they want, casual or hardcore, with the people they want, real or NPC.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

That's really the whole point. I think stopping at L100 or squishing things is the way to go. Telling a brand new player that they have 109 levels to go is a lot to ask for anyone.

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So just don't tell them in those terms. I didn't start the game with any expectation of what the end point would be.

Plus it makes it sound like the whole game as an obstacle rather than an experience they might want to enjoy.

Also, regardless of how you present it, the real count is "six RPGs" and changing the level count isn't going to make it any shorter.

Whatever they do, I really wish we'd be level 99 instead of 100 next time around.

It's hard as a final fantasy fan.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

But none of those new players are likely to go back and play the bits they skipped,

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Maybe not, but the option is there if they do want to.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

especially when they have veteran players breathing down their neck all day telling them everything before level 110 sucks to do. (Just like they do now where "only level 100 matters".)

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This isn't what I see ingame, at least, not in my circles. The vast majority of the time it is more along the lines of 'Enjoy the story', 'Take your time', etc. The only place I see the more negative sides are on social media and the majority of the criticisms are from veteran players who have the experience of max level content. New players do not have the max level experience to alter their view of the early level combat. So this is an issue of the player base projecting their own feelings on someone else rather than letting the player make up their own mind. (Just as an FYI, this also doesn't mean low level combat couldn't be improved).

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

You might bring some people in but I can't see this kind of setup KEEPING them in the game when they've "seen everything worth doing" in their free month and are told they can quit and come back in a few years to do 120 content because that's the new "only thing that matters". It's short-term gains at best, and all while equating ARR/HW/STB/SHB/EW/DT to being the "filler arc" now because new shining starting point with none of that stuffy old baggage of a story to stop people from sitting in endgame PFs all day instead.

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Most people do not have the time to go through 2 expansions worth of story (assuming this is when 8.0 releases and they can skip to DT) and the end game stuff in one month, between jobs, family, other hobbies, they might only have about 10 hours a week to dedicate to the game, if we assume 30 hours for the story, that is 60 hours for 2 expansions worth and that doesn't even count the end game stuff, which is going to be varied depending on when they join. So, assuming 10 hours a week, you are looking at 2-3 months worth of 'content' to get through and even then, this is assuming that all they do is content and don't do other things with their friends. Maybe, once they do finish the story, they want to know how they got to that point, so they start working though the story that was skipped to get all the context.

Ultimately no one really knows how someone is going to play the game or what their experience is going to be, so looking at things from a narrow, specific point of view, it is potentially going to look bad. But expand that view and you have a much larger scope of the types of players that play the game and realise, not everyone is like that. Different people play for different reasons and we shouldn't ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Ultimately no one really knows how someone is going to play the game or what their experience is going to be, so looking at things from a narrow, specific point of view, it is potentially going to look bad. But expand that view and you have a much larger scope of the types of players that play the game and realise, not everyone is like that. Different people play for different reasons and we shouldn't ignore them.

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Except my way of playing the game isn't well catered to, and even routinely ignored or mocked given the common sentiment towards casual players. I can't "take my time" playing through (or even just trying out) anything when the majority of veteran players just want to rush to endgame and sit there while insisting all new players should be speedran to the end to join them, or "enjoying the story" becomes incredibly hard to do when the game locks MSQ progress behind mandatory group content like Crystal Tower and Trials.

One of the biggest problems I've had with this supposed "MMO" for over 3 years now is an overall lack of people to do anything with from the time I started ARR all the way to the beginning of Endwalker, and I don't like that the solution everyone keeps trying to feed me is that I Just need a skip button into endgame Dawntrail while telling me everything prior to it sucks and "isn't worth doing". It makes the whole game feel meaningless when it's being condensed to some hardcore raid simulator where people just want you around to have another warm body to join their PF meat grinder.

If people are going to act like the MMO part is an afterthought, then I would like an expanded Trust system and more stuff be doable unsync solo so I can at least attempt to experience the prior content that so many people want to bury and forget about for only the newest and shiniest expansion content. I see so many other people complain that content in this game has a shelf life of 2-3 weeks and it's like yeah, no kidding, because everyone is always in some damn rush for some reason and acting like the MSQ is some terrible obstacle. It almost feels like I'm being punished for NOT buying a story skip, but not by the game, but by the community, usually while also being told I suck for being a casual and that I should "just quit already". So if people get their skip button for new players and alts (alts I might add that won't be around to do older content with either), then I want a button that lets me go back and do the content they all skipped whether that's with NPCs or an even stronger unsync.

It was bad enough starting on a "dead data center" when I began on Dynamis, but it's even worse being on a populated (even congested) data center like Primal and having the game still feel dead. At least let me have simulated life to do stuff with while you all leave me behind.

I disagree that we need to stat squish. I think starting at level 100 in 8.0 is fine.

What they need to do is make the 8.0 story something that can be jumped into without playing levels 1-100, include the option to start over in ARR as a level 1 OR to start at level 100 in the new content of 8.0 with a unique speed run tutorial on the chosen job.

Level 100 job skip and story skip edition costs an extra $10 over the base 8.0 expansion, for people who just want to jump into the action.

Maybe the level 100 newbies wake up in 8.0 with amnesia, don't remember anyone or anything, get a montage echo flashback of everything that happened in those levels, but have full access to The Unending Journey if they want to ARR. And they can go back to Eorzea and start over on a job quest at any time, or New Game Plus if they are lost in the plot.

Regardless, whatever the 8.0 story is should be severed enough from 7.0 that you don't need to have played it to be invested.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I disagree that we need to stat squish. I think starting at level 100 in 8.0 is fine.

What they need to do is make the 8.0 story something that can be jumped into without playing levels 1-100, include the option to start over in ARR as a level 1 OR to start at level 100 in the new content of 8.0 with a unique speed run tutorial on the chosen job.

Level 100 job skip and story skip edition costs an extra $10 over the base 8.0 expansion, for people who just want to jump into the action.

Maybe the level 100 newbies wake up in 8.0 with amnesia, don't remember anyone or anything, get a montage echo flashback of everything that happened in those levels, but have full access to The Unending Journey if they want to ARR. And they can go back to Eorzea and start over on a job quest at any time, or New Game Plus if they are lost in the plot.

Regardless, whatever the 8.0 story is should be severed enough from 7.0 that you don't need to have played it to be invested.

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I'm fine with this if it were FREE to a subscription. Allow one character to boost to L100.

It should not cost money for one boost. Other MMOs give you the free boost as soon as you subscribe, that's how it should work.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

Personally I would stop the levelling at 100, and replace it with farming skill points that you can exchange to unlock new optional actions which replace existing ones, allowing you to customize your job's aesthetics and playstyle. Giving players options like this would also help to alleviate the problem of divisive job changes.

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Don't turn the game into WoW with talent trees please.. Then we'll see toxic BiS builds for jobs come out day 1.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Yes but when is too far?

Starting this game at L1 and hearing you have to go to L110 sounds painful as sin. It doesn't attract new players if the mountain is too big to see over.

What we need is fresh blood. That's the only way this game stays alive.

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The mountain that has caused new sprouts to quit or flat out not be interested is the MSQ requirement bloat.. Doing 300 or sometimes with some people 600 hours+ of MSQ from ARR to DT currently is a mountain of a task..

They need to stop locking content behind MSQ and make story optional at this point, some people prefer to stick to gathering and crafting and THAT with some systems are locked heavily behind MSQ grind.

Every single person I got into the game so far has bought the MSQ skip which I think is what SQE wants anyway cause ye more money.. Create the problem, sell the solution. Most of them as well bought a job skip too so they could play their intended job they wanted to play when looking into the game. 8 out of 12 are still playing but the rest quit once they saw the MSQ grinds after DT story and the blue quest chain grinds for further systems to be unlocked. Boo hoo I know grind is grind but alot of FF14 quests are tedious messes now after they passed on being old content.

ARR 2.0 wont fix anything if it is done.. All it will do is cause HW/SB 2.0's to be asked for next.

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Originally Posted by Psycha

Don't turn the game into WoW with talent trees please.. Then we'll see toxic BiS builds for jobs come out day 1.

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I would ragequit if we got talent trees.

They're nothing but toxic BiS nonsense and I quit WoW over it. When I was forced to switch from DPS to Tank in Death Knight many moons ago, I stopped playing.

But honestly I don't think Yoshi P wants them, otherwise we'd have shared classes for our jobs (beyond Arcanist) and so far Yoshi P has never seemed to be interested in that.

I think we're honestly safe from talent trees.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Yoshi P said that something drastic must happen to not endure level bloat.

So will we see all of our levels halved, and the cap reduce from 100 down to L50, giving 5 levels per expansion?

I think this is the most logical and easiest way to reduce the hefty load of 110 levels. Unless they're coming up with a whole new leveling system, which a lot of people seem to be against (Eureka leveling, for example).

Are we crunching our levels into halves at this point?

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I don't think they will change anything as is. You have to realize the only reason to do anything (like MP being capped at 10000) is because underlying netcode requires more bytes. That's why the TP meter disappeared, that's why the number of buffs and debuffs are limited, that's why skills and spells disappear in every expansion, that's why we don't see monsters with 9999999999999999hp. Because to update that x many people in the raid/zone is expensive.

If they are only using one byte for level, and it's signed, then the maximum number is 128. Hence they have to do something. The sooner the better

What I feel they might do is leave the main game level at 100, and instead press down on the job levels alone so they can all be acquired at character creation, and leave the class quests as they are to keep the storylines intact. Equipping the job stones just treats it independently like it does now.

Like the problem with getting new players into the game presently, is that players want to play with their friends and not have to play the entire game and job quest just to catch up to their friend, especially if they just want to play raids and don't care about MSQ.

So maybe the right answer there is separating the MSQ and Raid levels entirely. MSQ only levels the character upon completion of the dungeons, and you're otherwise capped no matter what EXP you have.
Raids then use the POTD type of leveling mechanic where the player is explicitly set to a level with the stats you would have at the end of the content for when that content was released with that job. So all raids are at least somewhat of a challenge instead of a faceroll once it's not current content. Playing the raid multiple times eventually makes it easier as the base level is saved until a maximum level is achieved, but it never achieves a level of ease that phases can be skipped.

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Originally Posted by Valor_C

That's not a bad idea in itself, but there will be one meta build for every job, and people will be excluded from endgame raid content, or maybe even other content when they don't play that one meta build

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They need to find some other solution than avoiding this forever. It's nonsensical. Why are we designing a game around whatever small % of players who actually do this?

And I know that's a hot take but idk, sorry it's just the facts. It does not make sense to design a whole game based on one game mode, just like the game isn't designed based on PvP.

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Originally Posted by Psycha

Don't turn the game into WoW with talent trees please.. Then we'll see toxic BiS builds for jobs come out day 1.

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> We want better changes and more fun gameplay!

Meanwhile community strikes again with "please no change, let it be boring!". Yeah. Also let's remember that it was community's fault for wanting to have 2 minute meta and God forbids that any job is different and have opened window for rotation or similar. Putting talent trees or anything in between wouldn't do any harm to this game considered that every other aspect is already useless. Melding materias where only 5% of materia is worth and rest is thrash, everybody melding the same. Isn't it a bit ironic? You being fine with melding or everyone having SAME GEAR and no variations. But involving talents would be chaotic and bad? Lmao

"But people will be excluded from raids if not meta!" Not like they weren't already excluded if playing wrong jobs or "no picto = no entry" at the beginning of expansion. Please.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

I would ragequit if we got talent trees.

They're nothing but toxic BiS nonsense and I quit WoW over it. When I was forced to switch from DPS to Tank in Death Knight many moons ago, I stopped playing.

But honestly I don't think Yoshi P wants them, otherwise we'd have shared classes for our jobs (beyond Arcanist) and so far Yoshi P has never seemed to be interested in that.

I think we're honestly safe from talent trees.

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I doubt in this. Considering DK is always a solid dps in every expansion, I highly doubt it. What more happened is that your raid needed someone to tank and they had no one else but you since you already had proper gear kek. But yeah.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

I doubt in this. Considering DK is always a solid dps in every expansion, I highly doubt it. What more happened is that your raid needed someone to tank and they had no one else but you since you already had proper gear kek. But yeah.

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Weird bait but okay.

It was Cataclysm, they removed the DPS option and made it all tank. That's when I quit. Raid groups weren't even running when the expansion dropped, it was solid in WotLK.

You're probably just mad that XIV doesn't have talent trees. Calm down. You can still play WoW.

Ruling out talent trees because of balance concerns is not that different an argument from deciding we should only have 1 job per role because otherwise people will create metas where some jobs get excluded; we already have that despite how homogenized the current jobs have become. If done well, talent trees or whatever build system could provide players with ways to experience older job playstyles, or play a job in a completely different role (BRD as a healer or DRK as a DPS come to mind), or otherwise bring back older themes with twists. If I had the chance to play an "Elementalist" WHM that brought back Stone, Aero, and Water spells, I'd want to give that a go. Hell, I'd play SCH again in a heartbeat if I could have Miasma, Miasma II and Bane back as potential options. Even if the only thing you ended up allowing the player to change is the filler rotation and what kind of utility you could bring, that can still be a good amount of player expression that wouldn't be too difficult to balance.

That said, while I like the idea of the talent trees, it would only be in the context of a different job design ethos than what we have now. Rework the jobs to actually be engaging, make the stats that aren't Crit more worthwhile, and even just deciding you want to play a Speed / Piety WHM over a Crit WHM is enough player expression for me. I would only want talent trees if they could legitimately offer new playstyles and/or allow for jobs to change roles.

Honestly not too fussed, as long as it's not something obviously class locking like re-introducing job based striking/piercing/blunt/whatever debuffs we used to have. That specific aspect of Stormblood will always haunt me.

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Originally Posted by Valor_C

That's not a bad idea in itself, but there will be one meta build for every job, and people will be excluded from endgame raid content, or maybe even other content when they don't play that one meta build, which then makes the whole thing irrelevant and a waste of resources.
That maybe works in other games, but I don't trust the FFXIV devs to design it in such a way that there won't be that one proper meta build.

edit:
Look at bluemage, a lot of different skills which let you customize your build how you want, but good luck in finding groups for bluemage endgame content when you don't play with a certain build.

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As someone who will, in fact, exclude players who deliberately play in a way that, well, drags everyone else down, this is exactly why I wouldn't want this sort of change. Having to weed out people in PF would become more annoying and the blocklist limit is way too low for that.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

As someone who will, in fact, exclude players who deliberately play in a way that, well, drags everyone else down, this is exactly why I wouldn't want this sort of change. Having to weed out people in PF would become more annoying and the blocklist limit is way too low for that.

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Exactly this.

If talent trees offered something like raising from the dead or ailment removal or something non-dps that would simply be beneficial to have instead of min-maxing, I'd be for it. But we all know that's not what we're talking about here.

My understanding was the 6.0 stat squish was done due to technical issues. Maybe not squished enough since we're hitting nearly ShB values already. Squishing level number is meaningless, it's not like you need to do your roulettes to get through MSQ, in fact you end up overleveled. The kinds of issues people are talking about here are unfortunately baked into the game, not only in its past content but in the prevailing formula. You gotta do more MSQ fetch quests every couple months to keep up with content and that is simply what FFXIV is, take it or leave it. I don't really see a clear "solution" here. I was interested in the story back in HW but have since become a serial cutscene skipper because that's not the content I play the game for. When a new expansion comes out, I skip everything to finish it as quickly as possible, and if I want to see the story I'll watch it on my alt. It's a lot easier to play that way as the expansions release though, I imagine trying to engage with the game like that starting from EW on would be intolerable.

And to be clear, content pre-level 100 does in fact suck. Not because the MSQ cutscenes or fights aren't good, but because the jobs are terminally boring to play. This is something they need to address imminently, having to progress at least a couple hundred hours to 7.0 to play your job as intended is intolerable and insane. People aren't even happy with how the jobs play once you get there. That is the first thing that needs to be addressed, followed by some more ARR streamlining and maybe a different approach to post-expansion update MSQ requirements.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Yoshi P said that something drastic must happen to not endure level bloat.

So will we see all of our levels halved, and the cap reduce from 100 down to L50, giving 5 levels per expansion?

I think this is the most logical and easiest way to reduce the hefty load of 110 levels. Unless they're coming up with a whole new leveling system, which a lot of people seem to be against (Eureka leveling, for example).

Are we crunching our levels into halves at this point?

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Short answer: Look to what they did to FF11 for levels 99+ since alot of the people who work on FF14 came from that game.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Short answer: Look to what they did to FF11 for levels 99+ since alot of the people who work on FF14 came from that game.

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I had Google explain this one to me as I quit by Chains of Promathia.

Sounds like an interesting system, merit points and job points could work. Was the system viewed favorably amongst the community?

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

I had Google explain this one to me as I quit by Chains of Promathia.

Sounds like an interesting system, merit points and job points could work. Was the system viewed favorably amongst the community?

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It was and still is to some degree. But you have to remember, that the balance in FF11 is very different to FF14. Since SE seems to be more focused on the two minute CD system as a example, it would not shock me if they also do a dumb down variant of this as well.