Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

It's a much larger issue then tank balance or "warrior op in dungeons" (though i agree please remove BW per hit heal it's absurd)

I've made this point serval times and people look at self healing on tanks in a vacuum and say "remove it it's the problem" But in fact it's way more complicated, it's how tanks are entirely designed to be uber defensive (have you seen the mitigations) ontop of having strong self healing tools in a low output games which all three play a factor into how absurdly strong tanks feel Theirs also a point where healer kits are also overtuned.

I think theirs not really a simple solution to fixing the tank healer dynamic without completely overhauling everything about tanks and healers, which is obviously very much needed in the current design as the trinity system as of current is not working and will not continue to work unless something is done.

I'd argue we can't just simiply "nerf tanks" because then they'd feel terrible (they already do infact) we need to actually overhaul them (and healers) simple adjustments such as removing healing from tanks or whatever will not "fix the trinity system" Theirs so many problems that I think we need something much larger to happen.

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Originally Posted by Derio

This is why 4 man content is a problem. In high end 4 man content taking anything not PLD or WAR you are pretty much grieving because of the amount of self healing those two tanks have is light years ahead of the other two tanks.

This is why 8+ man content is huge for healers because that is where their value shines the most. Bloodwhetting was a mistake because it forced devs to give PLD more healing which made them give GNB and DRK a little bit of more healing.

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Gunbreaker isn't very far off Paladin, infact it has way more controlled healing. Healing stats also because DV/Shake are AOE both shields and heals (which are counted as healing) PLD auto healing from magic attacks (which imo should very clearly be removed, paladin shouldn't be a life steal tank it makes no sense)

Warrior is actually kind of bad in 4man content because its AOE damage sucks, you really dont need the excess healing it brings once you get better gear, Drk can comfortably tank with very few heals, I'd know I play DRK in dungeons i barely need any heals.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

The people who play Warrior, obviously. I actually wouldn't be stunned if it's one of the most popular to cap even if most players don't like it because of what a jack of all trades it in in practice.

I totally get the mentality to that doing a massive nerf to a perfectly functioning and beloved job for the sake of other jobs of an entirely different role and playstyle feels very wrong.

And the devs say time and time again that they HATE to do playstyle changing nerfs, and just went over that with the heat placed upon Pictomancer after FRU.

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Exactly, at the end of the day, the solution isn't nerf warrior and make warrior less fun to appease the healers.

The solution is to tinker with healer and find ways to make healer more fun.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Exactly, at the end of the day, the solution isn't nerf warrior and make warrior less fun to appease the healers.

The solution is to tinker with healer and find ways to make healer more fun.

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I used to be one of the people that hated how Warriors could carry anything, but now I think *every* job should be more like Warrior in that a good player can do some insane stuff and feel great playing it. Warrior being cracked should be the example, not the exception.

I just hate the axe berserker fantasy. It doesn't fit me at all.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I used to be one of the people that hated how Warriors could carry anything, but now I think *every* job should be more like Warrior in that a good player can do some insane stuff and feel great playing it. Warrior being cracked should be the example, not the exception.

I just hate the axe berserker fantasy. It doesn't fit me at all.

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You don't need to be a good player to be insane with WAR though outside maybe savage upwards...
You simply press your instant heal button when you need it.

A job definitely should NOT be cracked like it in an MMO where you usually fight in a party.
The equivalent would be a SAM instakilling mobs with Zantetsuken by doing a simple rotation.

Tanks need to get reigned in and WAR most of all.
They have completely invalidated OC already, which is current content.
Just imagine the outcry tank mains would have if DPS and Heal was the best combo and they could tank dungeons without much trouble and be faster with it.

If the job designers one day wake up again, I really hope that they look into the definition of a tank again because "Mary Sue" is usually not it.

There is a problem when every solo guide in an MMO starts with "have a WAR".

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Tanks need to get reigned in and WAR most of all.

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Instead of SE "reining in" what makes WAR so fun and appealing to those who play WAR, I'd rather SE work on making other classes more fun.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Exactly, at the end of the day, the solution isn't nerf warrior and make warrior less fun to appease the healers.

The solution is to tinker with healer and find ways to make healer more fun.

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This is the problem, It's not about appeasing healers It's about having a fundamental and balanced game where tanks and healers are both fun. Rather then outright nerfing warrior we should question on how to rebalance it along side all the other tanks and healers who all need design overhauls.

The issue in my opinion isn't even the fact that warrior has strong self healing it's the way it's implemented to the extent it makes healing on a healer feel even more useless then it already usually is, you can't really add more to healers outside DPS options, which i think is a good direction but at the same time if tanks can just do everything for the healer why not just have everyone who isn't a tank be a DPS?

Thing that confuses me the most is why is the big rage axe tank even about healing mass amounts of hp to allies? it just feels really odd and weird to me personally, but further more why can't warrior have a identity that fits outside being a super sustain machine that invalidates healers as a whole, I much rather have tanks that act as Co-Suppots with your healer, both sharing the responsibility in keeping the party alive but theirs a issue when one can just completely invalidate the other.

I think instead of this "Tank vs healer" debate that gets no one anywhere people should be asking how can we make both roles actually fun and enjoyable, I personally don't like hyper uber defensive self value on tanks is at all fun, it makes the game frankly boring, it might be fun for a little while to turn on "god mode" as a tank, but I personally can't stand warrior in dungeons because of how easy and boring it is that I have a bene on a 25s cooldown that lasts for 8s (3-4 hits) I think tanks and healers would be better if they had to work off each other and synergize well to pull off big pulls rather then tanks easily clicking one button and being able to tank everything.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Instead of SE "reigning in" what makes WAR so fun and appealing to those who play WAR, I'd rather SE work on making other classes more fun.

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There is a difference between fun and overpowered though.
The fun of some shouldn't come at the cost of the rest, you still play with other people in this game who also want to feel like they matter.

WAR was already fun when it wasn't "Jesus with an axe".

I am all for other jobs to become fun again but if we simply follow the WAR example you can just give everyone an instawin button in dungeons because thats what it boils down to.

I am not saying to nerf WAR to the ground but absolutely no one can convince me that it's self healing now is fine, especially not with how easy it is to do.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

This is the problem, It's not about appeasing healers It's about having a fundamental and balanced game where tanks and healers are both fun. Rather then outright nerfing warrior we should question on how to rebalance it along side all the other tanks and healers who all need design overhauls.

The issue in my opinion isn't even the fact that warrior has strong self healing it's the way it's implemented to the extent it makes healing on a healer feel even more useless then it already usually is, you can't really add more to healers outside DPS options, which i think is a good direction but at the same time if tanks can just do everything for the healer why not just have everyone who isn't a tank be a DPS?

Thing that confuses me the most is why is the big rage axe tank even about healing mass amounts of hp to allies? it just feels really odd and weird to me personally, but further more why can't warrior have a identity that fits outside being a super sustain machine that invalidates healers as a whole, I much rather have tanks that act as Co-Suppots with your healer, both sharing the responsibility in keeping the party alive but theirs a issue when one can just completely invalidate the other.

I think instead of this "Tank vs healer" debate that gets no one anywhere people should be asking how can we make both roles actually fun and enjoyable, I personally don't like hyper uber defensive self value on tanks is at all fun, it makes the game frankly boring, it might be fun for a little while to turn on "god mode" as a tank, but I personally can't stand warrior in dungeons because of how easy and boring it is that I have a bene on a 25s cooldown that lasts for 8s (3-4 hits) I think tanks and healers would be better if they had to work off each other and synergize well to pull off big pulls rather then tanks easily clicking one button and being able to tank everything.

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Great points.

My problem with a lot of these discussions and the whole "Tank vs Healer" debate in general, is that, in most cases, it boils down do disgruntled healers wanting to crush tanks to restore FFXIV back to ARR & Heavensward systems. Which, fine, I was having fun then too, so if we rolled back to ARR / HW systems, I'd be fine with it; but, it's a different game now.

So, I'd rather see SE work on spreading the fun around and keeping all classes valid, than invalidating healer or stripping down warrior.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

There is a difference between fun and overpowered though.
The fun of some shouldn't come at the cost of the rest, you still play with other people in this game who also want to feel like they matter.

WAR was already fun when it wasn't "Jesus with an axe".

I am all for other jobs to become fun again but if we simply follow the WAR example you can just give everyone an instawin button in dungeons because thats what it boils down to.

I am not saying to nerf WAR to the ground but absolutely no one can convince me that it's self healing now is fine, especially not with how easy it is to do.

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I gotcha, and I don't really disagree with anything you're saying (though WAR's self healing is fine to me).

I'm just of the pov that fun > balance and tuning when it comes to game design. I don't think balance and tuning should be totally thrown out obviously, but it shouldn't come at the cost of fun, imo.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Instead of SE "reining in" what makes WAR so fun and appealing to those who play WAR, I'd rather SE work on making other classes more fun.

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Can you please present your “vision” on how a person playing a healer who wants to have fun by healing can co-exist with WAR/PLD in their current state

It’s easy to say “don’t nerf tanks make healers fun” but how do you reconcile that with healers who’s idea of fun is specifically because they want to heal (note I don’t mean sylphies here I mean people who do damage and other things but they play a healer because they want to heal)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can you please present your “vision” on how a person playing a healer who wants to have fun by healing can co-exist with WAR/PLD in their current state

It’s easy to say “don’t nerf tanks make healers fun” but how do you reconcile that with healers who’s idea of fun is specifically because they want to heal (note I don’t mean sylphies here I mean people who do damage and other things but they play a healer because they want to heal)

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Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

I just feel like, the "lets strip down tanks" discussion is less productive than discussing: how can battle content be developed to validate my class and what can be done with my class in 7.xx & 8.0 era FFXIV to make my class more enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

I just feel like, the "lets strip down tanks" discussion is less productive than discussing: how can battle content be developed to validate my class and what can be done with my class in 7.xx & 8.0 era FFXIV to make my class more enjoyable.

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That doesn’t fix dungeon content. For all the “shouldn’t balance around casual content” content is still content

And the rest of the suggestion is literally what savage already should be, why is ranks being able to outheal autos in savage even something that ever happened

And you say that stripping down tank discussion is reductive but it HAS to be part of the conversation because of how deeply tanks encroach on healer design. I don’t want the tank to be the healer while the healer does something else, if I’m in content as a healer it shouldn’t be a stretch to expect the healer to be the one actually healing because that’s what I find fun

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

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I can only comment from my own perspective a tank main, who usually goes for healer and supportive roles on other games, but dislikes the fact that all healers are bland mage jobs.

But I really think the amount that tanks have especially their self defensive value takes away from my own personal fun and enjoyment, I'd love it if it felt like tanks actually had to actively mitigate more wisely, they'd have to support allies through protective abilities (even including some healing).

I don't agree with we should look to HW (or even stormblood though i think stormblood did a lot right) because they were flawed for their own reasons, I think we should be looking on Innovating the systems and concept of tanking and healing as a whole rather then this crusade against tanks having any self/target healing being seen as tanks "taking away from healers"

I can understand healer frustrations as I do enjoy healing generally in games (though ff14 makes that very hard for me just from a design perspective of all healers having to be backline mages with how rigid and scared they are of making anything unique). But I rather not it be seen as "tanks op" it's really not that simple, Healers also have so many ogcd heals and insane healing creep to the point 90% of their kit isn't even needed on a dark knight, This is a issue with damage output and tanks having absurd mitigation value through baseline and cooldowns.

I think the idea that we have to discuss who gets to have fun tanks or healers just proves both roles aren't working in current design, I think moving forward we need to overhaul both, rather then the idea we should just take things from tanks. Healers will still be absurdly boring and it fixes nothing other then healers feeling slightly better that they can press one cooldown on a tank and appear to be useful now, we need to fundamentally look at how we can make both fun & strong and needed.

The solution strictly shouldn't be making everything warrior level in dungeons or any other content, to do that white mage would have a tank stance and be able to pull mobs keeping aggro and have bene on 25s along with super high defensive value, that would just be absurd and tanks would feel miserable that healers are doing everything they can do. I would frankly be bored and annoyed if they made healing from magic attacks per enemy on paladin because it would completely invalidate all my other cooldowns and proper cycling of mitigations. Looking at warrior for the ideal of job design shouldn't be the solution either.

I genuinely think if warrior kept some of its strengths just more reined in, but everything else was also balanced to be more fun around it and warrior possibly got more fitting tools then it could be way more fun, though there will always be a small amount of people who want to turn their brain off and solo everything, but frankly that shouldn't be catered to in a MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

We need to fundamentally look at how we can make both fun & strong and needed.

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All great points Rithris. And at the end of the day, this point here specifically is all I really want.

The game is better when we're all having fun playing it.

Former healer main here. Now Warrior main. If you cannot fight against the current, swim with it. Now I can sleep through every content.

Final Fantasy very easy mode

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

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This doesn't sound logical. You want the boss to hit harder so that healer can heal more, but why do that when SE can just... nerf WAR healing potency...? The result is the same after all.

Well, personally I want more DPS option for healer, since everything revolves around damage being the best mitigation in this game. But I wouldn't oppose to heal more as well. The problem is, there's only so much damage they can make the boss do before it become too much for the casual, which they will have to rebalance healers potency and tank survivability, again.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

This doesn't sound logical. You want the boss to hit harder so that healer can heal more, but why do that when SE can just... nerf WAR healing potency...? The result is the same after all.

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No, that's not what I want.

I was responding to someone asking a specific question, because they said they were a healer specifically to heal, and that the only thing they find fun is healing. In general, I'd like to see a solution Rithy255 talked about. They were able to word things a bit better than me.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

And the devs say time and time again that they HATE to do playstyle changing nerfs, and just went over that with the heat placed upon Pictomancer after FRU.

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And the devs do certainly have a stellar track record of preserving playstyles, right?

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I used to be one of the people that hated how Warriors could carry anything, but now I think *every* job should be more like Warrior in that a good player can do some insane stuff and feel great playing it. Warrior being cracked should be the example, not the exception.

I just hate the axe berserker fantasy. It doesn't fit me at all.

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There is nothing being skilled with pressing a button every 25s that does the healing of three benedictions back to back.
If we want to argue about skill expression while keeping the same model, then ShB WAR would probably qualify a little more since the healing was directly correlated to the damage dealt - why did they remove this? no idea, warrior brains wouldn't handle it I guess...

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

so if we rolled back to ARR / HW systems, I'd be fine with it; but, it's a different game now.

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If the excuse is that we can't change the game back to what it was because the game is a different game now, then it also admits that the game has changed enough to be a different game. If the game has changed enough, then it can also change enough once more to get to something more tolerable. Else it's just another argument for conservatism/conformism.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Make group content bosses hit tanks hard enough so they can't solo heal though it, so they can give you work. Add in some heal checks to keep you busy healing.

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I'm afraid I do not get that "kicking the can down the road" logic. If we buffed tanks on self healing and mitigation sky high to get where we are now, your solution would be to crank up sky high the mechanics that threaten them to overcome this? So we essentially have come full circle and essentially back to the start, except now that the difference between roles is even more lopsided than ever? Because everything that's not a tank already kicks the bucket in one hit or two even in casual content so imagine once encounters levels of threats would increase tenfold just to accommodate tanks that don't want to see their self healing nerfed?

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Originally Posted by Valence

If the excuse is that we can't change the game back to what it was because the game is a different game now, then it also admits that the game has changed enough to be a different game. If the game has changed enough, then it can also change enough once more to get to something more tolerable. Else it's just another argument for conservatism/conformism.

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I already addressed the last quote in my previous post replying to Kozh, so I'll reply to this point.

It's not going to be changed back, the systems of ARR/HW/StB are not coming back ever. As much as I prefer what the systems evolved to in StB. Those days are gone. Unless SE decides to start releasing FFXIV classic. We know this because Yoshi P addressed it recently saying -- the systems coming in 8.0 would be an expansion on the existing systems. Players who like the way things are can feel at ease that nothing is going to change for their experience. That they are going to do new things on top of what they already have. -- So they're going forward not backwards. That's the reality of the situation. If there was a possibility of getting them to roll-back, I'd be screaming for them to bring back StB systems. That was my favs in terms of how battle content worked and how classes played.

That's why, as I've been saying the whole time, I'd prefer a solution that makes things fun and enjoyable for healers, without taking away the fun from warriors.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

I already addressed the last quote in my previous post replying to Kozh, so I'll reply to this point.

It's not going to be changed back, the systems of ARR/HW/StB are not coming back ever. As much as I prefer what the systems evolved to in StB. Those days are gone. Unless SE decides to start releasing FFXIV classic. We know this because Yoshi P addressed it recently saying -- the systems coming in 8.0 would be an expansion on the existing systems. Players who like the way things are can feel at ease that nothing is going to change for their experience. That they are going to do new things on top of what they already have. -- So they're going forward not backwards. That's the reality of the situation. If there was a possibility of getting them to roll-back, I'd be screaming for them to bring back StB systems. That was my favs in terms of how battle content worked and how classes played.

That's why, as I've been saying the whole time, I'd prefer a solution that makes things fun and enjoyable for healers, without taking away the fun from warriors.

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Which still begs the question of how do you do that

Your offered solution was basically “stealth nerf WAR by buffing bosses”

Didn’t we see the futility of that strategy with the whole PCT drama in 7.1

HP is a little too volatile imo. The amount both tanks and healers can heal at once is really high, and they adjust unavoidable damage in early savage to be life or death without proper mitigation (which is a responsibility casters/melee share for some reason). Our kits are adjusted for that, which means it outclasses what pitiful damage normals are adjusted for.

The damage/heal ratio should be closer between the two, but just increasing the damage taken leaves us with less time to react when something goes wrong.

WHM suffers from this the most since their high on-demand hps kit doesn't really get to shine in anywhere but clutch situations in normals while their lack of a mit can't cover for a dps slacking in savage.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

So, I'd rather see SE work on spreading the fun around and keeping all classes valid, than invalidating healer or stripping down warrior.

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And what would that look like for a healer?

If you give me DPS buttons, I could as well play DPS.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

I dare any "healers aren't needed" to switch to a healer, run any of the dungeon roulette except leveling and then not heal at all.

The design of normal content is very much tuned for a party four randos, one of which is doing it for the first time, one hasn't played in a year and forgot and one is busy learning to juggle and is forced to play with one hand. And in such an environment, healers suddenly become relevant enough. Sure, a party of 3 red + blue or 4 red is faster. But if you're making a premade party and optimizing to run a generic dungeon in this game, you are not doing it the way a normal player would. All normal content is trivial when you got preplanned group and proper communication, healer or no healer.

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Not only do I do this on the regular. I have gone into Savage PF and used zero GCD heals while my co-healer used only four. Which weren't even necessary because we had regens. Now I haven't experimented with that as much this expansion, but the point remains the "but the rando!" argument doesn't exactly hold water. Yes, if you get bad players who stand in everything or whatnot, then a healer is invaluable. However, if those randoms are even mildly competent, you'll be standing around spamming your one button DPS ability in casual content more than anything else by an order of magnitude. And while you'll heal more come Savage, it's still significantly lower than it should be. Which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if healers were given other options. Instead, you're spamming that aforementioned button.

Just for reference sake, in a San d'Ori run, out of 398 casts throughout the entire raid, 80% of my actions were spent on Glare III, Dia and Glare IV. In fact, I used Sprint more than I used any GCD heal in all four encounters. That alone says everything about the state of healers.

Paladin is a stronger healer than WAR is, and is also the sole reason healer-less ulti clears exist.
Dungeons are so comcially under-tuned that you don't need a healer regardless of comp to clear them.
But people aren't willing to admit that yet.

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Originally Posted by DaKitten

So I've been seeing the "Healer not needed." comments again when people start talking about warrior.

As a healer main I kinda take issue with this, If another job is able to completely invalidate the existence of a role I actively enjoy.. Then it's kinda pointless to play that role and thus leaves me with one less thing to enjoy.

Enter stage right: Warrior.

Warrior has 2 HoT's in the form of equilibrium's buff and shake it off's secondary effect, one massive heal (again in the form of equilibrium), A party member heal in the form of nascent flash, and a self heal/shield/damage reduction in the form of bloodwhetting.

That just feels like too much at this point, feels as though SE might as well make my role (healer) into a DPS job and give every single job a self-heal, just remove the holy trinity at this rate.

I really didn't want to contribute to the "Healer strike" mentality that I saw back at dawntrail launch but at the same time it really is an issue people downplay.

Warrior needs a complete rework for the sake of the rest of the games balance.

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People asked for easier Gameplay and accessability. Now we have 5 Button PvP with no Gear and PvE Content tuned to not require Tanks or Healers. (In some cases, even ultimates get cleared without heals)

I guess people have to be more careful of what they ask for.

Surely a solution for Tanks' (especially WAR's) comical access to self-healing, a solution where a Tank still feels like they get to be incredibly surviveable, while also giving Healers back the job of 'actually restoring the HP of allies'...

Is to convert most/all of the 'heal self' actions of Tanks, into 'apply barrier to self'?

Yes, it runs the problem of 'oh that's DRK's thing, that'd be homogenization!', but DRK's playstyle shares a lot of elements with WAR now and has done since 5.0, so that ship has sailed halfway round the world already

Consider the following effects for WAR:

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Shake It Off: Applies 2 effects: A barrier equal to 20% of the target's Max HP (buffed to 20% to compensate for the 300p heal being folded in), and 5 stacks of Shake It Off (over time), a Barrier effect equal to a 100p heal. The 'over time' effect works like Haima/Panhaima, and when one barrier breaks, the next takes its place. This keeps the action being useful for the same purposes that the devs used to justify the heal and HOT (it wasn't good for mitigating party-wide DOTs or multihits), but makes it actually 'mitigate partywide DOTs and multihits' instead of healing through them. Also, I'd remove the 'consumes Thrill/Damnation/Bloodwhetting to boost potency' thing, it's so small as to be almost unnoticeable, and can just screw newer players by eating their 40% mit at a bad time if they forget it does that

Equilibrium: Applies a 1200p Barrier, and 5 stacks of Equilibrium, a 200p barrier effect. Works like Haima, when a layer of barrier is broken, the next takes its place. I've heard a certain bald streamer complain that WAR's lacking in the mit department compared to other Tanks, and Holmgang's shorter CD is the bandaid for that. This would give them another tool to use on TBs, and/or to help vs Autoattacks in place of something like Rampart (so you can save that for the TB instead)

Bloodwhetting: Applies a 400p Barrier on use (it already does this, Stem the Tide), and mitigates damage by 10% (or 10%+10% for the first 4 sec, as it currently does). Dealing damage to an enemy with a weaponskill applies Blood Frenzy, a Barrier equal to a 400p heal, for each enemy hit. If multiple enemies are struck with a single AOE attack, the barrier's effect is multiplied by the number of targets struck (so hitting 10 enemies means a 4000p barrier). The barrier effect lasts for 9s

Nascent Flash: Does the same thing as Bloodwhetting, but given to an ally. Both the ally targetted, and the WAR, will receive the effects of Blood Frenzy (what we currently know as the big heal)

Damnation: Applies 5 stacks of Damnation (over time), a Barrier equal to a 300p heal. Works like Haima, when a layer is broken, the next takes its place

Thrill of Battle: Can actually stay the same, the self-healing caused by your Max and Current HP being boosted by 20% does not cause the issues we're seeing

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With this, WAR is still incredibly tanky, and self-sufficient. Even moreso than currently, arguably, due to being able to throw up an Equilibrium for just about every TB. However, it isn't completely invulnerable. Bloodwhetting would allow a dungeon-running WAR player to be effectively immortal for the duration of BW (8s), and the 9s after due to the barrier it applies. But that totals 17 seconds of duration, and Bloodwhetting's CD is 25s. There's an 8 second window, where the WAR is taking damage to their actual HP bar, and doesn't have a way to heal that damage back to themselves. They can delay death for a damn long time via skillful gameplay, but they cannot delay it forever. That's what Tanking is meant to be about, with Healers being the other half of the equation, using that borrowed time to apply Healing, and further extend how long the Tank can stay alive for, to then buy time for the DPS to do their job, and kill the enemy.

Plus, this would actually play far more into the WAR 'fantasy' than the current form does. The concept of a Berserker, even looking at real life examples, was about how they'd get so angry/blinded with the battle high, that they'd ignore the pain they're sustaining. Its far more thematic for a WAR to 'fight through the pain via self-barrier' IMO, than this weird 'being so angry that your wounds magically mend themselves' idea. If anything, that was DRK's thing with Abyssal Drain and such, but I guess WAR co-opted that too (after co-opting Reprisal as a role action, and the idea of a gapcloser after DRKs looked like they were having too much fun using Plunge)

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Originally Posted by yesnt

And what would that look like for a healer?

If you give me DPS buttons, I could as well play DPS.

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The issue from the healer perspective is that tanks having the level of self-sustain they currently have makes most of each healer's tool-kit redundant, and we don't have an elaborate DPS system to make up the difference. Most healers ask for better DPS options because A) it could make solo content a little more interesting and B) tanks losing most of their self-sustain seems like a less likely outcome. The only time you get to dig deep is in bleeding edge content or cleaning up a disaster.

We used to have more DPS skills per capita as healers, and had to do things like stance dance Cleric Stance, but tanks were also much squishier and also had to stance dance from their aggro and DPS stances and make effort to keep aggro off of their team.


I've been doing the Panda raids on my Scholar. Excog and Eos are really all I've needed to keep my tank up, with Indom for raidwides. Chain, bio, broil broil broil broil, bio, broil broil broil.... you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Paladin is a stronger healer than WAR is, and is also the sole reason healer-less ulti clears exist.
Dungeons are so comcially under-tuned that you don't need a healer regardless of comp to clear them.
But people aren't willing to admit that yet.

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Probably also the fact that the matchmaking enforces the tank, 2 dps, healer setup, so people never notice how superfluous healers actually are in dungeons.
If you had the option to matchmake tank + 3 dps even the average player would notice it.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Probably also the fact that the matchmaking enforces the tank, 2 dps, healer setup, so people never notice how superfluous healers actually are in dungeons.
If you had the option to matchmake tank + 3 dps even the average player would notice it.

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That’s already in effect, healers are getting more dps in their kits than heals. I got the latest dungeon in my EX roulette and it was comically bad how little I had to heal. As such, it was holy spam and glare.

I would really enjoy if they made dungeons more dangerous as they were in the past.

Pull 12 mobs in an expert? Sure, it’s a snooze fest. Pull 12 mobs in deep dungeon without pomanders on floors 91+, are you insane? See the difference? They can do it, they just need to break from the formula.

I am not expecting this though as the game’s current course is to make content in 15 minute chunks, the days of a 30 min dungeon run is long gone. If anything, they may convert expert into a 3 boss random roulette with no trash and be done with it. That is what they are doing with Criterion.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I am not expecting this though as the game’s current course is to make content in 15 minute chunks, the days of a 30 min dungeon run is long gone. If anything, they may convert expert into a 3 boss random roulette with no trash and be done with it. That is what they are doing with Criterion.

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The reason things are like this in the first place is because most of the player base can't handle what you are requesting. You can run 10 experts today and half the players you meet don't use CDs (healing, dps, or tank mit), don't know what uptime is, can't figure out how a mechanic works after seeing it, don't know how their rotation works, etc. Square is forced to design dungeon content against players that legitimately struggle to play their jobs. That struggle with dungeon content tier difficulty.

It's a miracle that we saw dungeon mechanics ramp up a bit with this expansion. Unless Square finally says "git gud" and allows players the horrible experiencing of possibly wiping, what we see today won't meaningfully change.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

The issue from the healer perspective is that tanks having the level of self-sustain they currently have makes most of each healer's tool-kit redundant, and we don't have an elaborate DPS system to make up the difference. Most healers ask for better DPS options because A) it could make solo content a little more interesting and B) tanks losing most of their self-sustain seems like a less likely outcome. The only time you get to dig deep is in bleeding edge content or cleaning up a disaster.

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The other big points as to why some (me included) would prefer more DPS actions include 'it's way less effort for the devs to bring back old actions we used to have (eg by bringing back Miasma to SCH, since the animation/code still exists for NPCs to make use of)'

But the biggest thing IMO, is the extra interplay within the kit that it'd open up. WHM has Misery and Afflatus, a system where you use healing actions to prepare a damage action. We could see the reverse on other healers, especially SGE via Kardia, wherein dealing damage helps your healing in some way. SGE's Kardia having more modifiers, like making the healing AOE for a time, converting it to a Barrier effect, etc. Or how about SCH having multiple DOTs, and DOT ticks charging the Faerie gauge so that you can use Fey Union more often?

There's 3 basic categories a new action can fall into IMO: Damage, Healing/Mitigation, and Utility. By heavily trimming how many Damage actions Healers have in SHB, the devs painted themselves into a corner, closing the door on 33% of the potential design space for a new action. It's why they said 'we didn't really know what to add to SCH' in EW's media tour, when showing Expedient off. Meanwhile, if we didn't remove all the DOTs from SCH, we could have seen... IDK, a new gauge element where DOT ticks charge up a burst damage move such as Meltdown (or Kaustra as it was known in FFXI)

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

It's a miracle that we saw dungeon mechanics ramp up a bit with this expansion. Unless Square finally says "git gud" and allows players the horrible experiencing of possibly wiping, what we see today won't meaningfully change.

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Funny thing, you can design Jobs, especially Healers in particular, to have an incredibly low skill floor, and still have complexity for the players like me. It's precisely because we have lower Job kit complexity, a lower skill ceiling, that SE had to compensate by ramping up the difficulty of encounters. Problem is, I (in the days where I didn't know my Job, SCH at the time, so well) could 'opt out' of the complexity, by not using all of my DOTs, not using Cleric Stance, etc. and we'd still clear the dungeon. A less skilled player going through Dawntrail's MSQ isn't going to be able to 'opt out' of the complexity of the Elevator Boss in Origenics, and the Trusts move to the 'safe spot' far too late to watch and copy them, so late in fact that if you moved with their timing, you'd get killed by the snapshotting.

SE traded 'optional complexity' for 'mandatory complexity', and the only way for a player who can't keep up, to avoid the now-mandatory complexity, is to just avoid doing that content. So that results in everybody being silo'd off into their own tiny worlds, based on what difficulty level of content they're comfortable with/find engaging. SE's now made a scaling-difficulty encounter with Quantum. They wouldn't need Quantum, if optimizing your Job kits was the 'scaling difficulty' element of the encounter, as it was in the past! They're inventing solutions to the problems of their own design, problems that they created for themselves

Imagining a rework to the Healers wherein there's more damage actions. Let's say, WHM's Dia is reduced to a 12s duration (potency adjusted to compensate), and a new action, Banish, is added with a 15s CD. If Johnny Roulette gets through his run of Meso Terminal by using Medica3 and Regen, and basically zero damage buttons, I heavily doubt the number of players who complain about 'why aren't you using your DOT, why aren't you using Banish' would be statistically significant. And if someone did say such things, they're breaking the TOS and can be reported

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

The reason things are like this in the first place is because most of the player base can't handle what you are requesting. You can run 10 experts today and half the players you meet don't use CDs (healing, dps, or tank mit), don't know what uptime is, can't figure out how a mechanic works after seeing it, don't know how their rotation works, etc. Square is forced to design dungeon content against players that legitimately struggle to play their jobs. That struggle with dungeon content tier difficulty.

It's a miracle that we saw dungeon mechanics ramp up a bit with this expansion. Unless Square finally says "git gud" and allows players the horrible experiencing of possibly wiping, what we see today won't meaningfully change.

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Even then the "ramp up" has been a mixed bag as half of it is actually good design with complexity and the other is hoping your ISP actually registered you were in the safe spot when SE demanded it and the game in front of your eyes said you were. I like DT's battle design so much, but when I keep dying under the upped speed despite having great internet for my area, it's demoralizing.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

Even then the "ramp up" has been a mixed bag as half of it is actually good design with complexity and the other is hoping your ISP actually registered you were in the safe spot when SE demanded it and the game in front of your eyes said you were. I like DT's battle design so much, but when I keep dying under the upped speed despite having great internet for my area, it's demoralizing.

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This is where I would like to see them get rid of one shot mechanics, and use stacking debuffs that make things worse for you and ultimately, and end either in your demise, or cessation of all of your DPS. For the raids, I would have you take so many stacking debuffs and you die. For dungeons it would mean that you are unable to DPS for period of time. This would force more creativity and encounter designs and make for more forgiving experiences for people, especially who have latency issues.

I would also add an option where healers can remove so many debuffs with a long cool down spell. This would make for greater flexibility and allow a team to carry someone who might be having issues, but is otherwise a good player or a friend.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

This is where I would like to see them get rid of one shot mechanics, and use stacking debuffs that make things worse for you and ultimately, and end either in your demise, or cessation of all of your DPS. For the raids, I would have you take so many stacking debuffs and you die. For dungeons it would mean that you are unable to DPS for period of time. This would force more creativity and encounter designs and make for more forgiving experiences for people, especially who have latency issues.

I would also add an option where healers can remove so many debuffs with a long cool down spell. This would make for greater flexibility and allow a team to carry someone who might be having issues, but is otherwise a good player or a friend.

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That makes me wonder if maybe making the nerfs we take from vulnerability and brink of death worse might be better than things that kill you in 2 hits.

The vulnerability system is flawed and it affects non tanks much harder.
How many times we see tanks with 6+ stacks of vulnerability and it barely makes any difference.

It would make more sense if these stacks were also role based:

DPS: Damage Down
Healer: Heal Down
Tank: Mitigation Down

That said, let's be honest, they need to decide if they want a trinity system.

You can't have a trinity system and then not enforce it lol

If you remove healing thing from tanks then nobody will solo maps anymore. Most people enjoy soloing maps and so do I. I have done plenty of new level 100 map solo on either Paladin or Warrior. It's not easy but with proper cooldown management it's possible. May also had better experience with Paladin as I endured more than with Warrior.

GNB and DRK are the ones that can't solo anything reliably as they have meager heals and that's totally fine. Not every tank should be equal.

Edit: Heals from warr are also useful when you run dungeons with people who are afk, stand in aoes, die 99x times and say "sorry first time" and chat more than they follow mechanics, yeah. Your abilities may save someone and prolong dungeon run instead of wipe.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

The no healer ultimate and savage runs would like to have a word with you.

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Are you referring to those extremely niche setups that you see the videos of by hyper-skilled groups ?

Because that would be a incredibly poor example, especially since the first no-healer FRU clear involved 4 Paladins a Red mage, Pictomancer, Reaper and Dancer.

If they don't want you to clear it without healer by design, then they wouldn't make it possible no matter what you did. They've gone back to fix odd stuffs like EX Ramuh being doable without tanks. In the case for healers? They.just.don't.care.

Yup, perfectly healthy thing :P

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

If they don't want you to clear it without healer by design, then they wouldn't make it possible no matter what you did. They've gone back to fix odd stuffs like EX Ramuh being doable without tanks. In the case for healers? They.just.don't.care.

Yup, perfectly healthy thing :P

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I have a feeling that healers as a job will be phased out and transformed into Support.

This means they will support the tanks and DPS with beneficial spells as well a some healing. You will have ranged support (magical) as well as melee support (slashing/piercing weapons). Having one range and one melee style support would allow for different types of gameplay for their DPS component of their role. They won’t be as potent as a dedicated DPS but their utility would make up for that as the haste, damage up, mitigation shields would be all for them.

As a career white mage, I could work with a change like this as we are already mostly there.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

If you remove healing thing from tanks then nobody will solo maps anymore. Most people enjoy soloing maps and so do I. I have done plenty of new level 100 map solo on either Paladin or Warrior. It's not easy but with proper cooldown management it's possible. May also had better experience with Paladin as I endured more than with Warrior.

GNB and DRK are the ones that can't solo anything reliably as they have meager heals and that's totally fine. Not every tank should be equal.

Edit: Heals from warr are also useful when you run dungeons with people who are afk, stand in aoes, die 99x times and say "sorry first time" and chat more than they follow mechanics, yeah. Your abilities may save someone and prolong dungeon run instead of wipe.

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Maps literally have solo maps for this exact reason. Not so you can use overpowered tanks to solo 8 man maps

And I’m not sure “hey guys I’d rather chat than play the dungeon” is a great excuse either for why tanks should have that much margin for error

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I have a feeling that healers as a job will be phased out and transformed into Support.

This means they will support the tanks and DPS with beneficial spells as well a some healing. You will have ranged support (magical) as well as melee support (slashing/piercing weapons). Having one range and one melee style support would allow for different types of gameplay for their DPS component of their role. They won’t be as potent as a dedicated DPS but their utility would make up for that as the haste, damage up, mitigation shields would be all for them.

As a career white mage, I could work with a change like this as we are already mostly there.

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Idk maybe we can just get better mitigation and then run everything solo as overpowered sages? It sounds like a fair deal to me.