FF14 has abandoned their mid core players and thats why its failing.

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Originally Posted by FuturePastNow

I am never going to do any piece of content in this game that requires memorizing a 20 page raidplan

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This is what a lot of people categorizing extreme trials and sometimes even savage as midcore tend to miss.

Either way, beyond everybody having different metrics for what is softcore, midcore and hardcore (time spent, preparation, difficulty, execution, coordination, whatever floats your boat), what the OP did was using those words instead of actual metrics that aren't used as wedge issues by the playerbase: the main difference between two main types of content in the core PVE of the game right now is raidplan vs no raidplan. One can blind prog extremes and up, but the fact that you still have to write even if just in your head those multiple pages of raidplans is something that pushes a lot of the playerbase away, and I'm saying this as a player that has raided for a long time, they also do push me away especially today in DDR lalaland. The tragedy is that it becomes extremely difficult to actually challenge players in such an environment today without immediately jumping into heavy raidplan territory for the very reason that there is no difficulty left at the RPG battlesystem level and the job's difficulty.

There is also a secondary metric that people already hinted at that is recoverability of fights, which goes hand in hand with the aforementioned RPG battlesystems we have lost: if it's a body check or an instant wipe mechanic, it's automatically going to push away the same population that doesn't want to deal with that kind of binary difficulty. The current issue is that it's very hard to provide casual difficulty or complexity because those systems have been completely removed from the game (resource management, party synergy, and a sustain based job/party system). It wasn't rare before ShB to have parties crumble down and wipe not because of bodychecks or gotcha mechanics, but because the party slowly got overwhelmed by damage and mechanics, or was left with no MP to continue, which offered a much more organic level of difficulty than BRAINLESS <<<< OR >>>> HARDCORE.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

What new combat...? Honestly, it feels almost insulting that the reason we didn't get a better job design is because of what we got in Dawntrail (supposedly after 7.2).

Combat still looks the same to me. Better than Endwalker? Sure is, but still adheres to the same old formula of over-scripted fights with mirrored mechanics and symmetrical spots matching the ground tiles. Cleave left, then right? You got it! I may be told naive, but from what was hyped during the Fanfests, I truly expected big changes and not some occasional moments like the M2S beelines or M6S adds.

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Yes honestly the only thing Dawntrail actually introduced is a much faster pace with overlapping mechanics relying more on often obnoxious visual cues from the boss or the arena, and call it "new encounter design".

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

savage is literally midcore with minor exceptions, so is chaotic, and if anything requiring nothing but a pulse is casual, then even extrials are.

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If 'in practice’ you can't clear it, both without a guide, and also by queueing 'easily and quickly at almost any moderately populated time of your leisure', then it's is NOT midcore.

Neither extremes nor savage can be cleared without guides while they are current, not by any significant population saving those who would go onto to ultimate.

I think part of it is also how many 'clears' (not work) is required for the major rewards. Extreeme farms are not midcore because the atmosphere is sweaty and moody, created by peoples intolerance of poor performance created by the pressure to clear clear clear.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That's the same thing as being afraid. That's exactly what I mean when I say they are afraid. They are afraid of being judged or not being flawless. That's the definition of anxiety. Fearing a future possible scenario that may not even happen.

Back in Heavensward, I filled up a linkshell (128 people) in two days that was aimed at people who were anxious at trying out raids. That's how widespread this issue is. You can fill a linkshell with anxious people that want to raid but are afraid to in just days.

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No it is not the same at all Jeeqbit.
I cleared Ex1, Ex2, Ex3. Loved progressing. However, every time I went into a farm party it was just miserable. It wasn't fun. It was MOST often the opposite. And it was the people, their mood, the way they acted.
Then I tried Chaotic and a lot of the progress, I was seeing the same antisocial behaviours.
Then I tried Ex4 prog, and now I was similar antisocial behaviour in prog. People rowing over interpretation of strategies and performance, or worst of all just bailing prematurely.
(If I could only have one cheap fix, it would be that anyone who bails on a party is locked out of that instance for 36 hours. Griefer? vote kick or leader kick, and a kicked person cant join a party with that leader for 36 hours. None of that is hard to code.)

I can assure you that I was not 'afraid'. I have no 'fear' about getting in chat to defend someone who is being picked on. And afterwards it's not anxiousness in the slightest I feel about the prospect of requeing, its just disdain. I had good experience, and it just wasn't fun. I didn't even want to prog because I want my reward, but I also want fun, and I'm not enduring those farm parties.

I think you are deluding yourself if you don't believe that a lot of people have tried it, do accurately know it, but just don't like it. Its not midcore. Its not fear. I think you are also deluding yourself if you don't believe that for a lot of those that haven't tried it, that a lot of those if they did, would come to the same conclusion, it's not fun. It's actually unpleasant.

Savage is midcore content.

It's the hardcore content that's lacking in FFXIV with 1 ultimate a year.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

If 'in practice’ you can't clear it, both without a guide, and also by queueing 'easily and quickly at almost any moderately populated time of your leisure', then it's is NOT midcore.

Neither extremes nor savage can be cleared without guides while they are current, not by any significant population saving those who would go onto to ultimate.

I think part of it is also how many 'clears' (not work) is required for the major rewards. Extreeme farms are not midcore because the atmosphere is sweaty and moody, created by peoples intolerance of poor performance created by the pressure to clear clear clear.

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No. Hardcore content is stuff that takes 100s of hours of prog to get it down. Ex and savage are easily completable by the average player with some knowledge of how to play their job.

My group cleared the latest EX fight blind in 1 lockout. How on earth is that hardcore.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Savage is midcore content.

It's the hardcore content that's lacking in FFXIV with 1 ultimate a year.

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Whatever. You make the game what you want. Not my problem anymore.

Debating with use of arbitrary term like 'midcore' never gets anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

[...]I may be told naive, but from what was hyped during the Fanfests, I truly expected big changes and not some occasional moments like the M2S beelines or M6S adds[...]

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Funnily enough, those two things seemed to be receiving a lot of disdain from certain type of players. Just shows how far removed people are from anything that's not "Stand here, do the dance, or die".

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I'm honestly completely confused on what the majority of the playerbase thinks midcore is. I always assumed midcore was extremes, first three savage fights, Deep dungeon, field exploration, ect. Really anything that has a bit of a challenge but not overly challenging. M6S definitely seemed out of the range of midcore, but that's a fringe case.

I've been told by the casual playerbase that the new dungeons are not casual, they're midcore, and I was told normal raids are midcore because the casual players don't do them.

Honestly I think the playerbase is divided on what midcore even is.

I agree we need more content that is slightly challenging, I'd say fights that might take roughly 25-50 pulls blind to clear and is easy to get into, but I know a lot of the playerbase disagrees with me on that.

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The main difference between players is in how they use their time. If you are logged in the game for 6 hrs each day, you are a hardcore player. If you put it in perspective, you can draw a parallel between doom-scrolling TikTok and actually reading a book/ learning something new.

Most of the "arguments" offered by people who deliberately avoid the "hardcore" content are just excuses for mediocrity and a refusal to step out of their comfort zone. That is, if you do not have a diagnosed disability provided by a certified professional.

i wanna be fair and square, final fantasy has been made for casual, mid core, even the worst fight in the game can be cleared with a little practice and learning to dance, if you have an hint on how to play your roles.
you havent chose the right game to put yourself into challenges. but every content in the game imo is enjoyable, has long the whole party agree to enjoy and laugh at mistakes, learn and do better next time.

I don't even know what mid-core means. I would consider myself a casual, and open to doing pretty much anything except ultimate, but I guess in the eyes of others, it's not the same.
I thought the hardcore/midcore phrases and such was just how much time someone and effort someone would be willing to dedicate themselves to the EX/Savage/Ultimate/ whatever content upon release.

well, to me, mid core means "the commun gamer" the one that will invest time on a game and play the best he can with what he knows, that is plenty enough for ff14.
a hardcore gamer, will raise at sunlight with a game open to keep on searching things on how to improve and do better then the average player, try to be better then himself each day he spent on the game and try to find always a better challenge

to be fair games for hardcore gamers are rare nowadays.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Savage is midcore content.

It's the hardcore content that's lacking in FFXIV with 1 ultimate a year.

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recently someone said to me there is too little casual content in the game. with only the island and quests being casual. dungeons arent casual they said.

now whos in the right?

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Originally Posted by vincexorcized

And there’s good “midcore” content like deep dungeons, Eureka and Bozja.

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Bro didn't even say "Occult Crescent" which is the current "midcore" content of the expansion. Then he says to go play mahjong in an MMO to make it fun. That's how cooked this game is right now :p

The WoW exodus of 2021? Could've been avoided if they just played Mahjong. Classic blunder.

would pay 20-25 Euro per month, if was more bite to the games content in general and every day being somewhat different.

In reality 14-15 Euro per month is like what it costed 25 years ago for a subscription to an MMO.

This game isn't going to rebound because the one at the helm, Yoshi P, doesn't know wtf to do anymore. Guy just pushes what he wants instead of what the playerbase wants and what an MMORPG needs. No more of his excuses. The apology tour tropes are over. Player count has plummeted worse than any other time period. Remove that man and get someone fresh in to revitalize the game.

They need to break up how formulistic the game is. From everything, patch schedule to the story, to dungeon design, it's all been repeated the same every expansion. I think that hits a little closer to the main issue.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

would pay 20-25 Euro per month, if was more bite to the games content in general and every day being somewhat different.

In reality 14-15 Euro per month is like what it costed 25 years ago for a subscription to an MMO.

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Do that and people move to WoW as they are already doing. Also you do realize that they are already milking so much with cash shop? They earn plenty money, they just put all those investments to other projects that are failing.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It basically is but there are many players that are afraid to even try out Extreme or Unreal purely on the basis of the "High-End" categorization and no other reason. Often parties ask them to look up guides or put a load of acronyms they don't understand, so they don't even try.

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I disagree with that. Midcore in mmo used to be those players that spend a lot of time in game, but don't participate in things that rely on heavy group organisation, like high difficulty prog, world first race, basically anything that ask you to scheldule your life around the game. Same content can be in several categories depending of how you engage with it. Old field operation were pretty casual if you only did the story, but became the definition of midcore if you farmed several relics. If you pick up extreme on the fly, it's midcore. If you do them with a static and scheldule it, it's belong to hardcore.

Casual/midcore/hardcore were terms that described the way the players engaged with the game, but now people seem to think it's some kind difficulty lvl. I feel like labelling the content as one of those losing something design wise, since the same content could be enjoyed several ways. When you design your content as midcore content, you end shrinking your window of opportunity. And the sad thing is that the dev seem to follow that thinking. That's how we ended with FTB : they wanted to design midcore content but because people continue to say midcore is extreme and low savage, it ended being far from the midcore people expected from that content. Because they reduced midcore to a few factors...

And everyone should stop with the "afraid" narrative. People are not afraid. It just ask them more than what they bother giving to the game. This mentality of player being "afraid to" is one of the thing that lead to the Chaotic and FTB fiascos, and the whole nothing to do complaints. The belief that with the right incentives, everyone will flock to those content is just wrong. There is plenty of players that have the lvl to do Extreme that just don't bother because they don't want to deal with PF or statics. There are also plenty of players that use to do extreme, savage or even ultimate that stopped because they did want to involve that much into the game anymore. Those are proof that most of the time it's not about being "afraid".

The afraid argument is something defended by dellusionnal players that don't want to accept if the people don't do those content, it's mostly because don't want to, or that have an ego problem, and somehow feel superior for being the ones "not afraid to go into harder content", and see everyone else as peasant or useless.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

The afraid argument is something defended by dellusionnal players that don't want to accept if the people don't do those content, it's mostly because don't want to, or that have an ego problem, and somehow feel superior for being the ones "not afraid to go into harder content", and see everyone else as peasant or useless.

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I've said this before, but I filled up a linkshell aimed at players anxious about trying to do this content and it filled in 2 days. I've also met loads of players that express this anxiety over the last 10 years. Maybe there are players whom are not avoiding it due to anxiety, but it is definitely one of the big reasons. People don't have confidence in their own skills etc because snapshotting gets them all the time as well.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Not all players who don't try out extreme trials, unreal trials and savage raids are afraid to them being categorized as high-end content, it's the toxicity they don't want deal with for not able to do everything 100% perfectly all the time.

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So I kind of want to double down on and add to your point. I personally don't get bothered by any toxicity though it can be 1 of the problems people face. For me personally I ran into other issues. I did do higher end content. It started by me completing all of the blue mage carnival stuff, then saying okay well I might as well do savage and ultimates. I studied and learned those fights (just like I would some of the blue mage fights), and what I found was that the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze, at least not for me.

My FC at the time didn't have the raiders to get a static going and quitting that FC to join another that did that would be silly and was off the table. I already spent time learning the stuff outside the game, I didn't want to have to then try to hop and find other discords (also outside the game) just to do a single instanced fight inside the game. If people want to come at me about that, that's fine, but its poor game design if that is a requirement. My last option was pugging. I remember my first time being so god damn bored. The waiting for the pug, and then actually running the fight for 3 hours just to not clear it even though by all means I knew the fight at that point. We all had the right gear for the fight but some people just couldn't do the mechanics. I get it, that some people like this kind of thing, but after continuing on that trend for a while and finally getting the clear I was over it.

I did hard fights in FFXI (also games like diablo, OSRS, etc.), and as a MIDCORE player, I liked the preparation. I liked understanding how the game needed to be played. I liked customizing my gear, and even gear swaping/role swapping when needed to fight that specific set of mobs or boss. I even liked doing skill chains syncing up with other players. This "dance" thing, while for the most part just doing the same rotation over and over because skills are just plain damage mitigation, or healing, isn't very fun to me. It's too scripted. Like I feel it COULD be fun to me on occasion, but currently the game either has piss poor easy content, or ultra scripted do this thing perfectly content with no room for any design in between, or real reason or incentive to even climb to the top.

Idk man I hope that's relevant and valuable for people to maybe understand perspecitves a little more. Plus idk afk waiting in a city and instance queuing for these things which all take us to a platform feels very "mobile" game like to me. js and no hate. It has it's place, but it shouldn't be the ONLY place.