"We're people too." To the producer and Dev team of this MMORPG

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I dont know if Yoshida's crocodile tears technique works in a post dawntrail world.

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The image of him shedding a single tear, as he pockets my sub money... fine art...

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Meanwhile, over a decade ago...
https://i.imgur.com/sTyvvk4.png

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The problem is that some people interpret this as a free pass to engage in an unlimited amount of toxic and entitled behaviour.

(this post is addressed to everyone btw, not you specifically)

Laying out constructive criticism in a respectful and sensible manner? Great, go ahead!
Acting as if the devs murdered your family over the smallest of perceived slights? (this part of the video game isn't quite the way you'd like) Not so great.

The latter is presumably what Yoshida was talking about. In this community, especially here on the forums, there's a tendency to villainize the developers to an absurd degree and indeed forget that they're people making a video game for us to enjoy. The greater their passion, the greater the product we'll receive; so excessive hostility is unproductive.

You can disagree with their decisions and vocally complain about them, but always think before you post. You pay for the game but you do so voluntarily, and what you're paying for is the game the way it is now. It's good if the devs listen to player feedback and make improvements, but they're under no direct obligation to implement everything that's asked for. If you're getting so worked up over the game that you're making threads like "This new hat is UNACCEPTABLE, they're GASLIGHTING us over it and need to be FIRED!!!" (for a slightly hyperbolic example) then you probably need to take a step back and chill out. Hence my recommendation to go outside.

Don't get me wrong, I've also been guilty of this at times - and it gets tiring. We'd all be better off being a little more thoughtful in our critiques.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I wonder if it's a cultural difference? I notice a lot of Asian games tend to just spell everything out for you and then also repeat it for good measure.

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this could be the case? i don't have my own personal reference off the top of my head to compare, but if this is a reoccurring theme in asian games then i could see it.

is anyone here asian who grew up/around this sort of storytelling? is this something that frustrated you or is it normal for you?

i am curious about this

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Originally Posted by Underscore

The problem is that some people interpret this as a free pass to engage in an unlimited amount of toxic and entitled behaviour.

(this post is addressed to everyone btw, not you specifically)

You can disagree with their decisions and vocally complain about them, but always think before you post. You pay for the game but you do so voluntarily, and what you're paying for is the game the way it is now. It's good if the devs listen to player feedback and make improvements, but they're under no direct obligation to implement everything that's asked for. If you're getting so worked up over the game that you're making threads like "This new hat is UNACCEPTABLE, they're GASLIGHTING us over it and need to be FIRED!!!" (for a slightly hyperbolic example) then you probably need to take a step back and chill out. Hence my recommendation to go outside.

Don't get me wrong, I've also been guilty of this at times, and it gets tiring. We'd all be better off being a little more thoughtful in our critiques.

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Any criticism, praise or suggestions they get from any of us paying customers is part of the "everyone" no exclusions.

So you agree with what is said collectively people filing out; they are not enjoying the content and therefore
They are no longer volunteering their time and money to the game

It is not good when people feel unheard, ofc they are going to get toxic eventually when they are constantly met with excuses, apologies and no changes.
if the MMO keeps going like it is people are not going to keep giving them solutions like I did before they're going to get apathetic that will kill the MMO the producer told us that if they keep being short they would have to consider going up on subs this being short on money is because of lack of QA from the dev team and mismanagement of previous funds on the corp's part.

Just because they are being criticized does not mean we that are asking for them to do better or at the very least as good as they were are being entitled, I feel like people that defend them because of the toxic feedback they get from some few people are being over sensitive so if you insulate them from any criticism then how are they supposed to improve?

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Originally Posted by Exmo

The irony is probably lost on you that in that thread you were calling for a developer of this game to be fired from her job, and in this thread you're arguing the developers should not be seen as people. Yoshi-P's comment was so perfectly curated towards you, if you only had a shred of empathy.

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Explain where I have said that they should not be seen as people. I'm curious can you quote anything or will you make more stuff up.
quite obvious you did not read what was said so why are you even here talking?

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Originally Posted by Underscore

... The greater their passion, the greater the product we'll receive; so excessive hostility is unproductive.

... You pay for the game but you do so voluntarily, and what you're paying for is the game the way it is now...

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It sounds good. But it's an oversimplification, which is the most pernicious (my word of the day it seems) of all falsehoods, and it also presumes to declare other subjective interpretations of history, incorrect, which would border on patronising if not worse.

People have spent getting on for half a decade criticizing nicely, and reasonably, and it didn't work. Frankly, I'm rather inclined to think that taking the gloves off and coming out swinging from the hips at anything that moves may perhaps have been required, to mobilise the exodus, and ensure the criticisms are clear. I could go into detail, but i don't presume people should be bashed over the head with my interpretation until they can't be bothered to voice their disagreement.

As for paying for the game. We paid for a promise. We paid for a reasonable expectation.
Quite a lot of money actually when you consider what we got.
I'm sorry the content of Dawntrail, at $60 preorder, when you compare that to the effort at work and detail , all original not recycled, that you get for most non service titles. When your compare that even just to previous expansions, was dismal.
Where was the offer of partial refunds.
Where was my option for a refund of the remaining three weeks on my sub when i decided after the first week that what I got was just awful.


So for the second time this thread, I say No.

And it's a multiplayer service game, so please noone suggest I should just wait two or three weeks to get the spoiled version from the opinion of those relatable bastions of culture and the down to earth editorial on YouTube.
So No. Respectfully, I'm sorry, but no.

And do please be careful with "go outside". People shouldn't have to be polite to anything that even sniffs of "if your burned out it sounds like you should leave and unsub". It is known by all, concerning all that would not be welcome.

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

Explain where I have said that they should not be seen as people. I'm curious can you quote anything or will you make more stuff up.
quite obvious you did not read what was said so why are you even here talking?

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^No acknowledgment of the fact that you were calling for a dev to be fired, in full contradiction of the compassion requested by Yoshi-P. Disappointing but not surprising.

Your entire gist with this thread is "you are people, HOWEVER". You elevate your perceived right to attack and criticize the devs over their personhood. This is how you explicitly choose to frame your argument, thereby validating the toxicity that prompted Yoshi-P's plea to the community. You could have taken an alternate approach that did not undermine the quote but instead you heard "we're people too" and your reaction was to say "that matters less than my desire to criticize you".

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Originally Posted by Underscore

snip

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The problem is that after the success of SB they forgot all those slides. Every single one.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

^No acknowledgment of the fact that you were calling for a dev to be fired, in full contradiction of the compassion requested by Yoshi-P. Disappointing but not surprising.

Your entire gist with this thread is "you are people, HOWEVER". You elevate your perceived right to attack and criticize the devs over their personhood. This is how you explicitly choose to frame your argument, thereby validating the toxicity that prompted Yoshi-P's plea to the community. You could have taken an alternate approach that did not undermine the quote but instead you heard "we're people too" and your reaction was to say "that matters less than my desire to criticize you".

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That's just your strawman and weird interpretation to fit your own narrative at work.
You do know we can read the OP ourselves?
Meaning we can see your deranged strawman for what it is.

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Originally Posted by ViinaS

That's just your strawman and weird interpretation to fit your own narrative at work.
You do know we can read the OP ourselves?
Meaning we can see your deranged strawman for what it is.

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"Strawman"

https://64.media.tumblr.com/4706f831...rabdij_540.jpg

This thread is full of people telling OP to touch grass but nobody's saying you can't criticize the game. Figure out why.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

"The quality of the game has gone down, the writing should be more aimed towards adults like it used to be. The game is a whole lot of untapped potential that lacks care and innovation in a lot of departments. Do better. You are being paid monthly."

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Since we have some certain individuals that want to drag the conversation down again with emotional blackmail and bad faith arguments, I asked chatgpt to rephrase your statement in the style of a Xianxia cultivation novel for fun and to refocus on your point.

"This so-called 'Golden Core' is a pitiful mockery of its former brilliance. In ages past, its essence resonated with the clarity and depth suited for those who had stepped beyond the Mortal Realm true cultivators of discernment. But now? It has been reduced to a shallow construct, lacking both refinement and spiritual weight.

The potential lies dormant, vast as a boundless sea, yet no one dares to channel it. The sect responsible shows neither the ingenuity of a Formation Master nor the care of an Alchemy Elder. Where is the innovation? Where is the soul?

Do not forget you are sustained monthly by spirit stones offered willingly by the faithful. This mediocrity is unworthy of such tribute. Temper your hearts, refine your craft, and return with something worthy of the Heavenly Dao."

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But really, goodwill is a hard earned currency that often gets spent carelessly. When people get used to being handed a poorly produced and written product time and time again, many will just leave. And it'll sound heartless, but the average consumer doesn't care about things going on underneath, whether it be game dev, consumable goods, streamers, or whatever. The average consumer only cares whether the end-product is good/well made or not. We'll see if they realize that or not. I hope they do.

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"We are people too."

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Yeah, I know you are. That's why you shouldn't be working on 6 (or however many) different projects at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

It is not good when people feel unheard, ofc they are going to get toxic eventually when they are constantly met with excuses, apologies and no changes.

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Toxicity is not "ofc."

SE isn't holding a gun to anyone's head. SE isn't a foreign power that has invaded your country and dropped bombs on your home.

Toxicity here is a choice, and one that I suspect many would shy away from were it not for the anonymity that the Internet often provides for.

The thing about toxicity or angry rants is that it doesn't achieve anything. It's not more persuasive than being polite. You do not have to demonstrate how angry you are, make threats, or insult people to display your conviction and send in feedback. All it does is make you more likely to be discounted or your feedback to not even be read.

People here are saying that it's justified because they don't see the changes they want to happen in the game. Whether it's justified or not, it's not useful. And you also have to understand the developers perspective and recognize that not everyone agrees with your point of view. There are many players and they all want different things from the game.

It should be noted that his statement that the devs are people too came right after he gave a long explanation of how he tries to read all feedback, to set aside his personal emotions, and see what the person is trying to say and their point of view. Being insulting in your post only makes it that much harder for them to understand you.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...bc70a2e268434&

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

It is not good when people feel unheard, ofc they are going to get toxic eventually when they are constantly met with excuses, apologies and no changes.

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Well adjusted adults do not get toxic when they don't get their way. That's what entitled children throwing tantrums do.

No matter how unhappy you are with the direction of the game it is never okay to harass the devs, or anyone else for that matter. Yoshida has no problem with criticism and actively encourages everyone to leave such feedback here. All he's saying with the snippet you're quoting is to not make vile attacks toward the dev team. There shouldn't be anything controversial about that request for anyone who isn't an awful human being.

A.) Yes, we as customers are free to criticize them. However, we also have to be mature enough to acknowledge that it's their game to design, not ours. What we don't have is the right to "demand" anything, nor does it come off as anything but immature and sad if we personally attack them. They get to make the game they want; we get to decide whether the game they make is worth our time and money.

B.) The other fallacy we can fall into is mistaking subjective opinion for objective fact. For example, I'm very much enjoying DT and have been the entire expansion. Saying things like "poorer quality" need to be acknowledged as personal opinions.

C.) The game could still lose about 50% more of its playerbase and still be very healthy. It's not bleeding money - it's one of SE's biggest money makers. The population is still well above the ARR-->SB days when the game was already acknowledged as having a healthy population, and that was before the cosmetic cash shop really took off.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Well adjusted adults do not get toxic when they don't get their way. That's what entitled children throwing tantrums do.

No matter how unhappy you are with the direction of the game it is never okay to harass the devs, or anyone else for that matter. Yoshida has no problem with criticism and actively encourages everyone to leave such feedback here. All he's saying with the snippet you're quoting is to not make vile attacks toward the dev team. There shouldn't be anything controversial about that request for anyone who isn't an awful human being.

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Who here is harassing the devs? The English speaking community is quite tame in comp to Jp from what I read earlier
so curious who can you point out here for being toxic and harassing devs.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Toxicity is not "ofc."

SE isn't holding a gun to anyone's head. SE isn't a foreign power that has invaded your country and dropped bombs on your home.

Toxicity here is a choice, and one that I suspect many would shy away from were it not for the anonymity that the Internet often provides for.

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You will receive toxicity when people feel unheard same even in regular relationships the world itself even without anonymity is quite a toxic place if you want to get rid of toxic people they need a better environment something neither of us has the power to give square can't give it either.

Internet anonymity.... that is the main stay of why the internet is such a good place and a deep thing to take from people
it would be a far less safe place for sure if we gave our info over to these random sites and corps
data breeches happen all the time do you really feel like if you knew who the rando that said x was it would be a nicer place?

That is an odd thing to attack especially with how unhinged people have already shown themselves to be outside the internet.
like there was a guy that had a stalker plug in some time ago that messed with the blacklist would you yourself post on these sites if a crazy that disagreed with you or hated you for your features could decide to show up to your house? I mean you don't want us to be anonymous anymore that is one of the consequences of letting your info be shared on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Exinias

"If you refuse to listen to us..." You lose all credibility at this point.

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How so? granted they have been listening... to the 3 vocal JP people who want their game more sloppeh

My opinion on them has become scorched Earth. I'm gonna say something out of pocket if I think about it too much. Remember they're people as they create content that's anti-player. Crocodile tears.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

^No acknowledgment of the fact that you were calling for a dev to be fired, in full contradiction of the compassion requested by Yoshi-P. Disappointing but not surprising.

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This is such a strange comment to me. If someone is not doing their job properly, when did it become wrong to not want them dismissed? 14 is a customer service based product. While the devs might have more technical skills then say a waiter. If they fail to continuously to deliver for customers companies need to look to move on. Keeping people who are performing poorly at their jobs creates problems on multiple levels. Customer is unhappy, employer isn't happy, and the employee can't be enjoying doing a poor job and then getting that fact thrown back at them by the first two.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

This is such a strange comment to me. If someone is not doing their job properly, when did it become wrong to not want them dismissed? 14 is a customer service based product. While the devs might have more technical skills then say a waiter. If they fail to continuously to deliver for customers companies need to look to move on. Keeping people who are performing poorly at their jobs creates problems on multiple levels. Customer is unhappy, employer isn't happy, and the employee can't be enjoying doing a poor job and then getting that fact thrown back at them by the first two.

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Would you call for a waiter to be fired because you don't like how the chef makes the soup? That's what's going on here.

More to the point, you equate your dislike of the product with an employee performing poorly at their job. The former is not related to the latter. With rare exception, each individual's performance at their job on the dev team is so far removed from us as customers as to be imperceptible. All we see is the end product, we don't see the instructions given to each employee, the constraints they were working under, the resources available to them, etc. We have limited capacity to judge job performance. And certainly you can't say a single person in the team is bad at their job because the end product was not to your personal taste.

But, even if we could judge job performance and we knew someone was underperforming at their role, it's still rude as hell to antagonize them by calling for them to be fired. Or to send them death threats. Or to smeer or degrade them in a public forum. It's rude online and offline. A bit of compassion goes a long way.

This thread should have ended at the "this is a partnership" bit, not used as some aggro stepping stone for your own feedback.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Yeah, I know you are. That's why you shouldn't be working on 6 (or however many) different projects at the same time.

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This.

Which also goes back to what I said in an earlier post, about how (apparently) little of the income the game generates actually gets fed back into the game.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Would you call for a waiter to be fired because you don't like how the chef makes the soup? That's what's going on here.

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If they keep messing up the order and browbeat you for criticizing the chef, then yeah, lol.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

If they keep messing up the order and browbeat you for criticizing the chef, then yeah, lol.

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In other words for the thing I said, no.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

In other words for the thing I said, no.

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I did and I think it's a pretty sorry thing for the weakest link to drag the entire team down, but don't let me stop you from defending toxic workers, lol.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I did and I think it's a pretty sorry thing for the weakest link to drag the entire team down, but don't let me stop you from defending toxic workers, lol.

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Truly a waffles-pancakes moment going on here. Reread what I said, then what you said, then reflect how they're different unrelated things.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Truly a waffles-pancakes moment going on here. Reread what I said, then what you said, then reflect how they're different unrelated things.

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I did, you are refusing to flesh out your argument because the moment we point out the simple fact that the ones asking for our money are acting like they know better than the customers, your half baked argument falls apart. You are defending a mulitbillion yen corpo, and paying a monthly sub to do it, lmao.

I have lost hope a longtime ago if 8.0 isn't good I am done with 14 after soany hours I will be done with it omg this is insane... like I have all art book too and tried to get all statue. even lore book! and yet I am now ready to leave 14 to keep the better memories over what we have now

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I've been consistently on topic with all my posts in this thread. On the other hand, you're repeatedly off topic with some posts containing nothing other than personal attacks.

It's funny that you asked in what way you are downplaying the personhood of the developers, I explained, and you just totally failed to address or comprehend it. You're here defending toxic criticism for christ's sake. You were calling for a developer to be fired. You have no leg to stand on. I believe the community as a whole rejects the fanatical attitude you're representing here.

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ok...

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

they are people and more importantly under a corporation so they do not have the full say in what will get done in the end it's important that we do not attack the producer or Dev team for this fact alone. Constructive criticism and eventually voting with our wallets will make things better in the long run. Can imagine what you're saying about harsher words from the JP side of the community; Jp are serious about their jobs and Yoshi and team look to have royally screwed up he plumbing.

That said it is Karen like behavior to attack the cashier for what store management has decided that's what attacking the Dev team equates to. xD

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here you are. tell me more about how I want them to be harassed.

Again we have nothing else to speak on with Kate she is not like the rest of the Dev team she has outted herself as an individual that has divisive views and is a brand risk.

her being a brand risk It's equivalent to an Amazon worker spouting pro maga nonsense fire him.
You based on all this nonsense you keep pushing now have to argue that the amazon worker should keep their job because they are a person.

either way They have nothing to do with this topic of the dev team receiving feedback for the quality of the game. stay on topic :3

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

her being a brand risk It's equivalent to an Amazon worker spouting pro maga nonsense fire him.
You based on all this nonsense you keep pushing now have to argue that the amazon worker should keep their job because they are a person.

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You know, I wonder what would happen if the situation was reversed, oh wait, the Susan Calloway incident. Nevermind, we all know, lol.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

The game could still lose about 50% more of its playerbase and still be very healthy.

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Said no one ever, inside SE's financial department. That's a lot of money to lose, and it would be irresponsible for qualified professionals to have this mentality. Yoshi-P has already hinted at major changes ahead, with future content being designed for the entire playerbase rather than niche groups. There's clear pressure coming from shareholders, which is now public knowledge through multiple gaming media outlets.

Also let's not forget that Yoshi-P recently complained about their server costs.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I did, you are refusing to flesh out your argument because the moment we point out the simple fact that the ones asking for our money are acting like they know better than the customers, your half baked argument falls apart. You are defending a mulitbillion yen corpo, and paying a monthly sub to do it, lmao.

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What are you taking about? Nobody here is saying you can't criticize the game

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Originally Posted by Exmo

What are you taking about? Nobody here is saying you can't criticize the game

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That's right, it's all about tone and "the wrong" tone can easily be subjective. In short, quit trying to shut down the conversation because of some Karen logic. What are you, England? lmao

Well the ones playing this game is people as well, it would not hurt for listening to stuff that the game is lacking content and the goal more or less is to make current content obsolete with making new content, instead of adding to the pool and focusing much more on the line to adapt all content in game towards max level.

For level 100... there is literally no areas with level 100 mobs in other than the hunt.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

That's right, it's all about tone and "the wrong" tone can easily be subjective. In short, quit trying to shut down the conversation because of some Karen logic. What are you, England? lmao

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Hi, can you elaborate on that?

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Well the ones playing this game is people as well, it would not hurt for listening to stuff that the game is lacking content and the goal more or less is to make current content obsolete with making new content, instead of adding to the pool and focusing much more on the line to adapt all content in game towards max level.

For level 100... There is literally no areas with level 100 mobs in other than the hunt.

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Level 1 to 15 zones in Guild Wars 2 are infinitely more dynamic than what we have in any zone now and those came out 13 years ago. Eventually, the rubber needs to meet the road on how incompetent they are as game developers.

They keep making rookie mistakes and decisions that negatively impact the game constantly. Look at Forked Tower. How much of an idiot do you need to be to make it how they made it? Realize the screwed up only to still have it be inaccessible to like 90% of the playerbase and the 10% that wanted to do it all they want is a queue, but they're too incompetent to do it. It's always the next time. Leave the old content broken and fix the new stuff. It's like what a kid would do. It's like the movie Big Daddy where Sunny Adam Sandler's character puts a newspaper on puke. You can't see the puke, but it's still there.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Hi, can you elaborate on that?

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Simple. You are trying to make people walk on eggshells with their reply because what you consider a harsh or negative tone can be considered mild ribbing to some at worst. Why you so disingenuous bro? You know what you are doing, lol.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Level 1 to 15 zones in Guild Wars 2 are infinitely more dynamic than what we have in any zone now and those came out 13 years ago. Eventually, the rubber needs to meet the road on how incompetent they are as game developers.

They keep making rookie mistakes and decisions that negatively impact the game constantly. Look at Forked Tower. How much of an idiot do you need to be to make it how they made it? Realize the screwed up only to still have it be inaccessible to like 90% of the playerbase and the 10% that wanted to do it all they want is a queue, but they're too incompetent to do it. It's always the next time. Leave the old content broken and fix the new stuff. It's like what a kid would do. It's like the movie Big Daddy where Sunny Adam Sandler's character puts a newspaper on puke. You can't see the puke, but it's still there.

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TBF they have added some QOL to old systems you can now run and mount you can now use phoenix downs they have moved to get rid of exploits quickly however sweeping changes or innovation that the game needs they have refused we have a whole thread on this site asking for glams to be not class locked this is simple stuff that they could literally flip a switch to enable and they refuse to do it.

we stil have these tome caps and savage raid gear lockouts is a person does teh raid and dioes not get gear why are they locked out? why not have the same system you have with normal one gear one tome per week that would make running for new players so much better but they refuse common sense... just baffling

they did good with Bozja it was a better eureka and with crescent they enable BA type getting into the dungeon it makes no sense to me someone reasoned out that people still do BA so it is moe popular than Delibrum (misspelled prolly) but when it was current conetent people really enjoyed that my guess is hey will fix it going forward but we reakllly have to wait and see 8.0 better be good or people will drop the game again that is not good for what is my fave MMO. J:

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

However being people does not put you above criticism you are in a business relationship with your many paying customers and you have provided not only poorer quality product but you have provided it at slower intervals.

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They have never acted as if they are above criticism, but what you call "criticism" i call pointed harassment. The sheer volume of toxic behavior towards the dev team, the voice actors, other players, and the game in general, has increased by a MASSIVE amount in the last 4-5 years. A lot of the complaints aren't even framed in a way that could be considered constructive by ANY metric except your own.

Some of these things include:

harassing devs, or Yoshi-P over social media, sending death threats to voice actors like Sena Bryer, accusing anything and everything under the sun that gets added to 14 of being "Woke" or DEI, or "SBI" Slop, Complaining incessantly about content not being hard enough and when they make it more difficult people complain it's too hard and not fair, going after a member of staff who has no control over the game's story and calling for them to be fired because they dared to suggest fascists have no place in office on social media (do not @ me about this point, i don't wanna hear it), and don't even get me started on the cavalcade of clowns who brigaded on social media, the forums, AND in game over the destruction of that third party tool which will not be named.


The Devs DO actively listen, but with the caveat that anything you bring up to them will be taken with several grains of salt simply because of how fickle the community is in general about literally everything.