Wuk Lamat

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

That moment and also the gospel train bomb montage had me laughing for days at the absurd events written into the story.

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Remember, you're a racist if you call it gospel music! :P

Seriously though, I stand corrected. I have desperately tried to forget it, but the SMILE Train Bomb Montage was the FIRST jump the shark moment in DT. Silly upbeat happy music while we construct a weapon of mass destruction was just so ridiculous. Putting aside the weak attempt at recreating the Trolley Stuff from Shadowbringers (right down to cameos from The Trolley Guys themselves) and the "Everyone we Befriended Comes Together to Help Build the Golem" scene from same, the happy music was just... complete tonal whiplash.

Imagine them assembling and testing the atomic bomb in Oppenheimer, while "C'mon Get Happy" by the Partridge Family bops away in the background. Or the "Life of a Bullet" sequence from the opening of Lord of War, while Pharell's "Happy" is playing. Or "Mmmmmbop" by Hanson over the "What's in the Box?" scene in Se7en.

Totally inappropriate, unless intended to be firmly tongue-in-cheek, and I doubt that level of irony was intended.

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Originally Posted by XtremePrime

Imagine if they did that with Lyse? You're fighting Shinryu in Stormblood and just before the end of the fight, Lyse comes in with a flying kick and goes like "Yeah WoL, I did it!"

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Ardbert, Emet Selch and Zenos have all shown up at the eleventh hour against a final boss to give the player an essential assist. Nobody complains about them, though. People get angry when you point this out.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Ardbert, Emet Selch and Zenos have all shown up at the eleventh hour against a final boss to give the player an essential assist. Nobody complains about them, though. People get angry when you point this out.

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Oh there's been plenty of complaining about the Zenos thing and how it made absolutely zero sense. Much like the Wuk Lamat one.

With Wuk Lamat it's a screentime issue, people not wanting to see her anymore and her power level being essentially "What the plot needs" instead of it making any sense.

With Zenos it's that he was clearly a cutting on the writing teams floor that they had to forcefully insert in, because they wanted to get rid of him for that "final fight" between us. So Krile got fired with the writers dumb dumb beam and the whole nation of Sharlayan too just went "Yeah, let him eat the mothercrystal and send him after the WoL to fly a real quick 5 minutes to the END OF THE UNIVERSE (still can't believe they did that) to help his MORTAL ENEMY"

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Ardbert, Emet Selch and Zenos have all shown up at the eleventh hour against a final boss to give the player an essential assist. Nobody complains about them, though. People get angry when you point this out.

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I think the reason nobody complains about them is they didn't actually help fight (technically maybe Ardbert did, but also not really). They just popped in, helped, then peaced out. Also them helping us didn't come completely out of nowhere. Ardbert was a part of us and just merged with us. Emet was brought in through the stone of Azem and just brought us back from the void place. Zenos just gave us a ride and acted as our arena. Wuk Lamat breaking in and able to almost take on Sphene solo just doesn't make sense. How come she, and only she, was able to get in? How did she even find her way to us? How come she's THAT dang strong without any reason? If there is an explanation for any of those, I would honestly love to hear them. No sarcasm.

Thank you for reading and I wish all a pleasant day.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Oh there's been plenty of complaining about the Zenos thing and how it made absolutely zero sense. Much like the Wuk Lamat one.

With Wuk Lamat it's a screentime issue, people not wanting to see her anymore and her power level being essentially "What the plot needs" instead of it making any sense.

With Zenos it's that he was clearly a cutting on the writing teams floor that they had to forcefully insert in, because they wanted to get rid of him for that "final fight" between us. So Krile got fired with the writers dumb dumb beam and the whole nation of Sharlayan too just went "Yeah, let him eat the mothercrystal and send him after the WoL to fly a real quick 5 minutes to the END OF THE UNIVERSE (still can't believe they did that) to help his MORTAL ENEMY"

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Yep it was fairly naff for a bunch of different reasons. By comparison, WL arbitrarily falling through a dimensional rift is less absurd and certainly more fitting to her role and dramatic centrality in the story. Yet, people are far more vitriolic towards WL in her moment versus Zenos in his - I haven't seen nearly as much aggression in the community towards the latter.

Even if one does not like the character of WL (which, fair), one should be able to easily realize why she is given that honour in the final fight instead of a character who is tertiary in the story like any scion. There are far better angles one can take when criticizing WL's characterisation. Focussing on The Interphos just reads as an uncontrolled emotional reaction.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

I think the reason nobody complains about them is they didn't actually help fight (technically maybe Ardbert did, but also not really). They just popped in, helped, then peaced out. Also them helping us didn't come completely out of nowhere. Ardbert was a part of us and just merged with us. Emet was brought in through the stone of Azem and just brought us back from the void place. Zenos just gave us a ride and acted as our arena. Wuk Lamat breaking in and able to almost take on Sphene solo just doesn't make sense. How come she, and only she, was able to get in? How did she even find her way to us? How come she's THAT dang strong without any reason? If there is an explanation for any of those, I would honestly love to hear them. No sarcasm.

Thank you for reading and I wish all a pleasant day.

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I think if Graha were to jump into a trial and LB the boss, there would be top selling merchandise of it in the shop.

I've addressed the other questions in my previous post. Leaning on lore to provide explanations of dramatic intent is not the way to go. We can legitimize her strength by drawing on the fact that DT is well established as a journey of growth in her character, spiritually and physically; we can talk about how she can LB because of dynamis, etc etc hand wave it away.

Many who want answers to these questions won't find satisfaction from the lore because their issue does not really come from the integrity of world building. For me, the question of whether WL could LB the final boss according to established lore, is less interesting than whether WL being able to do so is justified by the story's dramatic composition.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I think if Graha were to jump into a trial and LB the boss, there would be top selling merchandise of it in the shop.

I've addressed the other questions in my previous post. Leaning on lore to provide explanations of dramatic intent is not the way to go. We can legitimize her strength by drawing on the fact that DT is well established as a journey of growth in her character, spiritually and physically; we can talk about how she can LB because of dynamis, etc etc hand wave it away.

Many who want answers to these questions won't find satisfaction from the lore because their issue does not really come from the integrity of world building. For me, the question of whether WL could LB the final boss according to established lore, is less interesting than whether WL being able to do so is justified by the story's dramatic composition.

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Actually I would have raised an eyebrow so high it would have left my face had G'raha done that. And I love that boy. We've never had any Scions help during the actual final battle so ANY of them actually assisting in a final battle would have been weird to me.

Also, please forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you have said. Sometimes I need things stated simply and bluntly for my brain to figure them out. It's just the way my neurodivergant brain works. So you're basically saying there's no real logical reason for WL to be able to break into a dimension and almost single-handedly take on a boss that the WoL and adventurer friends/other WoLs couldn't other than she's the star of the expansion? That's what I'm getting so please feel free to correct me if I am not getting it correct. The whole "being able to LB cause dynamis" part I get. It's more the "suddenly exponentially stronger than before with no real reason and can break into dimensions" part I don't get. If it's just cause she's the main character and nothing much else, then okay. Weird, but okay.

Again, sorry if I am misunderstanding you. I'm just not good at reading between lines and need things put more simply/bluntly for my brain to understand them properly.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

I would personally want Sphene to come with us for the next arc, but being realistic she'll most likely be Queen along with Gulool.

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The only satisfactory ending for this "expansion story" for me would be if we put Sphene, the turtle kid, and Wuk Lamat in that underground castle and blew it up, burying them and this terrible story for eternity. I'll even accept Zenos coming back to assist us with it (someone said in this thread that no one has ever complained about Zenos. I think they must've been highly inebriated when they wrote it so I'll give them a pass)

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Yep it was fairly naff for a bunch of different reasons. By comparison, WL arbitrarily falling through a dimensional rift is less absurd and certainly more fitting to her role and dramatic centrality in the story. Yet, people are far more vitriolic towards WL in her moment versus Zenos in his - I haven't seen nearly as much aggression in the community towards the latter.

Even if one does not like the character of WL (which, fair), one should be able to easily realize why she is given that honour in the final fight instead of a character who is tertiary in the story like any scion. There are far better angles one can take when criticizing WL's characterisation. Focussing on The Interphos just reads as an uncontrolled emotional reaction.

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I agree that the drama focused towards Wuk Lamat focuses on the wrong angle, and pinpoints to something that misses the whole issue with Wuk Lamat. Which in my opinion at least is her overbearing screentime compared to other characters and the lack of interesting writing and dialogue and tackling her motivation and the whole pacing of the story for her arc being bungled. I always think she COULD have been a great character. While I thought the voice actress fumbled a bit from here to there, I could've just switched to Japanese and the issues with the character would still be there.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

Actually I would have raised an eyebrow so high it would have left my face had G'raha done that. And I love that boy. We've never had any Scions help during the actual final battle so ANY of them actually assisting in a final battle would have been weird to me.

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Fair enough. We can discuss taste until the cows come home. At the end of the day it hasn't happened so we can only speculate how people would react. More to my initial point, we *have* had NPCs assisting in the final battle in the past. If the crux if the problem is specifically how they assisted, that's mainly splitting hairs.

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Also, please forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you have said. Sometimes I need things stated simply and bluntly for my brain to figure them out. It's just the way my neurodivergant brain works. So you're basically saying there's no real logical reason for WL to be able to break into a dimension and almost single-handedly take on a boss that the WoL and adventurer friends/other WoLs couldn't other than she's the star of the expansion? That's what I'm getting so please feel free to correct me if I am not getting it correct. The whole "being able to LB cause dynamis" part I get. It's more the "suddenly exponentially stronger than before with no real reason and can break into dimensions" part I don't get. If it's just cause she's the main character and nothing much else, then okay. Weird, but okay.

Again, sorry if I am misunderstanding you. I'm just not good at reading between lines and need things put more simply/bluntly for my brain to understand them properly.

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No, I'm saying a logical reason is not needed. It's not a documentary, these aren't real people in a real world. It's a story written towards thematic and dramatic purpose. The reason WL assisted against the final boss is because the writers judged that action as narratively cohesive - that it was compatible with the game's pacing, that it was dramatically interesting and exciting, that it was justified by the narrative positioning of these characters, etc. Debating whether and how WL could "actually" do it is to just write fan fiction.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

I agree that the drama focused towards Wuk Lamat focuses on the wrong angle, and pinpoints to something that misses the whole issue with Wuk Lamat. Which in my opinion at least is her overbearing screentime compared to other characters and the lack of interesting writing and dialogue and tackling her motivation and the whole pacing of the story for her arc being bungled. I always think she COULD have been a great character. While I thought the voice actress fumbled a bit from here to there, I could've just switched to Japanese and the issues with the character would still be there.

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That's totally fair.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Ardbert, Emet Selch and Zenos have all shown up at the eleventh hour against a final boss to give the player an essential assist. Nobody complains about them, though. People get angry when you point this out.

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Ardbert: is your shard who rejoins with you. Not sure why it needs any more justification than that, but okay. Since you had not been fully rejoined with him yet, you weren't as strong as Emet-Selch expected you to be, hence his disappointment when you can't contain the light. You're not as powerful as he believed you to be. Ardbert doesn't literally jump intoo the fight and start clobbering the boss, as does Cat with Axe. Saying that it's ridiculous for Ardbert to show up and help is as ridiculous as being annoyed that your left hand has showed up to help your right hand.

Emet-Selch: is our friend, regardless of if he wants to admit it or not. He's part of The Squad. Elidibus is not. The Squad sticks together. His coming in to help us is the result of us fervently wishing for his help and Hydaelyn/Venat's last blessing aiding us. And even then, all he does is snap us back. He doesn't jump in and go beast mode Sorcerer of Eld on Elidibus, unlike Cat with Axe.

Zenos (and this is also going out to @Hallarem, sorry friend): all he does is bust in, be our hype man, and give us a ride. If you need a deeper explanation... Zenos finally realized there has to be a little give and take, he finally realized that to get what he wants, he has to give us what we want. Its not nonsensical... remember, in his own twisted way, we are his ONLY friend. He's here to help his only friend so he can maybe get what he wants in return. His heart grew three sizes that day, so to speak. It's still small, but its there. Also again, all he does is show up, talk, and give us a place to stand. He doesn't rip Endsinger's wings off and stuff them down her throat or something, unlike Cat with Axe.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Oh there's been plenty of complaining about the Zenos thing and how it made absolutely zero sense. Much like the Wuk Lamat one.

With Wuk Lamat it's a screentime issue, people not wanting to see her anymore and her power level being essentially "What the plot needs" instead of it making any sense.

With Zenos it's that he was clearly a cutting on the writing teams floor that they had to forcefully insert in, because they wanted to get rid of him for that "final fight" between us. So Krile got fired with the writers dumb dumb beam and the whole nation of Sharlayan too just went "Yeah, let him eat the mothercrystal and send him after the WoL to fly a real quick 5 minutes to the END OF THE UNIVERSE (still can't believe they did that) to help his MORTAL ENEMY"

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Contextually, Shinryu is also the Eastern equivalent of Midgardsormr. It's never really fully stated, but it's implied that the "Great Serpent" of the Eastern myth of Shinryu is literally just Midgardsormr. They just didn't have a name for him. Different name, same being. Kind of like how many cultures on Earth have myths of a Great Flood. Most likely they are all talking about the same event. Anyway... Midgardsormr has the power to shatter dimensional barriers, make rifts in time and space, and does so by breaking into Omega's interdimensional rift to rescue us from our possible doom at the hands of Omega. As the Eastern interpretation of the same being, Shinryu has the exact same power. Also, during the Shinryu fight, he shatters a barrier and flies us to... somewhere else, conveniently creating a platform for us to fight him on at the same time.


No offense, Hallarem, but literally everything Shinryu does makes perfect sense given its powers as previously showed, and if you read the bit I wrote above about Zenos, everything Zenos does makes perfect sense given his own admittedly twisted views on friendship and cooperation. For people to complain about how Zenos just suddenly decides to help is just ignoring the very subtle changes in his personality. It wasn't a "quick 5 minute flight", it was Shinryu's own very clearly demonstrated ability to shatter rifts in time and space. If you're going to accuse Sharlayan of just "letting him eat the mothercrystal" just remember that they didn't really have any reaction to you going down into Heaven and killing off the only benevolent god we had around, either. Is it still "quickly wrapping up the Zenos plot"? Sure, but that happened with a lot of other things in Endwalker, too. It's not exclusively a Zenos problem.

Like I said, Hallarem, we're on the same page about a lot of things but... this I just can't agree with.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

(someone said in this thread that no one has ever complained about Zenos. I think they must've been highly inebriated when they wrote it so I'll give them a pass)

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As someone who actually liked Zenos...

Then someone in this thread clearly wasn't around for when Stormblood was live, because all anyone did was talk about how annyoing Lyse was and what a boring uninteresting character Zenos was.

And they also must not have been around for when Endwalker was live, becuase all anyone did was complain about how annoyingly nihilistic Hermes A. Fandaniel was, and how they hated that Zenos was back and were glad at his apparent final death.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

The post-DT quests have been just as terrible. Absolutely horrid writing from this team, it's unbelievable. Just as a singular example, I find it hard to believe that the kid (the "king" of Tural or whatever. The turtle) is the smartest person in the room. And the child catgirl in the raid quests? With the advanced understanding of the disease we just learned existed? Give me a break. They're trying to get me to suspend my disbelief over an endless chasm.

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It's amazing how different people can have different opinions! For example, I've been enjoying both the 7.0 MSQ and the patches since. It's perfectly fine to feel the opposite way and not like them - but turning it into vitriolic personal attacks at the dev team because you have a different opinion is...well, I'll just say I hope you're not someone who also wonders why this forum doesn't get taken seriously. Also, for the record, the "little sibling is a whiz kid" trope has existed since before any of us were born.

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Kinda weird how they have taken a "backround role" and we still drag them along with us everywhere.

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Background characters by their nature still exist...they're not the main focus anymore, but it's not weird at all for them to still be there.

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Kinda weird how Krile was supposed to have a major role in the expansion, but never got her due and was constantly muscled out of scenes by Wuk Lamat

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I was expecting a bit more for Krile, too, but we still got plenty and Wuk Lumat wasn't "muscling her out" of anything.

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Kinda weird how these "new characters" were dominated by one character getting all the spotlight

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Also not weird at all to have a bunch of new characters but one of them in particular getting the "spotlight."

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Holy moly the echo chamber you live in is crazy. I've played The Interphos over 100 times in PF and most I would see people react with is "WUK LAMAT COMES IN WITH THE STEEL CHAIR" or say "SPEEEN". Either your entire group of friends and FC desperately need to touch grass if you're reacting like this over a cool video game cutscene or you're making this shit up for some reason and idk which is weirder.

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This. Notice how the person you're responding to only seems to do it with their own friend group or FC, where people are by nature more likely to have similar opinions on things.

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Don't act like this is some hive mind and everyone should be a brainless barking seal, clapping for whatever drivel Yoshida serves. YOU are the one who needs to touch grass and consider that not everyone will have the same opinion or feelings.

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This response, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense (though the vitriol and personal attacks are par for the course with the negative echo chamber around here). The person you're responding to never said anything like that, just pointed out that they have had a different experience. They also do the content with a wide variety of different groups, while the person they were responding to played only with their friend group/FC. One of those is going to give you a better perspective on the larger community. But way to put words into someone's mouth so you could personally attack them since apparently you couldn't refute their point.

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We've never had any Scions help during the actual final battle so ANY of them actually assisting in a final battle would have been weird to me.

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(All of the Scions help us in the EW battle - the whole shield thing protecting us from the second LB...)

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Originally Posted by Exmo

No, I'm saying a logical reason is not needed. It's not a documentary, these aren't real people in a real world. It's a story written towards thematic and dramatic purpose. The reason WL assisted against the final boss is because the writers judged that action as narratively cohesive - that it was compatible with the game's pacing, that it was dramatically interesting and exciting, that it was justified by the narrative positioning of these characters, etc. Debating whether and how WL could "actually" do it is to just write fan fiction.

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I think I get what you're saying. Or at least the gist of it. Thank you for taking the time to explain it more clearly for me. Most people get annoyed when I ask them to clarify it more simply for me. I hope you have a wonderful day.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

"Um guys, where is le downvote button?"

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Bro just hit me with the "erm, what the scallop. Don't be mean!" and then tries to justify bad writing by claiming it's an ancient esoteric technique from ancient times. Your strange moral highground isn't going to assist you much here. Whether people are mean or not with their feedback isn't our problem to deal with. It's the billion dollar company's problem to deal with while they're being paid hundreds of millions of dollars. If they can't handle a little hard sentiment then they're not cut out for this whole "running a business thing." I don't care if the "kid smarter than even god himself" trope was successful in the Astro Boy days, it's not going to hit in today's times because the people playing the game aren't 80......yet. You'd be lucky to find someone who even wants a kid character to be in the same room as their WoL - most people don't like kids these days. It's not a huge revelation either. This is basic common sense for a non-lazy writer to perceive and to avoid. But then, we didn't really get any compelling writing this expansion either. Writing almost as lazy as the arguments in defense of it.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

I think I get what you're saying. Or at least the gist of it. Thank you for taking the time to explain it more clearly for me. Most people get annoyed when I ask them to clarify it more simply for me. I hope you have a wonderful day.

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You're welcome, I'm happy to clarify when people are pleasant to chat with. Good day to you too.

@Striker44, those are known trolls, I'd save my breath if I were you.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://imgur.com/BOxFufh.png

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Truly, this must be the Wukest Lamat of all time.

Coming back to the main topic, I just hope they make her leave already. I can't wait for the moment we say goodbye forever to Llama Tea. No matter how they get rid of her, just...get rid of her.

Also, comparing any other character that helped us out during a trial to her (and with helped us out, I mean helped us out, not broke through a barrier to rip the boss apart in front of our eyes) hurts to read and almost borders on being offensive. The writing of this scene was just bad. There is no comparison, nothing to justify it. And every time I get thrown into this trial, I sigh. Because I have to watch the ridiculous cutscene again.

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

I would drop this games story hard if they tried to drag Sphene along as a scion. We don't need anymore characters lumped into the scions, especially not one as boring and pointless as Sphene.

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That's just your opinion. I like her enough.
I never said anything about her becoming a Scion, there's technically no Scions anymore, I'd just like her to be around for longer than she'll realistically be with us because I'd like to see her character evolve into something deeper like Zero with her mini-arc.

I liken her presence to Jar Jar Binks in most scenes.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I liken her presence to Jar Jar Binks in most scenes.

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True, but Jar Jar at least wasn't as omnipresent as her. He was only really annoying in Episode 1. In 2 and 3 he had way fewer appearances. While we got stuck with Little Miss Furrypaws for multiple patches now.

Wuk Lamat is not even a BAD character, overall.

She is just too prominent in the back half of the story.

Once she becomes Dawnservant, her story is basically finished, and she should have started fading into the background of the story.

Everything after that should have been focused on Krile and Erenville, but especially Krile.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

You're welcome, I'm happy to clarify when people are pleasant to chat with. Good day to you too.

@Striker44, those are known trolls, I'd save my breath if I were you.

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You're not the Tone Police. I've already had a run-in with them.

You also don't get to deflect critique or criticism by claiming "they're just trolls".

I'm paying this multi-billion dollar company (actually I'm not anymore). I get to decide what I think is the proper response to low-quality product.

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Originally Posted by Auro_Seldaris

As someone who actually liked Zenos...

Then someone in this thread clearly wasn't around for when Stormblood was live, because all anyone did was talk about how annyoing Lyse was and what a boring uninteresting character Zenos was.

And they also must not have been around for when Endwalker was live, becuase all anyone did was complain about how annoyingly nihilistic Hermes A. Fandaniel was, and how they hated that Zenos was back and were glad at his apparent final death.

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I was about to make the same comment on Zenos. The general consensus was EW mostly redeemed him, but there is still a base of players that really dislike him (there is an response option on the finale duel that clearly puts him and his motives down for us to choose for a reason). Personally I found him predatory and a necessary evil in the final battle, but written decently well.

I also found Hermes to be a terrifying commentary of severe depression in a society very much not equipped to handle it despite being literally paradise. There is only so much that can be taken from physical comfort and community when the brain juices are broken. Meteion being a terrible attempt to try to ask for help from people that might understand going so poorly was a possibility he likely couldn't even consider (and boy he crashed hard when he learned it!). And then it happens to him AGAIN BUT WORSE within Allag.

Meanwhile I really like DT having Alexandria have almost zero legacy by erasing the dead from the living's memory, but I don't feel like they're exploring it enough yet. We're seeing grown adults have the same reaction to death as a toddler meanwhile most of the copies in Living Memory were content with being deleted.

Wuk Lamat always winning immediately destroyed the Mamook section, to me. Mamook was run through WAY too fast for that kind of sheer horror and deeply ingrained, religious culture, even though you could see the people hated it and we did have a way to move them out of it. Ishgard storylines have attacked that kind of thing from different angles, so I wonder if the writers felt played out? But just because Wuk is the worst kind of shonen protag, she and her posse (Koana, the smart one) fixed it all immediately.

It sucks because Dawntrail had plenty of topics a plot strings that reflect the kind of depth we expect, but they just refused to fo any diving.

It shows what a desert of interesting content 7.X has been when, more than a year after launch, people are still pointing out there was rather too much Wuk Lamat.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

Wuk Lamat is not even a BAD character, overall.

She is just too prominent in the back half of the story.

Once she becomes Dawnservant, her story is basically finished, and she should have started fading into the background of the story.

Everything after that should have been focused on Krile and Erenville, but especially Krile.

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The problem with Krile and Erenville IMO is that, while both are likeable, they are also intrinsically quite dull.

Like Erenville's whole bit is that he is taciturn, whereas Krile only shines when she's embarrassing Alphinaud. Plus I just don't find someone wielding a paintbrush to be particularly intimidating.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The problem with Krile and Erenville IMO is that, while both are likeable, they are also intrinsically quite dull.

Like Erenville's whole bit is that he is taciturn, whereas Krile only shines when she's embarrassing Alphinaud. Plus I just don't find someone wielding a paintbrush to be particularly intimidating.

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Can't disagree with you on anything there. It's why I thought Erenville didn't make for a particularly interesting narrator/ POV character, or even a party member. Silly retconning of his backstory and history aside, his whole schtick is being unflappable and taciturn. Let's be real, he's pretty and that's most of his appeal. Krile is okay, she could have been a decent character but we have a lot of "smart, nice" people around, she needed something to make her stand out from the crowd. DT could have given her that but alas, it was Llama Tea all the way down. And I agree, the paintbrush and palette aren't exactly fearsome, but that's why it was ok for a mid tier support character like her to have it.

I mean look, even the devs don't care about Krile. They just literally forgot her in the EW poster art. Then when she gets the big moment to use her orphan trinket to open the gate, she .... gets denied. (That moment really, REALLY convinced me they hate her. Can't let her have ONE moment, Sad Lizard Lad has to do it for her.)

But fundamentally I agree, they are kinda boring as characters.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

Meanwhile I really like DT having Alexandria have almost zero legacy by erasing the dead from the living's memory, but I don't feel like they're exploring it enough yet. We're seeing grown adults have the same reaction to death as a toddler meanwhile most of the copies in Living Memory were content with being deleted.

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Regarding death, Alexandria stands in complete contrast to the Yok Huy, something I don't think the story as told makes any effort to encourage you to ponder.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Regarding death, Alexandria stands in complete contrast to the Yok Huy, something I don't think the story as told makes any effort to encourage you to ponder.

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PRECISELY.

It's one of those points that is literally never mentioned or dwelled on. Meanwhile we can repeat the same lines about peas and happiness and how regulators work like, 6 times. Baffling.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Regarding death, Alexandria stands in complete contrast to the Yok Huy, something I don't think the story as told makes any effort to encourage you to ponder.

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I think players are expected to have the minimum amount of literacy needed to gather obvious meaning from clearly presented contrasts on their own. Lord knows there's plenty on the forums who complain when the story tells them What It's About. We can hardly chastise the writers for using something as exotic as subtext.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I think players are expected to have the minimum amount of literacy needed to gather obvious meaning from clearly presented contrasts on their own. Lord knows there's plenty on the forums who complain when the story tells them What It's About. We can hardly chastise the writers for using something as exotic as subtext.

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Yeah...as often as the story treats me like a subliterate idiot with the memory of a goldfish, I'd never forgive it if it did so all the time. Death, Legacy, and Family was pretty well all over Dawntrail and I'm glad the writers didn't bash me over the head with it. It's there to see for anyone who cares to look.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Ardbert, Emet Selch and Zenos have all shown up at the eleventh hour against a final boss to give the player an essential assist. Nobody complains about them, though. People get angry when you point this out.

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Also the Scions protecting us from Endsinger but none of those four examples was invasive or disrespectful to our character. The WoL is never alone and getting a small assist (even though one was the unlikeliest) is fitting with the idea that our relationships with people provide some of our strength.

If Wuk had come in and done something like used all her strength to break us out of something we were trapped in and then was exhausted in the corner or gets yeeted back out while we finish what we started then I think there would have been a lot less uproar about it.

Having that come on the heels of the expansion never allowing any other character to really be showcased in favor of always pushing Wuk, it was just kind of the last straw.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Also the Scions protecting us from Endsinger but none of those four examples was invasive or disrespectful to our character. The WoL is never alone and getting a small assist (even though one was the unlikeliest) is fitting with the idea that our relationships with people provide some of our strength.

If Wuk had come in and done something like used all her strength to break us out of something we were trapped in and then was exhausted in the corner or gets yeeted back out while we finish what we started then I think there would have been a lot less uproar about it.

Having that come on the heels of the expansion never allowing any other character to really be showcased in favor of always pushing Wuk, it was just kind of the last straw.

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Hmmm...yeah, I'm not sure I would have liked that, but it would have been far less egregious than the WoL watching Wuk Lamat chunk something like 13% of the boss's HP in one hit and then WoL getting inspired by that. That's just in kill-steal territory.

Ardbert coming in was telegraphed for a dozen quests, and he had the decency to make an already kick-ass cut-scene even better. Wuk literally interrupted the last fight when I was getting hyped up to solve a cool mech. It was as much unforgivable for that as it was for the meme-worthy "speeeeeen". The whole thing really just made me mad because it was all a bait-and-switch. "Finally, it's the WoL's turn to have a bit of spotlight! The Last Boss and the Azem sign say so! ...Oh, nevermind, hi Wuk, I'll just be over here in a corner while you solo the boss."

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Hmmm...yeah, I'm not sure I would have liked that, but it would have been far less egregious than the WoL watching Wuk Lamat chunk something like 13% of the boss's HP in one hit and then WoL getting inspired by that. That's just in kill-steal territory.

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Yeah I still might have rolled my eyes because it would still mean we couldn't have a second alone in the expansion, but we've been trapped or disabled by devices before, like the Gunbreaker questline and when Omega almost killed us and Middy saved us. So if Mecha-Sphene had whipped out something we needed to be broken free of, I wouldn't have been nearly as annoyed.