Occult Relic grind needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

I want both?

Fate grinding isn't exactly the most fun thing in the world, but it's enjoyable enough to do every so often in small chunks and it gives me something to do in a game I otherwise like.

Problem with RNG rewards is there's no guarantee that I'll actually make any progress towards the reward I want. So if I log on and get nothing for the time I just spent, I feel like the game just wasted my time. I made no progress towards anything.

Do you go spam dungeons when you've already hit the tomestone cap? What's wrong, don't you enjoy playing the game? Go play it even though you get nothing for it.

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I actually do dungeons after hitting the cap because I like to just have simple fun from time to time.
There are people who LIKE rng to an extent.
The way to do it is to just do fates or ce’s on their own and be happy when the atma drops.
Even in ARR I never minded it and in fact the sound of the atma dropping was always great. It made the end result after you were done even sweeter.

The problem arises when people either spam those fates and “burn out” understandably or compare their progress to others like OP did.
This content stays here for a while.
I honestly don’t get the modern thought process of having to rush things.
If you see playing the game as a waste of time on its own… then why even play it?

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

oh here we go, first people complained that tomestones weren't grindy, because a relic MUST be grindy, because farming the same fates over and over is a lot more epic than just gathering tomes, and now the grind is bad because it's not th exact type of grind that you or others wanted as if Yoshi has a crystal ball to look in your mind..... this playerbase doesn't know what they want.

or well, i know that the tomes respected my time and didn't have to waste time on fates, but yall complained so... now you get atma 2.0 so shut up and grind

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Different people are complaining i guarantee you

Read the comments and you'll notice that everyone has their own concept of "grind". Good luck finding a middle ground, when everyone wants something different. It's nearly impossible and it ruins the experience for people who like grindy content. I don't mind 100 quests or RNG, it leads to the same result. And as for people comparing these silly Atma steps to a Korean MMO. They haven't really played one at all.

Do we have to get successive relics with tomestones only or do we still have the demiatma step open if we want it?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Do we have to get successive relics with tomestones only or do we still have the demiatma step open if we want it?

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The demiatma step is one time only for now, when they expand the relic they may add another one time step

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The demiatma step is one time only for now, when they expand the relic they may add another one time step

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That sucks that we don't get the option to do it again instead of tomes.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Huh...

So they went this route? LOL.

I've honestly been doing Eureka again with a friend over Occult Crescent.

Honestly sounds like I am not missing much.

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It is pretty much Eureka 2.0 with little safer open world. “Lost action” redress as phantoms job. Mob are still HP sponge, and soloing still highly not advised. Still jump on FATE/CE train to level up. One good thing though it have a better story than Eureka so far

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

It is pretty much Eureka 2.0 with little safer open world. “Lost action” redress as phantoms job. Mob are still HP sponge, and soloing still highly not advised. Still jump on FATE/CE train to level up. One good thing though it have a better story than Eureka so far

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Thanks for this, I had been wondering how the general zone compared.

Obviously, there's only so much I can really grasp by watching a stream on my second screen, but I have been under the impression that mob density and threat was much lower in Occult Crescent than in Eureka, which the traversal aspect and that whole threat aspect for me is something I liked most about Eureka.

So I definitely won't be pining to go into Occult Crescent unless I am incredibly bored with nothing play and/or none of the people I play with are around.

I was concerned whether Phantom Jobs was just going to be one of those classic Square Enix attempts at trying to rehash an old feature with new naming, e.g., FATE > 'Skirmish'

Call it now, will the next relic step be more atmas or will it be lightfarming.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/9UW6LpQ6-...on-chigurh.gif

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Thanks for this, I had been wondering how the general zone compared.

Obviously, there's only so much I can really grasp by watching a stream on my second screen, but I have been under the impression that mob density and threat was much lower in Occult Crescent than in Eureka, which the traversal aspect and that whole threat aspect for me is something I liked most about Eureka.

So I definitely won't be pining to go into Occult Crescent unless I am incredibly bored with nothing play and/or none of the people I play with are around.

I was concerned whether Phantom Jobs was just going to be one of those classic Square Enix attempts at trying to rehash an old feature with new naming, e.g., FATE > 'Skirmish'

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I think the open world change is the right direction, as players have to travel to CE unlike Bozja. I still giving res to other players on my way to CE, just not as frequently as in Eureka. This make the whole experience more friendly to new players or solo player.

However, it is still vastly more efficient to grind in group, to keep the chain up solo, the time are very tight.

Phantom Job just give you some unique skill based on the role but it pretty much condense into “Tank, heal, dps and support”. Have to level up each phantom job to get more skills. However, the phantom job you choose dictates what skill you could use which is less flexible than “lost action”.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

I want both?

Fate grinding isn't exactly the most fun thing in the world, but it's enjoyable enough to do every so often in small chunks and it gives me something to do in a game I otherwise like.

Problem with RNG rewards is there's no guarantee that I'll actually make any progress towards the reward I want. So if I log on and get nothing for the time I just spent, I feel like the game just wasted my time. I made no progress towards anything.

Do you go spam dungeons when you've already hit the tomestone cap? What's wrong, don't you enjoy playing the game? Go play it even though you get nothing for it.

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... yeah? Of course I do. Sometimes I load up a fight just to do it because I find it fun. Do you not?

As a pre ARR relic nerf survivor, my WoL's reaction to atma was literally my face. But I'm enjoying OC, so hopefully the grind won't be as noticeable.

It came way too late in the pipeline for me to care. This shouldve come out in 7.1 or at launch.
Either they arent hiding the fact that they dont care or they are having major production issues.

Airship got and out.

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Originally Posted by Lollerblades

As a pre ARR relic nerf survivor, my WoL's reaction to atma was literally my face. But I'm enjoying OC, so hopefully the grind won't be as noticeable.

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Honestly, with atma being nearly unanimously considered as bad, and them acknoledging it in the cutscene, it baffles me that's what they went for...

I don't understand why it's so hard to have a fallback option. Even extreme mounts have a fallback option, savage gear has a fallback option.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

I don't understand why it's so hard to have a fallback option. Even extreme mounts have a fallback option, savage gear has a fallback option.

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Cause Yoshi and his team is creatively bankrupt.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Honestly, with atma being nearly unanimously considered as bad, and them acknoledging it in the cutscene, it baffles me that's what they went for...

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Considering we have an easy in-zone access to grade XI and XII materia, please look forward to the obligatory Alexandrite step in future patches.

https://i.imgur.com/5TxUPO4.png

There is a difference between relics should be something you earn and wasting a player's time. There is nothing fun about doing fates for 8 hours and not receiving a single atma drop to progress your relic. If it is going to be a grind - fine, but at least make progress have some sort of guarantee. I don't do fates "for fun." I am not interested in Occult Crescent - at all. I'd like the new relic. But if I have to spend months and months just to "maybe" obtain 18 pieces so I can even acquire the first step? Forget it.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

... yeah? Of course I do. Sometimes I load up a fight just to do it because I find it fun. Do you not?

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Right? there is a few fights that I will jump at the opportunity to redo them, every time I see someone with a first time Endsinger fight in PF I will drop anything that isn't urgent to go do it, I know the entire post-"Light the way!" sequence by heart and I will sing along to the song during the last phase, there could be 0 rewards involved, not even the tomes and WT second chance point, and I'd still do it because it's plain fun to me.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Lol lets be real. MMO players dont have the concept of playing something just for fun.

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They don't and that's fucking sad my god, y'alls need to understand how much I started straight up giggling a couple times while in OC, because this is the kind of content I adore the most.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Right? there is a few fights that I will jump at the opportunity to redo them, every time I see someone with a first time Endsinger fight in PF I will drop anything that isn't urgent to go do it, I know the entire post-"Light the way!" sequence by heart and I will sing along to the song during the last phase, there could be 0 rewards involved, not even the tomes and WT second chance point, and I'd still do it because it's plain fun to me.



They don't and that's fucking sad my god, y'alls need to understand how much I started straight up giggling a couple times while in OC, because this is the kind of content I adore the most.

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Some people complain just for the sake of complaining I feel, sure there are legit issues like the atrocious drop rate for Relic weapon mats but to call the entire thing bad just doesn't feel they are being genuine.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

There is one difference. with rng drop you don't see yourself progressing. With Eureka, every fate you did was a step toward your goal. here you can spend 4 hours and not progress at all. The feeling is totally different. I'm the kind of guy that like the farm (I mean I farmed all the Eureka relics), but honestly, this "1 random drop every 2 hours" is not enjoyable.

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This exactly. This is the issue with the RNG. I loved Eureka for many reasons, and a big one was that it respected my time. I could go in knowing that if I put in a few hours of effort, I’d be coming out with at least one piece of upgraded gear. But here, my first day contributed nothing to my relic progress and I still don’t have any of the zone gear, but at least I know that if I do 100 fates, I will have enough silver coins for the full set for one class. But thanks to RNG, I could do all those fates and still not have anything towards my relic.

I really like the new zone: like others have said it provides the feeling I wanted DT to have, the sense of adventure and exploration. But the relic progress is abysmal. I’m not collecting them all, so I don’t care if the subsequent weapons are easier. It’s the same system they did for Bozja, and I didn’t like it then. The RNG doesn’t make it a better grind, it just means some people have to work harder than others if they’re not lucky. Same issue with making people wait to spend their 99 totems for a mount while people who get a lucky roll get it immediately. Some will be able to get their shiny relic faster, and it has nothing to do with the grind and everything to do with luck.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

... yeah? Of course I do. Sometimes I load up a fight just to do it because I find it fun. Do you not?

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Okay, let me put it this way.

Aside from this game, I also play Marvel Rivals, Dead by Daylight, and I also play single player games, in fact I'm currently trying to make my way through the Castlevania Advance Collection. I am also a Pathfinder 2nd edition GM.

Last night, I had about an hour before I wanted to go to bed. My options were to play a few rounds of DBD, log back into FF14 and try a few fates to make progress towards my relic, boot up Harmony of Dissonance and proceed through the castle, or pull up the PF2e campaign I'm working on and work on preparing for the next session.

In only one of these activities am I not guaranteed to make any progress towards my goals.

You see the problem?

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Originally Posted by Zakon

Okay, let me put it this way.

Aside from this game, I also play Marvel Rivals, Dead by Daylight, and I also play single player games, in fact I'm currently trying to make my way through the Castlevania Advance Collection. I am also a Pathfinder 2nd edition GM.

Last night, I had about an hour before I wanted to go to bed. My options were to play a few rounds of DBD, log back into FF14 and try a few fates to make progress towards my relic, boot up Harmony of Dissonance and proceed through the castle, or pull up the PF2e campaign I'm working on and work on preparing for the next session.

In only one of these activities am I not guaranteed to make any progress towards my goals.

You see the problem?

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To me the problem seems to be that you equate fun with progression. You need to have made it somewhere in that time before you feel you can enjoy yourself.

Sometimes, I'll just queue into the Trial roulette repeatedly. I don't get any significant reward beyond a little gil and maybe some tomes if Im lucky or not capped, but I'll do it anyway because I like the Trials, and I like playing the game.

For the relics, I'm planning on treating it like I do trying to catch all the big fish. I'll login occasionally, run some CE's or FATEs, maybe get some atmas, maybe not, then go do something else for a bit.
Maybe I'll explore the area to try and find any surveys I'm missing, maybe I'll go treasure hunting, maybe Ill go craft in cosmic exploration for a bit, or do some dailies. Whatever takes my fancy.

It's a tedious grind because some people whined that the EW relics weren't grindy enough. They were perfect but of course the whiners had to ruin everything.
I won't even bother with this time sink, I'll stick with tome/raid/crafted weapons. I'm glad we have alternatives. :)

https://i.imgur.com/m6sUY0w.png

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

To me the problem seems to be that you equate fun with progression. You need to have made it somewhere in that time before you feel you can enjoy yourself.

Sometimes, I'll just queue into the Trial roulette repeatedly. I don't get any significant reward beyond a little gil and maybe some tomes if Im lucky or not capped, but I'll do it anyway because I like the Trials, and I like playing the game.

For the relics, I'm planning on treating it like I do trying to catch all the big fish. I'll login occasionally, run some CE's or FATEs, maybe get some atmas, maybe not, then go do something else for a bit.
Maybe I'll explore the area to try and find any surveys I'm missing, maybe I'll go treasure hunting, maybe Ill go craft in cosmic exploration for a bit, or do some dailies. Whatever takes my fancy.

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No. That is not what I said.

I enjoy all of those activities, but only in one of them am I not guaranteed to make progress towards my goals in them.

If I didn't like FF14, I wouldn't be playing it. But I need a reason to play it over something else I enjoy doing. I was looking forward to a new relic grind to give me a consistent, long-term goal to work towards. The problem is that the way they went about it, it's *not* consistent, it's random.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

It's a tedious grind because some people whined that the EW relics weren't grindy enough. They were perfect but of course the whiners had to ruin everything.
I won't even bother with this time sink, I'll stick with tome/raid/crafted weapons. I'm glad we have alternatives. :)

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Lol. Lmao even.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

No. That is not what I said.

I enjoy all of those activities, but only in one of them am I not guaranteed to make progress towards my goals in them.

If I didn't like FF14, I wouldn't be playing it. But I need a reason to play it over something else I enjoy doing. I was looking forward to a new relic grind to give me a consistent, long-term goal to work towards. The problem is that the way they went about it, it's *not* consistent, it's random.

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Respectfully that's not exactly very different. Like, you can't just play something cause you want to, even if it doesn't immediately net you anything?

And you know, it's no different from big fishing. There's no guarantee that you're gonna get the fish every time you try, but over time, you do it enough times, you get lucky and get the fish. Getting 5 in one month and 1 the next, you're still making progress the same rate. But hey, I guess I just look at it differently.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

Respectfully that's not exactly very different. Like, you can't just play something cause you want to, even if it doesn't immediately net you anything?

And you know, it's no different from big fishing. There's no guarantee that you're gonna get the fish every time you try, but over time, you do it enough times, you get lucky and get the fish. Getting 5 in one month and 1 the next, you're still making progress the same rate. But hey, I guess I just look at it differently.

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I don't understand how this isn't making sense to you.

Let's just look at two of those options.

I enjoy Dead by Daylight and Final Fantasy XIV equally, they are two of my favorite games of all time.

I have limited time with which to play games, so I must now decide which of my favorite games I want to play.

In Dead by Daylight, I want to raise the Xenomorph to prestige 100 to show my love for the Alien franchise. In Final Fantasy XIV, I want to get a relic for my favorite job.

If I play Dead by Daylight, even if I play terribly and lose, I will still make progress towards my goal of reaching prestige level 100 with the Xenomorph.

If I play Final Fantasy XIV, even if I play well, I am not guaranteed to make progress towards my relic.

But they're different genres, so what if I just really feel like playing an RPG? Well I could play Final Fantasy XIV....

...or I could go start up Final Fantasy VII Remake which I've been meaning to play and get a fulfilling experience out of it, instead of grinding fates with no promise of working towards my goal.

Does it make sense now?

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

Respectfully that's not exactly very different. Like, you can't just play something cause you want to, even if it doesn't immediately net you anything?

And you know, it's no different from big fishing. There's no guarantee that you're gonna get the fish every time you try, but over time, you do it enough times, you get lucky and get the fish. Getting 5 in one month and 1 the next, you're still making progress the same rate. But hey, I guess I just look at it differently.

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I only read the comments from you on this page, but holy do they scream "no work".

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Call it now, will the next relic step be more atmas or will it be lightfarming.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/9UW6LpQ6-...on-chigurh.gif

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Or...it could be BOOKS 2.0! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Over a decade later and still the same arguments. Any detractors of the grind are called 'lazy' or they want 'handouts'.

No one can convince me that bad RNG for 5h or more with zero rewards is fun gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

If I play Final Fantasy XIV, even if I play well, I am not guaranteed to make progress towards my relic.

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To be fair, most previous iteration of the relic also utilized the same method of RNG.
ARR had atmas
HW had the fate crystals
SB didn't. There they did have a grind that wasn't related to RNG.
SHB had memory farming
EW had no RNG

The difference this time around is the scale of RNG used. However I did hear that the atmas are a one time thing. So you don't need to do the same grind for all your weapons. Odds are that if you wait, the drop chance will be buffed later on.

Not meant to diminish your complaint. Just to point out that relics have for the most part, utilized RNG.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

No one can convince me that bad RNG for 5h or more with zero rewards is fun gameplay.

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If it was just that and nothing else. Sure I agree. But with the knowledge lvling and shadow job lvling, it's just an added bonus for me. I enjoy ocult so far.

i enjoy the boss, the leveling of fantom jobs is whatever, the lazy korean rng shit shouldn't exist on subscription game.
This is low quality, low effort, disrespectfull content.
But personally i am not on a rush considering the sage weapon looks like garbage.
I hope the person who designed this shit isn't getting paid for it.
Compared to the rest it really looks bad, rushed and stupid.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

Over a decade later and still the same arguments. Any detractors of the grind are called 'lazy' or they want 'handouts'.

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It's mostly that they can't understand that people DO want to do the grind...but they also want their time RESPECTED! The current grind is a one off grind, and yes it is similar to the atma grind of ARR's relic. That doesn't excuse the fact it is incredibly disrespectful of people's time. Nor does it make it a good grind.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

To be fair, most previous iteration of the relic also utilized the same method of RNG.
ARR had atmas
HW had the fate crystals
SB didn't. There they did have a grind that wasn't related to RNG.
SHB had memory farming
EW had no RNG

The difference this time around is the scale of RNG used. However I did hear that the atmas are a one time thing. So you don't need to do the same grind for all your weapons. Odds are that if you wait, the drop chance will be buffed later on.

Not meant to diminish your complaint. Just to point out that relics have for the most part, utilized RNG.

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Yeah, I've been playing since ARR and I remember these. I skipped the relics in ARR and HW for this reason.

I liked SHB a lot even though I remember it did need some RNG, but I recall the drop rate being a lot better. I remember playing for a few hours and walking away with a couple of the items I needed. This time I only got 1 after around 5 hours.

What pushed me away from SB was actually Eureka, not the relic grind. I actually am old enough to have played old school MMORPGs where you could lose exp for dying like EverQuest and Final Fantasy XI, so even though I was the target demographic for that zone, the thought of returning to that system made my skin crawl.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

To be fair, most previous iteration of the relic also utilized the same method of RNG.
ARR had atmas
HW had the fate crystals
SB didn't. There they did have a grind that wasn't related to RNG.
SHB had memory farming
EW had no RNG

The difference this time around is the scale of RNG used. However I did hear that the atmas are a one time thing. So you don't need to do the same grind for all your weapons. Odds are that if you wait, the drop chance will be buffed later on.

Not meant to diminish your complaint. Just to point out that relics have for the most part, utilized RNG.

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1) SB technically did have an RNG step, but not for completion: once you completed the Pyros step, what stats you got were RNG, but you could choose to not accept the new stats if they were worse, and once you saved the stat changes they gave you another stat slot (there are five total, only the first one is guaranteed at first), then you are guaranteed for all those stat slots to have stats at least. (The various Discord servers for the Baldesion Arsenal and Delubrum Reginae Savage farming have more in depth explanation for this part)

2) While the ShB had some RNG in them, I remember while doing them on content there was always at least one option that guaranteed the memory drops (Tortured/Sorrowful/Harrowing seemed to have a 100% drop rate in HW zones with a gold rating, Bitter were guaranteed in dungeons, Loathsome/Haunting/Vexatious I believe were guaranteed on the non-CE/FATE options pre-drop rate buff, and for the steps after those, I believe only PotD and HoH had RNG drop rates while the other options were guaranteed for theire respective drops, both for the one time steps and the farmed ones)

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Originally Posted by Qyoon

But personally i am not on a rush considering the sage weapon looks like garbage.

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I thought it was kind of funny how much the visual quality of the weapons varied. I was disappointed about the Sage weapon too, but maybe the upgrades will be better. I am a bit tired of the meme looks.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

I wanted a grind, but not an RNG grind.

I would prefer "gather 100 of this item" and each fate grants 1 item over "gather 18 of this item" and then play for 5 hours and get exactly 1, which is what I just did.

RNG grinds are the worst. I logged out wishing I had just spent those 5 hours playing a different video game.

Also, the bosses are hard enough to actually need you to focus, which means you can't just turn your brain off and listen to an audio book or youtube or something. So not only is it an extremely long grind where you do not make guaranteed progress, you have to pay attention during a lot of it.

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This is where we are as a community? Complaining that we have to pay attention? Good lord....