List of 7.1 PvP Change Grievances

What I still don't get - why are there no diminishing returns to Crowd Control when this patch added so much CC?
Purify is as finicky as it was before the patch, with a shorter duration,too
to me, it feels like you can just get CC't and burst down much easier than before. Or is that me perceiving the situation wrong? :think:

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Originally Posted by ovIm

What I still don't get - why are there no diminishing returns to Crowd Control when this patch added so much CC?
Purify is as finicky as it was before the patch, with a shorter duration,too
to me, it feels like you can just get CC't and burst down much easier than before. Or is that me perceiving the situation wrong? :think:

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If you're playing melee/tank and a few people on the enemy team are remotely competent, you're going to get mired in more CC than before the changes.

they latterly killed RDM what is this?

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Originally Posted by ovIm

What I still don't get - why are there no diminishing returns to Crowd Control when this patch added so much CC?
Purify is as finicky as it was before the patch, with a shorter duration,too
to me, it feels like you can just get CC't and burst down much easier than before. Or is that me perceiving the situation wrong? :think:

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I don't even think the devs that designed the current iteration even play this game

Mountain buster is fing useless now, if they insist on making ranged use melee distance attacks then they'd better give them melee DR to go with it :mad:

They need to have whoever originally designed the pvp jobs come back. They obviously were not involved this time around considering how soulless everything is now

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Originally Posted by ovIm

What I still don't get - why are there no diminishing returns to Crowd Control when this patch added so much CC?
Purify is as finicky as it was before the patch, with a shorter duration,too
to me, it feels like you can just get CC't and burst down much easier than before. Or is that me perceiving the situation wrong? :think:

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Because that would be abusable and would not work (and would frankly punish the use of CC outside of any serious burst).

They should have instead kept the amount of CC like it used to be, and keep Purify on 5s instead of that ridiculous 3s.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Because that would be abusable and would not work (and would frankly punish the use of CC outside of any serious burst).

They should have instead kept the amount of CC like it used to be, and keep Purify on 5s instead of that ridiculous 3s.

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Yeah, having played a lot more matches now, Purify dropping from 5s to 3s in a heavier CC environment is basically giving the middle finger to jobs that play at melee range. Plus just on general grounds, anything that lasts for 3s in a mode delayed by animation lock and netcode is bound to be unreliable at best.

Related to this, there are far fewer tanks on the field, so those that are get focused down more. Trying to get off Onsal Mid yesterday as heavy after heavy got dropped on me was not fun.

Something else I noticed was WAR's health gain via damage under bloodwhetting is far less reliable. My favorite disruptive play on Mid was rending the top of an enemy ramp, then using chaotic cyclone to heal as I escaped. Guess it could be the notorious skill issue, but I can't get my synonym-for-a-donkey out of there anymore.

Just played a match that felt characteristic and the following numbers jumped out.

Of the top 10 assists, all were ranged, 7 of them "healers." Not really surprising, I guess, but...
25/26 top kills were ranged.
30/31 top damage were ranged.

the last two would have been all ranged were it not for the same SAM.

Perfectly balanced mode.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Because that would be abusable and would not work (and would frankly punish the use of CC outside of any serious burst).

They should have instead kept the amount of CC like it used to be, and keep Purify on 5s instead of that ridiculous 3s.

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Eh, I think that kinda depends on how strong the diminishing returns are, and how long you have to wait until you are back to being fully CC-able. But I do understand your point there.

And yeah, a longer purify would have been preferred, definitely.

99% of the new CC spam is coming from AST's Gravity II which got buffed from single-target to AoE. To make matters worse they can hold another instacast Gravity II in reserve for that right moment, and they got Reaper's teleport. What in the hell were they thinking?

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Originally Posted by Alyko

99% of the new CC spam is coming from AST's Gravity II which got buffed from single-target to AoE. To make matters worse they can hold another instacast Gravity II in reserve for that right moment, and they got Reaper's teleport. What in the hell were they thinking?

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I was shocked by the reaper teleport, too. They created a monster

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Eh, I think that kinda depends on how strong the diminishing returns are, and how long you have to wait until you are back to being fully CC-able. But I do understand your point there.

And yeah, a longer purify would have been preferred, definitely.

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The problem I have with diminishing returns or imunities is that we had immunities added at some point halfway through SB. We had one for literally every type of CC, which was a pain to track. I guess you could make a single one for everything, essentially granting you a free purify past a point in effect, and this raises many... questions I feel. Diminishing returns on the other hand... Same, very hard to track.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The problem I have with diminishing returns or imunities is that we had immunities added at some point halfway through SB. We had one for literally every type of CC, which was a pain to track. I guess you could make a single one for everything, essentially granting you a free purify past a point in effect, and this raises many... questions I feel. Diminishing returns on the other hand... Same, very hard to track.

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Does seem that the simplest solution is to limit the amount of incoming CC through job modifications, rather than modifying the CC as it lands.

I feel like the damage penalty for DRG in PvP should apply to the LB only. Having a -20% damage is imho a bit too much, since you need BH 2 to counter it.

I also don't understand the addition of Drakesbane. I haven't played CC so perhaps that's where it has more value but in FL you will rarely be able to use it due to the short 10s bursts and the fact that both Heavens' Thrust and Starcross replace the basic combo.

Probably not the first person to bring this up but the delay in healing actions that are supposed to be instant is really frustrating. This relates to recuperate but also to skills like curing waltz or AST/WHM cures.

As with many other things outside of matches they go off instantly of course. But I can't count the number of times I've been in matches, attacked by multiple people, pressed recup/a healing skill frantically but nothing happens for 1-2 seconds and of course I die.

The same happens with guard (and of course purify) for me. If the goal was to make guard more responsive and activate faster it's not working for me half the time. It's the same as with heals: You press it (several times) clearly before you are hit but it gets lost in the queue of actions/the void/Narnia and you die.
Happens even more often when you are attacked by several people.

It's just double annoying when you know you actually had the proper reflexes in that moment and you could have survived if not for this delay.

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Another thing that bothers me is that they tie hits to animations but when I die and the animation plays out fully, no damage or effect is applied whatsoever.
I noticed that with many skills the damage is not actually triggered at the end of animations but at their "moment of impact"/when the skill actually touches the player.
(For example, BLM's fire/ice spells trigger their effect when the animation reaches the point in its progression where it hits the enemy and then it resolves/dissipates with more fire/ice effects.
Or picto's moogle beam which goes on for 1-2 seconds after hitting an enemy but the effect is applied on hit.)

So in many cases where I've actually finished executing my skill and I die after its "moment of impact" the game seems to prioritise my death above their animation all of a sudden.
It's probably due to netcode/delay/differences in stages of information processing on the server vs my PC again but if the delay is that big that I can basically finish my lengthy animation and the game is still lagging behind then that's annoying.

Esp. if in many other non-death situations the damage is actually applied on hit (at least on my screen). Just when I die everything gets scrambled it seems.
It makes reacting in split seconds impossible (e.g. when you know you are about to die but still want to fire off a skill right before that - which used to work in the past).

I noticed that today with WAR. Their LB no longer heals you when you deal damage which begs the question of "How is that job supposed to play in PvP now?"

Sure the damage buffs are nice on paper- until you factor in the passive damage reduction for WAR in Frontline- and the multiple sources of damage reduction available to other jobs/players. The animations are great but the damage is garbage.

Warrior used to be great at breaking enemy momentum by throwing themselves into the middle of the crowd and disrupting. The healing from Bloodwetting is awful. Whenever I use my LB now I immediately get focused down and killed.

GNB completely lost its identity.

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Originally Posted by NarhiFaunlha

I noticed that today with WAR. Their LB no longer heals you when you deal damage which begs the question of "How is that job supposed to play in PvP now?"

Sure the damage buffs are nice on paper- until you factor in the passive damage reduction for WAR in Frontline- and the multiple sources of damage reduction available to other jobs/players. The animations are great but the damage is garbage.

Warrior used to be great at breaking enemy momentum by throwing themselves into the middle of the crowd and disrupting. The healing from Bloodwetting is awful. Whenever I use my LB now I immediately get focused down and killed.

GNB completely lost its identity.

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To add insult to WAR's defensive injuries, the buff to Guard isn't helpful since we can't use it when we're most vulnerable during LB execution and the much longer period of trying to escape afterwards.

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Originally Posted by FatCatEnjoyer

The loss of class identity:
- My beloved Red Mage
- GNB Junction

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I do think the change for Gunbreaker makes more sense, given how that job's entire playstyle is dictated by what you and your team have in terms of composition. A lot of the job felt clunky to play in certain ways, like having to use Draw and Junction to get a a free Blast Strike, but doing so in some situations would change you off the Junction you wanted. This is from the perspective of a non-GNB main btw, so I don't want to say my words should be valued as highly, but just smth to think about.

Tried SMN and it's just so bad now, 3 out of 4 of our base primal attacks are melee, yet we still have all the disadvantages of a caster where innate defence is concerned.

Mountianbuster is by far the worst attack I've come across so far in trying the different jobs, you might as well not even have it on your bar (it'll be safer for you >_> ).

Can only be used in melee and is a VERY tiny cone attack, using it animation locks the SMN in place for about 2-3 seconds (in MELEE!), the delay on the attack is also about 2-3 seconds, which is more than enough time for the opponent/s to move out of the (VERY tiny) area you are trying to cast it on and turn around to 2hit KO you, which intern cancels the animation so the opponent/s don't get damaged or stunned anyway.....

It's literally a self KO button...

I agree with so much of this post but there are just some points that are plainly and factually wrong and I can't let you get away with these fallacious arguments because they are made in bad faith.

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Originally Posted by FatCatEnjoyer

- Astro's Macrocosmos somehow becoming a party-wide cooldown
- Astro has been buffed into the stratosphere

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Originally Posted by Alyko

99% of the new CC spam is coming from AST's Gravity II which got buffed from single-target to AoE. To make matters worse they can hold another instacast Gravity II in reserve for that right moment, and they got Reaper's teleport. What in the hell were they thinking?

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I'm not quite sure what the first bullet point above means on AST but overall this is wrong and it makes me think neither of you played AST in PVP before. AST already had access to all the things you are talking about.

Macro and Gravity have always been AOE in both PVP and PVE. Neither have had a buff in how many targets they hit. The second Gravity could already be held before the patch as well. Macro did receive a 2000 healing potency buff, much needed because of how that heal functions, but Gravity was nerfed not buffed. Gravity used to inflict AOE heavy on targets for the first hit and AOE bind on the second hit. It now inflicts heavy with both hits. The bind has been replaced with an AOE stun which is only accessible through AST's limit break follow-up. The loss of 3 binds per minute in place of 1 stun every 105s is, in fact, a nerf.

AST also was already a powerhouse with access to the things mentioned. Have you never run into an AST/DRK combo and how they wipe parties, especially in Frontlines, or do you not play that mode? Yes, it was DRG or SMN and DRK at first and recently it had been AST or RPR and DRK as the CC combo to look out for.

The only things I could entertain as "buffs into the stratosphere" for AST are its new teleport and its new set of cards. The Lord of Crowns gives a debuff that increases damage taken by 10% which is just broken on top of the limit break that gives the party a (decaying) 30% damage increase. But that is only broken to parties who can capitalize on the limited time power.

The teleport could be argued to be overpowered, but in my more honest opinion, it only brings AST up to standard with all the other jobs which each have a movement tool whereas only AST lacked one before. This can be compared to how jobs who had previously lacked a personal heal/shield in PVP have now just received--BLM or GNB for example--leaving really only BRD without a heal/shield. Both these things are purposed to bring them up to a standard competitive level against their opponents. And that brings me to my next point:

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Originally Posted by FatCatEnjoyer

The loss of class identity:
- My beloved Red Mage
- GNB Junction

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GNB's loss of Draw and Junction was simply what I just mentioned: to balance its healing against the other jobs. Imagine being a job whose healing is based on whether there is a healer on the map. Imagine being a tank whose defensive buffs are based on whether there is another tank on the map. Now imagine how D&J just came off cooldown in a fight, and now you have to target the healer, draw from them, then heal before switching back to you your main focus.

Heart of Corundum as both a defensive buff and a heal is much healthier for GNB that D&J, but with that said, I don't think they needed to get rid of D&J. They could have had both. And it was indeed a treasured callback to FF8.

RDM suffered from an aura that could be seen two screens away giving away its position. Even though the class was visible, it was considerably overpowered and we didn't ever talk enough about it.

Freely accessible healing or attack stances. Gap closer and jump back. Melee combo had separate stacking DOTs. Resolution was a choice between AOE bind or AOE silence. Frazzle or Magick Barrier. And all that atop of a fast gameplay where it can be near or far in an instant without losing uptime because it has both ranged and melee combos while most jobs have combos of only one aspect (say, melee), and the other aspect (ranged) is only accessible through 10s, 15s, and 20s cooldowns.

New RDM feels a bit less flavorful and is definitively not as powerful as before, but is by no means weak or useless. It still fulfills its niche, sends phys ranged and casters running and is the most fast-paced of all the ranged.

New RDM is actually meta now, unlike before. It follows behind AST and some tanks.
AST was already meta, now it's just outright broken on top of it. And the free teleport, it certainly didn't have it before, which on top of self healing and mitigation, makes it almost impossible to kill. I am not sure what you're on about teleport moves. SCH didn't have one either, and a lot of ranged didn't as well. A good amount of jobs also only have gap closers (SMN, tanks, SAM...), which is not the same thing at all. The RPR kind of teleport is the most powerful you can find in the current roster.

for my first bullet point, see this: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mb-question%29

speaking for strictly fl only: ast's dash made its already low risk gameplay even less low risk with movement and shields, and can potentially add another 8k ontop of their existing burst. i know macro and double cast were essentially unchanged (except for the bind) but I don't really care about what they already had, its what they added on top of a really well rounded kit
in cc: in a mirror match, you better hope that your astro is better than the mirror astro or youre going to get destroyed.

also, I never had a grievance about the power level of rdm or gnb, i think theyre fine (i miss my stance switches really bad though),only that they have less flavor than before

actually, there *was* a buff, didnt gravity go from 5y to 8y? or am i misremembering

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Originally Posted by FatCatEnjoyer

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Thanks for replying so I could understand. I thought there was something missing from what was meant by the first point. I don't know if that's a bug or not but I do think it may be intended because of how that heal functions. I'm not sure we want 3 ASTs all returning full heals at once in PVP. If that is indeed the intention, they should write it in the tooltips. And yes, I know your grievance wasn't the power of RDM or GNB, but the flavor. I was only explaining what I conclude with why flavor was changed given the evidence.

As for 5y to 8y, I can't find the tooltips. You're probably right then. I knew I should have screenshotted everything before the patch.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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I didn't say whatever you just typed. I said AST lacked a movement tool before and that most every class had one before. I did not say that everyone has specifically a teleport, or a jump back, or a gap closer. I was stating that most jobs have *something* for movement but AST had nothing. For example, SCH has Expedient, BRD has its Repelling Shot, DNC has En Avant, BLM has Aetherial Manipulation, WHM has Seraph Strike, SGE has Ikarus, RDM has both Corps a Corps and Displacement, SMN has Crimson Cyclone, and PCT has Smudge. That's all ranged but MCH to your discredit ("a lot of ranged didn't as well"). Poor MCH, if you count it which I don't, only has Scattergun. So what are *you* on about?

"A good amount of jobs only have gap closers" -- this is leading to my point; You agree with me, a good amount of jobs have *movement tools* regardless how that tool is expressed in their kit. That's what I was arguing.

Lastly, I did say I could see the argument how AST's teleport is overpowered. "The only things I could entertain as 'buffs into the stratosphere for' AST are its new teleport and..." I do see how AST has an overloaded kit and a teleport is too much. It could have received a sprint like SCH or nothing at all.

Did you read anything I initially wrote at all or are you just here to rage?

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Originally Posted by BlueMageQuina

I didn't say whatever you just typed. I said AST lacked a movement tool before and that most every class had one before. I did not say that everyone has specifically a teleport, or a jump back, or a gap closer. I was stating that most jobs have *something* for movement but AST had nothing. For example, SCH has Expedient, BRD has its Repelling Shot, DNC has En Avant, BLM has Aetherial Manipulation, WHM has Seraph Strike, SGE has Ikarus, RDM has both Corps a Corps and Displacement, SMN has Crimson Cyclone, and PCT has Smudge. That's all ranged but MCH to your discredit ("a lot of ranged didn't as well"). Poor MCH, if you count it which I don't, only has Scattergun. So what are *you* on about?

"A good amount of jobs only have gap closers" -- this is leading to my point; You agree with me, a good amount of jobs have *movement tools* regardless how that tool is expressed in their kit. That's what I was arguing.

Lastly, I did say I could see the argument how AST's teleport is overpowered. "The only things I could entertain as 'buffs into the stratosphere for' AST are its new teleport and..." I do see how AST has an overloaded kit and a teleport is too much. It could have received a sprint like SCH or nothing at all.

Did you read anything I initially wrote at all or are you just here to rage?

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If you're about to quote yourself, have the honesty to quote the full line: "The teleport could be argued to be overpowered, but in my more honest opinion, it only brings AST up to standard with all the other jobs which each have a movement tool whereas only AST lacked one before."

You admit that the teleport can be overpowered, BUT, and emphasis on BUT, you say it brings AST up to standard with other jobs, which means you're okay with it. Don't act surprised when people call you out on it?
On top of it, conflating gap closers with a teleport and say that all jobs are on that standards is disingenuous as well. Imagine comparing one way gap closers (most of them being only at the enemy) to that teleport?

Either way, if it was badly framed and just misunderstanding, then glad we do agree.

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Originally Posted by Valence

New RDM is actually meta now, unlike before. It follows behind AST and some tanks.
AST was already meta, now it's just outright broken on top of it. And the free teleport, it certainly didn't have it before, which on top of self healing and mitigation, makes it almost impossible to kill. I am not sure what you're on about teleport moves. SCH didn't have one either, and a lot of ranged didn't as well. A good amount of jobs also only have gap closers (SMN, tanks, SAM...), which is not the same thing at all. The RPR kind of teleport is the most powerful you can find in the current roster.

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(For Frontlines) RDM was already meta beforehand. Just hardly anyone bothered to play it properly. I got my Hand of Mercy on RDM. New RDM is awful. Gone are any tactical decisions; do you bind or silence an enemy, do you go for damage or shield. no choices now, can't have that. they didn't need to change RDM like this. All they had to do was make the ring invisible to enemies.
i hate what they have done to PVP with these changes. i'm glad i got my title, cause i doubt i will play as much as i did.

Ugh I hate how my prediction was right that Viper/Picto weren't just filler job kits but were pointing into the new direction PvP skillsets will develop: lite versions of PvE skillsets where you get 1 button to shoot your 6k potency attack with a generic stun if you're lucky... But the flavour of the month was picked to be guard disruption.

Not only that but the creative "fantasy" part is slowly even bleeding out from the last bastion of fun unique job design this game had it's quite sad.
But one thing in particular raised a couple of questions to me at least:

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Much like with PvE actions at the release of Dawntrail, we have introduced several new PvP actions, and made adjustments to pre-existing ones to better highlight the unique aspects of each job. We've also made changes to certain jobs' mechanics to provide players with a more enjoyable gaming experience.

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- (PLD) why is Paladin better in attacking than actually protecting their allies?
- (WAR) why is Primal Wrath getting a bind and not the actual chain attack Blota?
- (GNB) why was their draw and junction gimmick removed which was their entire thing they were based from?
- (WHM) is Glare 4 follow up the best a White Mage can come up with?
- (AST) was the bind effect when being hit by Gravity twice too realistic? RNG cards too unique? A skill called Oracle nothing more than a stun?
- (SGE) was being hit by double phlegma the only defining thing for a Sage?
- (MNK) what exactly is a close ranged martial artist for you in this game?
- (SAM) why is Mangetsu and Oka the same now? Just to give the new skill a secondary new effect?
- (DRG) is a simple 10k potency attack all that defines Dragoons now?
- (VPR) why is a PvE lite version of a job allowed here, especially now that their entire ignoring guard niche was distributed to almost all the other jobs? What are they supposed to do better than others?
- (BRD) why is the buffing specialist get a MP depleting attack? Is their musical performance that bad that it mentally drains the enemy?
- (MCH) Why is it trying to imitate PvE burst meta? Did the debuff plugin on Aerther Mortar into a DLC?
- (BLM) did you really have to turn Black Mage into a weird Aetherhue only Pictomancer in PvP too?
- (SMN) was a short cone aoe stun the best SMN could come up with? Not even an upheaval like Arcadion Boss 1?
- (RDM) is Red Mage defined by their magic fencing skills now? Why is their signature spell "Doublecast" so underutilized?
- (PCT) was this job really designed for CC and not primarily for Frontline to place more attention the job?

Exceptions:
- (DRK) fine - HP eater attacks ignore defenses usually to begin with so it's thematically sound
- (SCH) Chain Stratagem is actually thematically sound. Summon Seraph being a 60s normal skill copy now that is almost as slow as some limit breaks is not really justified
- (RPR) honestly the most natural extention of the job and something I thought everyone else would get
- (NIN) same as RPR it feels natural, even though Ninja really does everything even a guard crush but still on brand
- (DNC) The solo step upgrade is a very crafty way to reward a good dance partner performance

I'm seriously asking this cause I do not have any logical reasoning for most of those changes. If this is what they come up with after the people ranting about boring job design, 8.0 is destined to be the same old with just more empty promises thrown into the growing pile of lies

This seems to be the theme of the 7.1 PvP patch notes. The claims made by SE as to what they were trying to do with the changes, and how the changes work/appear in practice, seem mostly unrelated.

This doesn't even look optimized to me, but we just had a silent premade on FL of AST/BRD/MCH/BLM cut through the opposition quite impressively (all had BH5 within 4 minutes). Plus I've noticed enemy ASTs getting tagged more so I guess those who are trying are figuring this out a bit.

I'm still not ready to assert that DRK is dead since I'm pretty sure the 7.0 DRK commanders are still playing CC, although it's currently pretty useless. The power of AST alone does suggest we've had a major meta shift. But unfortunately I suspect organized light parties will be able to exploit the massive skill disparity on the field to create lop-sided matches, as before.

I suspect the animation lock and crowd control mean tanks can't play a frontline role anymore. Playing the same style as before the changes on WAR my typical deaths went from 0/1 to 4 (in before "skill issue") and that seems to be reflected in the performance of others playing the role. If my team is pushing it works great as a pursuit assassin, and in stand-offs I'm having success by leaping in whenever Purify is up and hoping it gets me out again. I can't figure out how to really burst, because any lingering leads to immobilization and death. Again, may well be I'm simply not good enough.

Anyone have any info on JP matches? Whatever the meta converges to will presumably show up there first.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This seems to be the theme of the 7.1 PvP patch notes. The claims made by SE as to what they were trying to do with the changes, and how the changes work/appear in practice, seem mostly unrelated.

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This is very much the theme with a lot of CS3 class adjustments, but its especially noticeable in this patches PVP adjustments. The "throw things at wall and see what sticks" approach they seem to have semi-recently adopted just reeks of incompetence, missing vision, and a lack of knowledge about their own game.

I've already talked about it in another thread but I would like to add it here too since this seems to be the closest to an "official" thread for collecting feedback.

Tl,dr: It seems like whenever an attack of yours is technically interrupted (for whatever reason) but the animation still plays out fully you get the worst of both worlds: no effect is triggered but the skill also counts as "executed".
If you used an oGCD it is now on cooldown and you’ve wasted it, if it was a GCD skill you'll get the GCD delay accordingly.

(Bold font for easier readability bc the text is so long.)

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This problem includes (but is probably not exclusive to):

1) When you die but your skill's animation still plays out fully
2) When your target dies to somebody else but your animation still plays out fully
3) (if I'm not mistaken) when people move around with skills such as teleports or jumps (not sure about dashes) -- I'm a bit hesitant here because I think I have observed this a couple of times but I can't rule out that my observation is incorrect on this one.
(Ironically, if somebody just runs out of your line of sight but your skill finishes casting, they do get hit.)

That's all I have noticed so far but perhaps there are more instances.


I do not think this can be counted as other people just "dodging" because a) AoEs should still affect everyone who gets hit by them. However this is not the case. Your AoE damage/utility gets lost in the void for good if your target becomes "unavailable". As a result everybody standing close to them remains safe/unaffected as well.

And b) it doesn't respect skills' usual "moments of impact" (more in a second). It just outright ignores them even when the point in the animation where damage and effects are normally registered has already played out (and should therefore have triggered effects).

What I mean with "moment of impact" is that for many skills their damage and effect are actually not registered at the very end of their animation but at that point in the animation where it visually "hits" the opponent (ignoring server delay for a second).
It's easily visible when using spells. After a spell visually touches a target and the damage/utility is applied the animation still has a visual resolution (flames dissipating, laser beam continuing to shoot etc.).
You can test it on a dummy and find out for your skills when exactly in the progress of their animation the damage and effects are registered according to the feedback on your screen (again, ignoring the discrepancy between processes on the server and the player's device).

Regarding my point from the beginning, this means even if your skill is technically nullified long after it should have hit according to the animation, it just flat-out doesn't count.
This makes "last moment" reactions like sending out one last attack/(de)buff before you die impossible, even though according to the animation you still had enough time to do so.
It is particularly frustrating when you lose defensive utilities like healing tied to the hit of your skills (e.g., healing on White Comet), esp. if they might have saved you had their effect been counted.

I'm not sure if this is a server delay thing because in my observation it happens categorically, even in games where your screen feedback and actual in-game events (seemed to) have more or less aligned so far.
(I wonder if there is just some priority system at works here if that makes sense from a technical standpoint?)


Either way, it is very, very frustrating and feels really unfair because you either lose resources frequently to things you can’t control. Or in the case of your death the entire gameplay aspect of “split seconds reactions” seems to have been “removed”/turned off (unintentionally or not). So when you’re certain you’re about to die you might just as well not bother pressing any buttons for some last actions because that stun you want to throw out for your remaining party’s benefit? Doesn’t work anyway in my experience.

I’d be very curious to know if others have experienced this as well or if this could somehow be a problem on my part.

I think some of this was a feature in 7.0, and the hit detection changes made matters significantly worse in 7.1. Of the things you mention, I think the following are particularly galling and non-sensical:

1. A skill doesn't land because the target died, yet the skill still goes on cooldown. This is bad in general and completely incomprehensible when the animation does not even start.

2. Health steal via damage actions. This used to be somewhat reliable (e.g., WAR under bloodwhetting). In 7.1 it seems mostly ineffective, or at least unpredictable and based on the whims of hit detection.

Along with the other issues you mention, this leads to a situation where the game appears very fast (lots of motion), but skill application feels like you're playing on ketamine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Tl,dr: It seems like whenever an attack of yours is technically interrupted (for whatever reason) but the animation still plays out fully you get the worst of both worlds: no effect is triggered but the skill also counts as "executed".
If you used an oGCD it is now on cooldown and you’ve wasted it, if it was a GCD skill you'll get the GCD delay accordingly.

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This was already a thing before 7.1. I've lost countless Wyrmwind Thrusts because I was polymorphed as I fired it, and even though the button was pressed, no damage or animation happened.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

This was already a thing before 7.1. I've lost countless Wyrmwind Thrusts because I was polymorphed as I fired it, and even though the button was pressed, no damage or animation happened.

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Yes because the damage resolution, even if calculated at snapshot, resolved later. Right now it still does resolve later (and sometimes much later depending on the skill), but whether it's calculated when it resolve due to the changes or not doesn't change the fact that the server thinks you pressed the button and used the skill anyway. Right now I'm getting ghosted Dances of the Dawn with no buff gained when I cast it on a target that dies too early before it lands.

That's the problem with increased delays like those, and the more time it takes for a skill to land, the more chances are that you'll either overkill/ghost/lose effects.

I am just so painfully confused about so many of the things I see in PvP that some might just be personal grievances, others I feel like everyone could stand by.

1. Why did they nerf [Purify]'s uptime and not make the downtime actually reasonable in an environment where most classes have some form of hard CC somewhere in their kit? Cooldown should've easily been 20s at the highest, 15s at the lowest for 3s uptime.
2. WHM spends Mana on casting [Miracle of Nature], but not [Cure 2]? Like it feels obvious it should've been the thing that got the Mana cost on it, like 2000MP because its 3k shy of [Recuperate].
3. NIN casually can do everything competently, from Sustain, AoE, Pursuit, Poke, Nuke, Guard Negation, Team Utility, and CC Pressure. They're a menace frankly, with an untouched Limit letting them defeat entire teams if they're not the only one alive. I don't want NIN gutted but jeez they're so painfully annoying to fight.
4. I still hate [Standard-Issue Elixir] and it went unchanged, a free full reset to your Health and Mana in an environment where now a lot of things take an age to actually connect to a target to interrupt the heal that says its 5s but as we all know with channels it doesn't actually abide to that and is like 4.3s. They really need to make the cast time 10s on it, or make it go on cooldown for 60s or something around that time.
5. Getting out of [Guard] feels awful, for the exchange of going into it feeling great. You can legit hard counter Limits like MCH's with it with good timing than just taking it after you're marked, but in turn if you're low health coming out of [Guard] you are basically dead, no chance if people are around you and hitting you.
6. VPR feels better for sure, but I still do not like how [Snake Scales] is almost a death-sentence a good portion of the time than a good stall tool and counter tool. The heal takes a moment too long to come out to be useful sometimes, and you lose your 50% MIT immediately on cast which it should have a 1s timer to retain that bonus when coming out if it so it isn't instant death when you're actionable. [Ouroboros] feels painfully clunky for how long it actually takes to come out, it feels like it takes 2 whole seconds to come out(I haven't tested) which for sure makes for weird disjointed damage and healing if you immediately go into [Snake Scales] right after but, why must it be like this?
7. MNK both feels better because it does have more AoE in it than prior, but some of the stuff just doesn't feel right. As stated by someone else, MNK's [Phantom Rush] takes an age to come out after you spend a while building it up, when it honestly should be a 3-Fold/5-Fold attack that equals up to its current potency for more consistency in actually getting the hit off. MNK really feels like they did NIN again but without all the utility it has than the Martial Artist it should be.

Why can you suffer from Heavy or Bind while in Guard? Guard got nerfed as it is with the multitude of pierces and debuff's, why do you also have to suffer from crowd control as well? This has been highlighted of course by AST 5sec Heavy making Guard a death sentence instead of an escape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DendrielConcade

I am just so painfully confused about so many of the things I see in PvP that some might just be personal grievances, others I feel like everyone could stand by.

1. Why did they nerf [Purify]'s uptime and not make the downtime actually reasonable in an environment where most classes have some form of hard CC somewhere in their kit? Cooldown should've easily been 20s at the highest, 15s at the lowest for 3s uptime.
2. WHM spends Mana on casting [Miracle of Nature], but not [Cure 2]? Like it feels obvious it should've been the thing that got the Mana cost on it, like 2000MP because its 3k shy of [Recuperate].
3. NIN casually can do everything competently, from Sustain, AoE, Pursuit, Poke, Nuke, Guard Negation, Team Utility, and CC Pressure. They're a menace frankly, with an untouched Limit letting them defeat entire teams if they're not the only one alive. I don't want NIN gutted but jeez they're so painfully annoying to fight.
4. I still hate [Standard-Issue Elixir] and it went unchanged, a free full reset to your Health and Mana in an environment where now a lot of things take an age to actually connect to a target to interrupt the heal that says its 5s but as we all know with channels it doesn't actually abide to that and is like 4.3s. They really need to make the cast time 10s on it, or make it go on cooldown for 60s or something around that time.
5. Getting out of [Guard] feels awful, for the exchange of going into it feeling great. You can legit hard counter Limits like MCH's with it with good timing than just taking it after you're marked, but in turn if you're low health coming out of [Guard] you are basically dead, no chance if people are around you and hitting you.
6. VPR feels better for sure, but I still do not like how [Snake Scales] is almost a death-sentence a good portion of the time than a good stall tool and counter tool. The heal takes a moment too long to come out to be useful sometimes, and you lose your 50% MIT immediately on cast which it should have a 1s timer to retain that bonus when coming out if it so it isn't instant death when you're actionable. [Ouroboros] feels painfully clunky for how long it actually takes to come out, it feels like it takes 2 whole seconds to come out(I haven't tested) which for sure makes for weird disjointed damage and healing if you immediately go into [Snake Scales] right after but, why must it be like this?
7. MNK both feels better because it does have more AoE in it than prior, but some of the stuff just doesn't feel right. As stated by someone else, MNK's [Phantom Rush] takes an age to come out after you spend a while building it up, when it honestly should be a 3-Fold/5-Fold attack that equals up to its current potency for more consistency in actually getting the hit off. MNK really feels like they did NIN again but without all the utility it has than the Martial Artist it should be.

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1) completely agreed. They added even more cc in the game, and Purify is pitiful. And I'm not even talking about using it to cover yourself during certain actions that take more time than its duration to wind up (*cough* Contradance *cough*).
2) Yeah I actually think you nailed something here, where heals from regen healers should probably cost mana even if they remain a gain on average on mana per heal potency. And if it makes it that Waltz on DNC also does, then so be it (i'll take damage boosts in compensation though please).
3) The defining trait of NIN has always been that it's a swiss army's knife so I'm fine with it. Its damage got buffed I think with Meppo, but the LB is too oppressive right now.
4) What would you do than once you're out of resources but managed to escape? Twiddle your thumbs until your MP and HP regens slowly? Or go back and die immediately?
5) It sucks because Purify and Recup take ages to resolve and have the same sludgey animation than almost every action now. You get out of guard, you instantly get stunned because your opponents have been waiting for this, and the time it takes to press purify, then recup, you're already dead unless you have a pocket AST. As a design it doesn't function properly in practice right now.

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Originally Posted by Valence

4) What would you do than once you're out of resources but managed to escape? Twiddle your thumbs until your MP and HP regens slowly? Or go back and die immediately?

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I just want a Give/Take with the [Standard-Issue Elixir], not a complete removal of it. As I suggested...

• A 10s cast time on it feels long but compared to dying, you'd be waiting for 10s, then waiting for the spawn animation to play, then you become actionable. I feel this is reasonable if you're doing a full health and mana reset on a button with no cooldown.
• A 45s/60s Cooldown with its current design at 5s Cast I feel would also be reasonable, it means someone hopping back into the fight after using it and being stuck in a bad position but not fully out of the game feels a bit more fair in my honest opinion.

I frankly feel like its worth changing somehow, my suggestions aren't the only thing worth to suggest of course, and the numbers aren't fixed, but I believe it needs to be changed no matter what.

I'd rather them to deal with AST/WHM combined to tanks being able to sustain for eons, which allows people to casually elixir again and again without their team disintegrating while they take their time, and see where we end up first. It's weird when you're in a team without an AST and tanks because suddenly your team feels incredibly brittle.

Because otherwise those solutions, honestly, even if I understand where you're coming from, don't sound fun to play with at all to me.

I'm enjoying the changes to RDM. I miss the DOT from the melee combo but it still works well. As for the game play mechanics, there is a delay with being able to use an ogcd after a gcd. This is a concern that should be addressed.