Physical ranged strike!

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I'll give you the same advice everyone gives healers.

If you want to do more DPS, go play a different role.

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That's a great advice. Did this and I've been having fun with the game.
The only downside is that you won't be able to play physical ranged and have fun anymore.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

That's a great advice. Did this and I've been having fun with the game.
The only downside is that you won't be able to play physical ranged and have fun anymore.

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I know! Why didn't we think of playing something else?! We should have to switch roles to have fun according to this person instead of SE fixing a very obvious problem. It's not even that we're not having fun it's that phys ranged is becoming un viable which is very bad.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

I know! Why didn't we think of playing something else?! We should have to switch roles to have fun according to this person instead of SE fixing a very obvious problem. It's not even that we're not having fun it's that phys ranged is becoming un viable which is very bad.

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The original poster of that comment is saying that ironically

“Play something else” is the biggest detractor of healing discussions as well

They aren’t actually saying play something else

Irony or not, playing something else is still the better answer while waiting for a fix and sharing feedback.
You'll have fun and learn to play a different role.

Obviously that's not the solution, just a temporary fix... Hopefully.
I gave up in ShB, still posting from time to time about MCH and trying it, but I've moved on.

Play something else, but don't stop sharing feedback.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Irony or not, playing something else is still the better answer while waiting for a fix and sharing feedback.
You'll have fun and learn to play a different role.

Obviously that's not the solution, just a temporary fix... Hopefully.
I gave up in ShB, still posting from time to time about MCH and trying it, but I've moved on.

Play something else, but don't stop sharing feedback.

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I'll play because I love it! Same with all aiming jobs but holy heck they need work. Surely SE can see statics are struggling to find prange and for good reason?

Imo, all of these strike threads should really band together into an overall XIV job design protest at this point. The fact the devs already intend for 8.0 to be the job identity expansion really highlights how every role is in a race to the bottom, with not even Black Mage and Viper being safe. Not to detract from the very real issues with how bad physical ranged feel, I just think with all of the recent discussion, it'd be vastly more productive for all of the roles to band together and point a metaphorical gun to the devs' heads on this problem.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

At the end of the day they aren't going to get rid of buffs and make everyone selfish that's cope beyond cope. But phys ranged needs a damage buff, more meaningful contribution and the whole concept of mch needs a rework. Dnc and brd need their play style adjusted.

There is a reason so many statics are struggling to find prange because the role is a mess and people walked away, and apparently now we're just not needed.

Whatever team did the job design this expac needs to be moved elsewhere. They gutted dnc, brd is clunky, mch may as well be deleted and pct is a God.

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I actually thought a bit about this.

The reality is that we won't break from homogenization as long as the 2min meta exists. The realm of "buffing others" uses to be a Rdps concept which eventually got expanded to every class. What this did is gave SE a window to put the DPS number into. So rather then SE balancing dps around varied time ranges of fights; they instead could simply say "how much damage does the class do in 2 minutes with these buffs" The result being that almost EVERY class what then designed with their damage kit to consider this - which is why single player experience can vary wildly and laughable as it may sound sort of high-lights how the Samurai was one of the more better designed dps class because its not designed around the 2 min meta; rather a continuous flow of damage which stops it from varying in most fights. As such the Samurai greatly benefits from the 2 min meta generally because it was designed to function without it; so when introduced to it the class damage output jumps; I feel that they tried to do that with the dancer class with feathers but failed miserably because it made dancer damage very erratic.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

I actually thought a bit about this.

The reality is that we won't break from homogenization as long as the 2min meta exists. The realm of "buffing others" uses to be a Rdps concept which eventually got expanded to every class. What this did is gave SE a window to put the DPS number into. So rather then SE balancing dps around varied time ranges of fights; they instead could simply say "how much damage does the class do in 2 minutes with these buffs" The result being that almost EVERY class what then designed with their damage kit to consider this - which is why single player experience can vary wildly and laughable as it may sound sort of high-lights how the Samurai was one of the more better designed dps class because its not designed around the 2 min meta; rather a continuous flow of damage which stops it from varying in most fights. As such the Samurai greatly benefits from the 2 min meta generally because it was designed to function without it; so when introduced to it the class damage output jumps; I feel that they tried to do that with the dancer class with feathers but failed miserably because it made dancer damage very erratic.

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The 2 minute meta isn't going anywhere they've doubled down on it. Feedback from all the way at the start of EW has been ignored.

That being said what needs to he more addressed in the case of physical ranged is the ranged tax which is an outdated concept and makes 0 sense with current encounter design

If this is serious, it's just as neccesary, likely to work and well thought out as the healer strike was.

Not at all.

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Originally Posted by PeppermintBrown

If this is serious, it's just as neccesary, likely to work and well thought out as the healer strike was.

Not at all.

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Read the post it's not serious and even states the title is a joke. But what isn't a joke is the state of physical ranged as a role

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I'll give you the same advice everyone gives healers.

If you want to do more DPS, go play a different role.

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Yea, Screw those Ranged dps, it not like they fill a ------->DPS<-------- Spot or anything. People are so weird for expecting damage from a role about dealing damage.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Yea, Screw those Ranged dps, it not like they fill a ------->DPS<-------- Spot or anything. People are so weird for expecting damage from a role about dealing damage.

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Yeah pranged dps is so sadge and mch most of all at least the others kinda compensate with buffs

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

That's a great advice. Did this and I've been having fun with the game.
The only downside is that you won't be able to play physical ranged and have fun anymore.

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It's the solution that all the people mocking the healer strike came up with.

Just switch out, go ignore the problem and quietly watch Square dig that hole deeper.

Might as well give it out to everyone else who has any problem with any of their Jobs.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

It's the solution that all the people mocking the healer strike came up with.

Just switch out, go ignore the problem and quietly watch Square dig that hole deeper.

Might as well give it out to everyone else who has any problem with any of their Jobs.

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You mean "Play other jobs." but also "Screw you for making our queues longer." and also, also "All the healers I've been getting in my roulettes suck!"

It's almost as if all of those are related, but what do I know?

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62

While FFLogs does not speak to all the problems, it does point out where phys range stand compared to everyone else. I do recall a few years ago their argument with Ninja and dancer dps being much lower than others is because it buffed other people. So those dps that did not buff others were supposed to be concidered greedy and do more dps than those who did buff others. Seems they just decided to make this a melee dps world, period. And before we go off on a rant about fflogs being third party and not acceptable, we all know devs do look at it to see where classes stand.

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Originally Posted by Isala

You mean "Play other jobs." but also "Screw you for making our queues longer." and also, also "All the healers I've been getting in my roulettes suck!"

It's almost as if all of those are related, but what do I know?

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it is as clear as sun,

Healers and tanks are so boring,

Tanks need to get unique,

Healers need to get "healing kit" simplified not "DPS kit" which need to have its complexity

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Originally Posted by JC65

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62

While FFLogs does not speak to all the problems, it does point out where phys range stand compared to everyone else. I do recall a few years ago their argument with Ninja and dancer dps being much lower than others is because it buffed other people. So those dps that did not buff others were supposed to be concidered greedy and do more dps than those who did buff others. Seems they just decided to make this a melee dps world, period.

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DMG isn't the only problem my dear,

Risk and reward structure is not there for range physical,

Melees are more into boss (they have to dodge more compared to other roles)

Casters have range but also have cast as a downside,

Phy range have no downsides other than damage which is bad for game balance,

As I said, Phy range should have Walking cast like PvP kit for Bard and Machinist to make them not only unique but satisfying and balance

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Originally Posted by Tunda

it is as clear as sun,

Healers and tanks are so boring,

Tanks need to get unique,

Healers need to get "healing kit" simplified not "DPS kit" which need to have its complexity

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The damn game is so boring now. The game is so simplified, SE thought that adding a button you push every two minutes was peak game design. I'm so tired, man.

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Originally Posted by Isala

The damn game is so boring now. The game is so simplified, SE thought that adding a button you push every two minutes was peak game design. I'm so tired, man.

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Their solution to having a few buttons to press in a small window every 2 minutes is adding more buttons to press in a small window every 2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

DMG isn't the only problem my dear,

Risk and reward structure is not there for range physical,

Melees are more into boss (they have to dodge more compared to other roles)

Casters have range but also have cast as a downside,

Phy range have no downsides other than damage which is bad for game balance,

As I said, Phy range should have Walking cast like PvP kit for Bard and Machinist to make them not only unique but satisfying and balance

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Yes and no. Phys range are normally given the mechanic tasks that do not require positionals, honestly in some ways when I played monk it was more braindead since you just attack, move to positional attack. Melee can ignore a lot more mechanics than phys range since we are asked to do more. I guess it depends on the group, but phys range are tasked with making sure they are out enough that melee can keep their uptime, yet get back in for a stack. Phys range is no less challenging in many respects as they have to have their head on a swivel while the melee just punch away. No dps has it much easier than others. And why should blm be so far ahead of us on dps, they actually have it easier with the porting around and almost complete magic immunity at times.

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Originally Posted by JC65

Yes and no. Phys range are normally given the mechanic tasks that do not require positionals, honestly in some ways when I played monk it was more braindead since you just attack, move to positional attack. Melee can ignore a lot more mechanics than phys range since we are asked to do more. I guess it depends on the group, but phys range are tasked with making sure they are out enough that melee can keep their uptime, yet get back in for a stack. Phys range is no less challenging in many respects as they have to have their head on a swivel while the melee just punch away. No dps has it much easier than others. And why should blm be so far ahead of us on dps, they actually have it easier with the porting around and almost complete magic immunity at times.

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Very much this! Any mechanic that requires adjusting is always given to the phys ranged

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Very much this! Any mechanic that requires adjusting is always given to the phys ranged

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Which is so rare that it basically never justifies the role and half the time nobody adjusts and you just take the penalty

Two key mechanics I can think of for this were intemperance where the bad combo you were supposed to flex the MT and the ranged but 99% of the time parties would just opt for the tank to take the damage down. Same as whatever the mechanic was called in O11 where the ranged were supposed to bait the missiles, instead the PLD went and stood in the corner and pressed hallowed ground to ignore the mechanic

About the only time I can think of that phys ranged actually flexed based on their role’s strengths was BRD was first priority for kiting the renalds in T7 but that was way back when phys ranged had a very different niche in the party

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Originally Posted by JC65

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/62

While FFLogs does not speak to all the problems, it does point out where phys range stand compared to everyone else. I do recall a few years ago their argument with Ninja and dancer dps being much lower than others is because it buffed other people. So those dps that did not buff others were supposed to be concidered greedy and do more dps than those who did buff others. Seems they just decided to make this a melee dps world, period. And before we go off on a rant about fflogs being third party and not acceptable, we all know devs do look at it to see where classes stand.

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This is utterly depressing to look at , the disparity between phys range and everyone else has just been getting bigger and bigger since SHB. Yikes. This also got worse compared to the expansion launch numbers.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Melees are more into boss (they have to dodge more compared to other roles)

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Phys ranged get to dodge just as many mechanics and also get their own unique mechanics that they have to resolve the same way melees do, what are you even on about?

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Originally Posted by Tunda

As I said, Phy range should have Walking cast like PvP kit for Bard and Machinist to make them not only unique but satisfying and balance

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Please do not even muse bringing back HW caster bard. It felt terrible. They removed it for a reason. And no it wasn't satisfying at all to play in PVE.

I really don't know who on the balance team has it out for this role , they've genuinely treated phys range like dogshit for several expansions.

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Originally Posted by GreenLeafy

This is utterly depressing to look at , the disparity between phys range and everyone else has just been getting bigger and bigger since SHB. Yikes. This also got worse compared to the expansion launch numbers.



Phys ranged get to dodge just as many mechanics and also get their own unique mechanics that they have to resolve the same way melees do, what are you even on about?



Please do not even muse bringing back HW caster bard. It felt terrible. They removed it for a reason. And no it wasn't satisfying at all to play in PVE.

I really don't know who on the balance team has it out for this role , they've genuinely treated phys range like dogshit for several expansions.

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People think that mobility means we don't need to dodge anything or that mechanics miss phys ranged or something

I think HW BRD was a bowmage mostly because MCH was designed around Gauss Barrel adding cast times and damage and they thought BRD would be imbalanced comparatively. It worked better on MCH, as it was given more buttons that allowed it to move freely and even buttons to guarantee it could move freely, while BRD had to rely on a proc that it could not overcap or control, and limited movement even further with an oGCD weapon skill with a cast time (Empyreal Arrow, which specifically actually felt great because it was so much stronger and chonkier than the rest of BRD's actions at that point, comboing with Barrage, too, but I digress).

This was removed wholesale from BRD but not from MCH until ShB, as MCH relied on Flamethrower to control its central heat gauge mechanic in StB which required planting its feet for a bit like Ten Chi Jin. Very little reason for Flamethrower to exist now.

I'm just pointing it out to bring up that having some cast times or mobility constraints shouldn't be completely tossed. Playing BRD and MCH in PvP, they do actually feel like they hit much harder and the cast while moving actions are satisfying to use. Give em a try at least at the wolves den if you never have. Not saying they all need it, but it's a potential solution to making the three pranged feel more diverse in how they play in between burst phases.

I remember older fights definitely had more for pranged to do as they tended to have more mechanics centered on a single player that the team could control with movement which allowed them to excel at as they had no movement constraints. T7 was already brought up as one that happened often enough that you couldn't just tank cheese, but there was also t8 guided missile tether (even Brainjack could be solved by pranged if you wanted to solo tank it), Ramuh Extreme always targeting the furthest player +1 not aggro target with Chaos Strike, things to interrupt and heavy, even bind in some places (though that was basically never necessary even in t7).

I'd say give pranged more unique support to the party. MP, TP and enmity are basically gone, and everyone and their mother buffs damage of the group now (and even heals and mitigates it), so also give em like... I dunno, group wide True North, Arm's Length or steal Expedience from SCH. Let them support the party in whatever way they can, and let em do it in ways they are different from each other. Maybe DNC also shares role actions with its partner and whoever temporarily gets Espirit. Let MCH toss out turrets that pulse the effects like Bishop did. BRD's songs could be given more freedom to cycle (they're rigid now) and just carry additional benefits, or they could be given unique songs with those effects. Go nuts.

Yoshi-P specifically blamed North America for the existence of the 2-minute meta. He mentioned that NA players requested this change because they did not want to hold their buffs for later alignment in raids. Since some individuals would use their buffs on cooldown, it led to a loss in raid DPS. Their data showed that players, especially veterans, would frequently hold and synchronize their buffs during fights. Therefore, even if the 2-minute meta hadn't been implemented, the player base would likely have developed it subconsciously.

I would personally just nuke group-based utility from every other DPSer BUT the aiming niche. Well, not deleting, but reworking them: everything that affected the whole group now affects just the player (eg. Mantra, Magick Barrier), essentially becoming individual utility.

Addle and Feint are also moved to the aiming role actions with shared recast times.

I feel the support aspect could be further enhanced with a move like this.

For the love of god, don't add casts to phys range.

I play phys range for this exact reason, I don't worry about casting or tunnel vision on positionals and to me that was comfy. I had a bad experience tanking so I decided I'd never tank/heal in savage. I was able to dip my toes into savage thanks to it, I don't enjoy savage but the comfort of freedom of movement is nice, I can focus on mechanics and myself. My smooth brain enjoys it. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

For the love of god, don't add casts to phys range.

I play phys range for this exact reason, I don't worry about casting or tunnel vision on positionals and to me that was comfy. I had a bad experience tanking so I decided I'd never tank/heal in savage. I was able to dip my toes into savage thanks to it, I don't enjoy savage but the comfort of freedom of movement is nice, I can focus on mechanics and myself. My smooth brain enjoys it. Thanks.

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They're talking about casts where you can move while casting without interrupting the cast like in PVP so that the ability takes longer to use and should therefore hit harder

they should just bring uptime management back to melees. then phys ranged can keep their low dmg

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Originally Posted by Asari5

they should just bring uptime management back to melees. then phys ranged can keep their low dmg

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That's not true either, like at all. Right now there's the question of whether or not it's worth ditching the 1% and bringing double Caster over phys because damage is so low. So even making melees fight for uptime (which they won't do) isn't a complete fix

you dont have to bring double melee though

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Originally Posted by Asari5

you dont have to bring double melee though

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But they will for more damage and leave out phys ranged all together

I feel like MCH should be doing selfish DPS numbers up there with SAM, VPR and BLM.

Instead of just being the potd job

There are a lot of reasons why the 'natural order of things' has always been to let Magical Ranged DPS outperform their Physical Ranged counterparts.

The biggest point is utility. Physical Ranged DPS bring a lot of non-raise utility to the raid. They bring raidwide defensives, for example. It's not like you would ever see a high damage Magical Ranged DPS with a 90s recast raidwide barrier. Physical Ranged are also far more mobile. Could you ever imagine a Magical Ranged job with a 20s recast fixed distance gap closer with 5 seconds of sprint per use (25 seconds of total in-combat sprint per minute)? Perish the thought. Compounding this is the fact that Magical Ranged jobs have to deal with 'casts', which is a mechanic unique to the role. A lot of players struggle with these 'casts' because you have to stay in one spot to get the attack off. It's not like you can just pop out a hammer or use stockpiled instant attacks to move around the arena freely while attacking. You also have to manage MP as a resource. And it's also worth remembering that bringing a Physical Ranged job even gives you a 1% damage buff. That's like what, 1.5k extra DPS? That has to be balanced out as well.

I can't see how this expansion could possibly have introduced a balance problem around this.

/s

The free movement is super overrated, the only thing that actually matters is being able to hit the boss from range which like magical ranged can do, and they do a better job. Legitimately, the safest way to play phys ranged is to be on the boss's butt to be in position to be in range of party buffs, and heals, and to be ready to resolve mechanics, and to minimize your movement like a caster. Fights are not actually designed so that free movement has an advantage -- not even super chaotic fights like m2s. BRD may as well have cast times for how little I have to move even during something like the bullet hell heart phase. Give BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do in PVP. I'm sick of phys ranged not being treated like real dps job by the devs.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

The free movement is super overrated, the only thing that actually matters is being able to hit the boss from range which like magical ranged can do, and they do a better job. Legitimately, the safest way to play phys ranged is to be on the boss's butt to be in position to be in range of party buffs, and heals, and to be ready to resolve mechanics, and to minimize your movement like a caster. Fights are not actually designed so that free movement has an advantage -- not even super chaotic fights like m2s. BRD may as well have cast times for how little I have to move even during something like the bullet hell heart phase. Give BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do in PVP. I'm sick of phys ranged not being treated like real dps job by the devs.

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Phys ranged is barely treated like a real dps job by some other dps players. It's in an awful state

I have posted my many, many…many grievances with Bard in others so I won’t go off on another rant again lol (too much) But I stopped considering my ‘main’ job after Stormblood/Shadowbringers, so I guess you could consider that a ‘ranged strike’.

Tbh though I do enjoy still enjoy Dancer (dps issues aside) and Machinist, but I’ve not even got them to level 100 yet so maybe that’ll change when I do.

And honestly I’m gonna say it lol I’m jealous of Red Mage and Summoner getting so much valuable support (healing, raise, buffs) then Bards are still sat there watching the entire party die sadly strumming their harps. How come they get all the fun stuff and we get… 45-second cool-down Esuna??? . I mean, even Dancer has Waltz and Improvisation. Unfair!

Steaming hot take but I’d honestly be ok with healer/tank level damage if we had more ways to support the party than being a ‘passive rDPS vendor’ with an Esuna nobody wanted and a heal boost that nobody knows what it does lol.

Tl;dr save us Yoshi-P! Phys ranged are so bad right now they’re driving people* insane!

*it’s me I’m the people

I think I would probably target about 10-15% less damage than melee for phys ranged. The fact there is zero need for planning around cast times factors in and the utility would factor in more if it were actually called for more often (why is my interrupt so rarely called for anyway, it's like the whole mechanic died in SB), I don't think the party buffs phys ranged brings is a valid argument for reducing their damage much though, DRG, NIN and RPR all have party damage buffs. I'd then suggest for MCH, that if phys ranged party buffs add 10% to rdps then MCH should receive that same 10% to it's basic dps.

Really though I think they need to give us more to do rather than just more dps.

lol Phys ranged can be summed up by DNC promotion going into Shadowbringers.

SE: "Hey guys check this out! Its Gunbreaker! Isnt it cool!? It zooms around with a big sword gun! You can be all like Bang bang bang slash slash slash! So edgy, So cool! You can be Squall now! Hey looks its Thancred! Hes a GNB now! So cool right? Hes such a great character and now hes the best tank job too! So great! And hes looking after a girl who looks like Minfilia! Max dad vibes to boot! Dont you just want to play a Gunbreaker so badly now? You can be cool like him! Oh and were going to have this zone, Bozja, you probably wont like it but it will be totally full of Gunbreakers as will Garlemald in the next expansion! Their so amazing!!!!"

In small text you can barely read: "Oh yeah Dancers here too but nobody will care about them, we dont, none of us at SE are even going to play them."

Then in large text and all caps: "Iiiiiits guuunbreeeeeaaaaker! SO much cool! So much edge! So zoomy! It even has a shield you can freak your healers out with! And look at these glams!" Small text: "Were going to share their Neo Ishgardian tank style glam with bullet belt with aiming like we did with the Late Allagan because we cant be bothered to give Phys range something fitting, none of us on the Dev team want to play them anyway so why put any effort into giving the role good things?" Big text again: GUNBREAKER!!!!!!!! Sugoi!