Normal Raids need dps check and enrage time

Nope they sure don't that's why have you savage. Very tired of ones thinking everything should be ultra-high difficulty and not ever thinking about those that don't like it. If don't think game is hard enough already find another that's harder and quit forcing it on to everyone else. Want it harder change settings to minimum item level and silence echo.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

2) there needs to be some way to curb the amount of rezzes that can be done in a fight, you shouldn’t be allowed to rezz bot a 7 minute fight into a 22 minute fight just because you have one semi competent rezzer and a whole bunch of people who have no idea what they are doing

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I had 29 death Eden Furor (Garuda+Ifrit) raid from roulette yesterday. 6 people completely ignoring mechanics and dying to everything.

Sure, normal content should be tuned for everybody, but being able to brute force it in such absurd manner is too much.

After some rather boring waiting to test it... A8, a.k.a. Brute Justice, on the normal difficulty has an enrage timer of 12 minutes, at which point it just smacks the entire party for instakill damage. That fight with an average group didn't take anywhere near 12 minutes even back during HW when every Job was objectively weaker.

The enrage timer doesn't make it harder, just makes it so that there's a failstate if everyone just keeps dying constantly.

I’m lukewarm on enrages. But, I would love more DPS checks to spice up encounters. Stuff like the cages from Quickthinks A7 really made that fight memorable. Not something that would cause a full raid wipe, but did punish you for not hitting the dps marks.

With respect, you're saying a lot of exaggerated, contradictory, and simply untrue things.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

you have given all the weight and responsibility to the healers.

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While "all" is hyperbolic, it's true that healers carry more of the weight in 8-person content. But also: that's fine. It's healthy for the game to have jobs that have more responsibility and jobs that have less responsibility; different strokes for different folks. But make no mistake: all jobs have responsibility. More on that shortly.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

DPS IS TOO EASY, THEY DIE, fail every rotation

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They're dying and failing? If DPS are not succeeding, then by definition DPS is not too easy.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

and don't take any blame

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Why are you blaming people for anything in normal content? That's counterproductive. If things go wrong, just get up and try again. And if someone else is doing the blaming, report them for violating the ToS. Just play the game and have fun, even when you're wiping. Then celebrate when you win as a team.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

there is not such a thing as a "dps check" in normal raid.

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This is simply not true; plenty of normal raids have DPS checks. Coils, Alexander, Omega, Eden, Panda, and Arcadion all have DPS checks at certain points. They just tend to be pretty easy to clear, which is likely why you haven't even registered them. And that's by design, because if they were actually difficult, you'd rarely get matched with a group capable of clearing them. And then instead of complaining about the division of responsibility, you'd be complaining about being unable to clear without a pre-made.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

This is UNFAIR, everyone should be part of the victory

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Everyone is already part of the victory. If you don't already understand that, there's an easy way to learn firsthand: queue with a pre-made party for the new raids, have all 4 of your DPS immediately kill themselves, never raise them, and then continue fighting until you achieve victory. You'll notice a meaningful difference in the experience you have, and that difference is because you're lacking what the DPS are contributing to the victory.


In short, everything's fine the way things are, and if you got what you're asking for (enrages) then you would have an even worse time because the average normal raid would never be victorious; the DPS simply wouldn't be good enough. Which is why the devs reserve enrages for Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate content. Thankfully, if you like that kind of thing, you can do the content that already has it.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

I’m lukewarm on enrages. But, I would love more DPS checks to spice up encounters. Stuff like the cages from Quickthinks A7 really made that fight memorable. Not something that would cause a full raid wipe, but did punish you for not hitting the dps marks.

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Yes, I think this sort of thing would fit better into Normal Modes than full on hard-enrage timers for encounters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the purpose of enrage timers is basically to protect players from themselves and doing stupid things like fighting Absolute Virtue from FFXI over 30 hours nonstop, and to prevent cheese compositions like bringing 8 WARs instead of a normal party with jobs that can actually die. Not so much to give difficulty, and for the most part it's fine that the normal modes no longer have hard enrages IMO.

Many fights in this game do have shorter mid-fight dps checks, starting as early as Ifrit Normal's nails, and in fact the ones that don't for trials are sort of the anomalies. Earlier on in the game, more dungeons and raids also had these. We see DT Trial 1 has this while 2 and 3 (and the raids) do not.

Meanwhile, the cool dps checks I can think of are plentiful in Alexander (thought you wouldn't be aware of them if you ran them the first time today, mostly due to players being far too powerful):
a1n kiting and killing adds under missiles before they shrink players and before they impact the arena
a3n every add missed on the whirlpool phase causes damage to the group
a4n not culling adds is a quick way to get too much debuff and explode the raid
a5n more chances to have silly names on adds like Gobbledygroper
a7n without targeted dps cages could kill isolated players
a9n beyond the core mechanic of smelting, faster dps meant you could kill the Jagd Doll in a quadrant that would dip into the slag pool sooner and remove the boss's defensive buff sooner
a10 just has the typical mid-fight dps check with the Gobroller
a11n has E.D.D. an add that blows up if not dealt with reasonably quickly. But, special mention to a11s: E.D.D. has a mid dps check dps check, you have to break his backpack before he finishes a cast or he gets full hp and starts one shotting players.
a12n has the mid-fight dps check (builds LB) and the timegates.

Arguably a6n could go harder on each individual boss in the gauntlet because they're all short dps checks and you could continue from where your group was if you wipe on one of them.

It's also refreshing to see the return of things like ice tombs for failing a mechanic on trial 1; a penalty that dps (and thus all players) can help out with by breaking them, a sort of dps save check. We don't get those too often. I think the last one may have been Memoria Miseria Ex from touching the wall, and that was just a single tap to free a player.

Nobody is asking for the checks to be insanely tight, or the enrage timers to be particularly restrictive...

I haven't been looking at the timer when doing Arcadion, but I'm fairly certain something like a 12-14 minute Enrage timer that we actually used to have would only filter out pretty much the very bottom % of players.
Those timers might just be actually longer than what current Extremes have.

Edit: What people seem to think instantly when talking about adding enrage timers is people expecting like perfect performance from everyone in a normal raid... But the level of playing that actually would be expected is more along the lines of "Fire is bad. Do not stand in fire."

There should be a dps check in normal raids AND also dungeons, but only to enforce the trinity. It should be so lenient that a group with 2 tanks 2 healers and "4 zombie dps" can easily clear it without ever knowing an enrage timer even exists, but strict enough that a group of only tanks can't.

I also think it's ok for there to be a "zombie role" that all the players with a physical or mental disadvantage can choose and still clear normal content with many deaths. That role definitely should no longer be the healer role. Support roles by their nature require more encounter awareness and attention towards the party, so their design and level of involvement in encounters should be aimed at more capable players who can fully utilize that support capacity and complexity. Dps roles can also be aimed at capable players with plenty of room to optimize while still allowing less capable players to complete content as a dps by not imposing strict dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

I had 29 death Eden Furor (Garuda+Ifrit) raid from roulette yesterday. 6 people completely ignoring mechanics and dying to everything.

Sure, normal content should be tuned for everybody, but being able to brute force it in such absurd manner is too much.

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I always queue for normal raids as RDM unless I'm with friends and yeah....I've definitely done my share of Eden Furors where I did about 10+ rezzes haha I feel like that probably shouldn't be a thing. I don't think normal needs a very punishing enrage timer, (Stormblood had VERY lenient enrage timers in their normal raids) but the number of times I've dragged groups to the finish line on RDM is a little excessive.

I'm fine if they add dps checks in normal content but it has to make sense from a narrative perspective and not just a game mechanics perspective. Like if we are having a Rockman Zero 4 scenario where we are atop of a falling meteorite or space station and there is limited time to blow the thing up before it destroys the planet or something, that is where a dps check makes sense. If it is a boss just deciding to finally use his doomsday laser cannon that he magically had in his backpack the entire time to one shot us at the 10 minute mark, that is a bit immersion breaking.

Also, they do have some DPS checks in the game already in normal content, but people don't really notice them. Just about all the Ultima weapon fights have one that is insanely low: I think people have to be literally not pressing any buttons in order to get blown up by them, or the raid has to be mostly dead.

All I'll say is I love the soft enrage of Wicked Thunder, particularly because I main healer. I've always hated hard enrages. "Hurrr you hit 10 minutes GG." But I love soft enrages that are worked into the mechanics, story, and characters.

tl;dr: More soft enrages like Wicked Thunder in normal.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

With respect, you're saying a lot of exaggerated, contradictory, and simply untrue things.

Everyone is already part of the victory. If you don't already understand that, there's an easy way to learn firsthand: queue with a pre-made party for the new raids, have all 4 of your DPS immediately kill themselves, never raise them, and then continue fighting until you achieve victory. You'll notice a meaningful difference in the experience you have, and that difference is because you're lacking what the DPS are contributing to the victory.

In short, everything's fine the way things are, and if you got what you're asking for (enrages) then you would have an even worse time because the average normal raid would never be victorious; the DPS simply wouldn't be good enough. Which is why the devs reserve enrages for Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate content. Thankfully, if you like that kind of thing, you can do the content that already has it.

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With respect, you are saying that DPS right now are useful only to hasten the kill and it's true.
DPS haven't a key role, and having them alive or moping the ground makes no real difference.
The problem, as I read from many replies, is that they are aware of this, abuse it, and they want to continue to abuse it.

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Yoshida said something like "this is a test patch (for the content difficulty)". It's true and everyone should be tested.
Enrage is not a good solution? Ok, fine it's not a good solution, throw the enrage in the bin. Another thing will do the trick then.

I'm not running away from the challenge and I'm not asking a SAVAGE difficulty in normal content (or are you implying that healers right now are playing a savage level in normal content?),
I'm asking that everyone is challenged.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

After trying a few times the 4 normal raids, I came to a conclusion:

you have given all the weight and responsibility to the healers.

Yes, a very noisy and -PARTLY right- group said healing was too easy (and I feel that too, in EW was a walk in the park), but now I say something different.

DPS IS TOO EASY, THEY DIE, fail every rotation and don't take any blame because there is not such a thing as a "dps check" in normal raid.

This is UNFAIR, everyone should be part of the victory and we don't have to win just because the healer is perfect and we have 4 zombies raising over and over until the boss die.

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Forum needs a reality check. Please go play another game.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

[IMG]In that case, we need spectator mode.

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You know, spectator mode would actually be really cool.

No this is just insane, what happens if all four dps queue in and they are all new?? You gonna start berating them about not doing good enough? Hell no, enrage stays in EX savage and ultimates for a reason. Forcing harder requirements into normal content where it can appear in a roulette is just crazy.

Some days I don't want to go all out on a fight, I won't die at all but I don't do like 1/4 my rotation as I should or usually would.

The game doesn't have a nearly intricate enough gearing system to justify any leaps in difficulty of this level.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

No this is just insane, what happens if all four dps queue in and they are all new?? You gonna start berating them about not doing good enough?

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Yeah? Why not? Tanks have to deal with being told to pull more and use their mitigations or healers to do more DPS while keeping people alive, don't see why DPS should be getting a clear pass to use 3 buttons and be happy with it.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

With respect, you are saying that DPS right now are useful only to hasten the kill and it's true.

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And Healers are only useful to keep DPS alive. Both roles need each other, and you're throwing rocks in a glass house.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

I'm asking that everyone is challenged.

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If your goal is for everyone to be challenged, then by your own admission your goal has been met. If DPS are dying, if DPS are having trouble doing their rotations, then they are clearly being challenged. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Yeah? Why not? Tanks have to deal with being told to pull more and use their mitigations or healers to do more DPS while keeping people alive, don't see why DPS should be getting a clear pass to use 3 buttons and be happy with it.

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Difference there is whether or not tanks pull more, and whether or not healers do more DPS - neither of those affect the ability of the party to complete the content, all that changes is the amount of time it takes. Putting a hard enrage on the DPS potentially makes a run entirely unable to be completed.

I don't see DPS checks or hard enrages happening in Normal content. Remember, the DF and Roulette systems exist precisely so that new players see their queues filled. Start including mechanics that potentially create a "fail state" for such groups, and you'll start seeing the "better" players rely on pre-mades to do their roulettes instead of grouping with potential first-timers, which undermines a key design concept. Keep the legitimate potential for "fail states" in higher-level content.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Yeah? Why not? Tanks have to deal with being told to pull more and use their mitigations or healers to do more DPS while keeping people alive, don't see why DPS should be getting a clear pass to use 3 buttons and be happy with it.

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If folks are telling you what to do, report them since it's against the ToS; don't make the problem even worse by perpetuating it.

If you were in my group, you could pull however many enemies you wanted as a tank, and I could care less if you do any DPS as a healer. Let's just play the game and have fun together.

Ehhh maybe some raids or trials can have an pseudo enrage just to test out if players know their rotations, though maybe instead of a raid wide wipe it's more of a punishment for the player.

A soft enrage sounds great. DPS need that kind of clear feedback considering the other rolls have it

The problem is, this would work just fine if there were enrages...it would make things fun and a challenge to overcome and feel great when you overcame the challenge. The issue is this playerbase is so coddled and white knighted that if you notice someone is truly just playing AWFULLY you CANNOT give ANY "unsolicited advice" in a TEAM GAME. I'm not talking like "nice guy behavior" like "you suck play better"...I'm talking like "Hey PLD, I noticed that you weren't really using Flight or Fight or Req, these do a lot of damage and help you contribute to the dps check, try to use them more often to help out"... NO you CANNOT say anything like this because it's "unsolicited advice". IN A TEAM GAME WHERE WE NEED TO HELP EACH OTHER OUT. So because of this, because I cannot help and there is no community spirit, people just silently leave. IN SITUATIONS WHERE IT CAN TOTALLY BE SAVED AND CLEARED.

This mentality of "any advice is a toxic assault on my honor" is strangling things from ever changing. In savage you are KICKED AND BLACKLISTED for being stubborn. People spread your name around if you are a routine trash can, because there are expectations to be met if you are truly awful. It's a small community and there are expectations and decorum.

In normal mode, there is no room for ANY advice or help even if it's like I said above, nothing remotely toxic just literally helping someone do more damage. THERE IS NO DPS METER IN THIS GAME. Dude, just literally give a DPS meter FOR JUST THE PERSON TO SEE, FOR THEMSELVES! No one else. No team dps meter. Just a dps meter for literally THAT player alone to see. They'll want to see why it isn't higher. They'll be curious how to make the number go up, and naturally, it will make them seek out to improve, if they have a functioning brain.

People naturally want to do good, and want to see numbers go up. Why on earth can there NOT be a PERSONAL dps meter? It won't be tracked or anything it will literally just be for that person alone, no fflogs, nothing. It BAFFLES my mind that STONE SKY SEA does NOT have a dps meter for it for that instance so people can see what their rotation looks like. Insane.

Unless this changes, we can't have dps checks in normal.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I don't see DPS checks or hard enrages happening in Normal content.

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I hate to break it to you, but Praetorium -- yes, Praetorium, of the MSQ roulette -- has a DPS check / hard enrage.

Eden's Verse: Refulgence also has a DPS check / hard enrage.

I've actually seen both. In Praetorium, the party will wipe if it doesn't kill the four adds in time. In Refulgence, it turns out two tanks and six dead party members can't quite break the ice in time.

SE is perfectly capable of adding a DPS check / hard enrage to normal content without making everyone scream, "tHiS iS tOo HaRd!?!?!2111!!"

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Yeah? Why not? Tanks have to deal with being told to pull more and use their mitigations or healers to do more DPS while keeping people alive, don't see why DPS should be getting a clear pass to use 3 buttons and be happy with it.

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Ok if we did add an enrage to normal raid fights, now we have an issue where we can potentially get a party combo where the fight is not possible. Then what happens? All the DPS get yelled at and kicked, unlike a tank being told to pull wall to wall or use mits. It's not the same thing, not doing wall to wall is the tanks choice and it just takes a bit longer to do a dungeon, not using mits? Well I guess if he tank dies you lose some time and the dps has to tank for a little bit, but better than not being able to clear it.

I never said it's ok for a DPS to exclusively press only 3 buttons, don't project yourself onto me. Your "why not?" Would put the blame only on DPS as a whole. and given that game will not tell you who's doing good damage at all, then anyone who points out that damage is low from X or Y Person then they are breaking TOS by using damage meters.This brings toxicity into the normal raid scene, and it's not ok. If I wanted to be on a timer to complete a fight I'd do Extremes or savage. If you actually thought about the wider scope of the idea you would know your wrong.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

Ok if we did add an enrage to normal raid fights, now we have an issue where we can potentially get a party combo where the fight is not possible. Then what happens?
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I never said it's ok for a DPS to exclusively press only 3 buttons

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For your first point, you either kick them and get someone who can handle it, or you disband and try with a new group. I've had it happen with terrible tanks and healers.

As for never saying it's ok for a DPS to press 3 buttons, sure you did, by arguing it's not okay for there to be any sort of challenge for a DPS player to overcome. Indeed, nobody's going to die because a DPS isn't doing their job, and therein lies the issue. People can autoattack their way through the majority of the content. Also you can totally tell when someone is doing very poor damage by their ranking in the team list. Barring deaths (which itself is an issue, if someone is dying constantly while the rest of the team is fine), if you're placed 8th we know something's amiss.

Asides you greatly overestimate the level of DPS checks we're calling for here. Press more than your combo, that's all I'm asking. Not asking for 80th or even 70th percentile here. 50%, a passing grade. Surely you can manage that. Basically asking for someone with a pulse who isn't watching youtube on the side.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

For your first point, you either kick them and get someone who can handle it, or you disband and try with a new group. I've had it happen with terrible tanks and healers.

As for never saying it's ok for a DPS to press 3 buttons, sure you did, by arguing it's not okay for there to be any sort of challenge for a DPS player to overcome. Indeed, nobody's going to die because a DPS isn't doing their job, and therein lies the issue. People can autoattack their way through the majority of the content.

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This why savage is there for if you want a harder challenge, not in normal. You really want to spend extra time waiting for a fill for a normal raid? Time to get off your high horse. I'd hate for the game to turn into the toxic hell scape that is wow dungeons.

And your clearly miss reading my post, I said I don't do 1/4 of my rotation as I usually would or should if I want to just chill. I mean I do it suboptimal, not that I don't do it at all.
EOD

The average player is awful, they'll struggle with an enrage timer. Didn't Titania have an enrage timer, she was already tough as is for the casual group. Even savage raiders are terrible, most expecting to be hard carried, so how would a casual player be able to clear Normal raids when savage raiders can barely clear EX? If you've done DT EX 2, you'll see people being dragged to the finish line of the fight because of how much babying they need. They provide barely any dps, parsing 0s, while just making everything harder for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

And your clearly miss reading my post, I said I don't do 1/4 of my rotation as I usually would or should if I want to just chill. I mean I do it suboptimal, not that I don't do it at all.

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I'm curious what you mean by this. The jobs are so on-rails there's not really an "optimally" or "suboptimally" for almost any of them. Like you refresh your healer dot at 6s instead of aiming for a 0s refresh? Are you just not hitting the GCD for some reason? If you know your job, you just press the buttons through muscle memory...

I'd have to try harder to make mistakes than do it correctly?

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

I'm curious what you mean by this. The jobs are so on-rails there's not really an "optimally" or "suboptimally" for almost any of them. Like you refresh your healer dot at 6s instead of aiming for a 0s refresh? Are you just not hitting the GCD for some reason? If you know your job, you just press the buttons through muscle memory...

I'd have to try harder to make mistakes than do it correctly?

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Single weaving and not double usually, on the rare Occasion I can triple weave when the stars aline. It still the "rotation" juts not as per the balance recommendations

Try to give the DPS role 0.01% more responsibility and there would be riots the next day.
But to be fair, it would happen on any game, not just FF.

When i run normal raids with my static, i've mentioned M4 has a sort of enrage (i don't actually fully know) because she spams the beam at the end and in pf it's pretty hard to heal, but we don't even see the second clone lazer grid in my static, i don't wanna be sitting doing normal raids for 9 mins though so

The whole point of the harder mode should be the enrage. How about just make healing less of a pain in normal modes instead? Having to wipe constantly because random pug healers don't know how to press their buttons is a bit frustrating. Why on gods green earth would I want to queue as a healer, and then have to be reliant on DPS being good? Most dps are bad at this game you do not want them to actually have to know what they're doing. It's so easy for me to get highest non tank aggro on pretty much any class I play in a random raid.

It's bad enough that normal raiders don't even know what feint or addle do. Which if they did, the healers would probably be having less of a headache trying to keep up. This is what happens when you force random groups of unskilled players to be reliant on other roles to do their own role's job. It is not fun gameplay. It leads to you hating your team mates. The best part of FF14 is that I don't hate my allies like I do in other games.

im tired of people who play dps because they dont want any responsibility. say something about people doing no dmg and in most cases it leads to an outrage.

i think normal raids (and also trials) need enrages. and no that doesnt mean its savage. enrages arent the same everywhere, they are specific to each fight. you can tune them to still give the players a lot of leeway.
people should know their rotation in a lvl 100 raid. not like people go in there with any job they cant play

M4 already has a soft one and the normal raids really don't need more than that. They're spicy enough to be interesting but still forgiveable enough that struggling groups can make it through for their weekly clears. They have a good balance now.

If we want to step up in the requirements a little bit, we go to Extreme and Savage.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

All I'll say is I love the soft enrage of Wicked Thunder, particularly because I main healer. I've always hated hard enrages. "Hurrr you hit 10 minutes GG." But I love soft enrages that are worked into the mechanics, story, and characters.'

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It'd be more like "After ineffectively bashing your face against the boss for 15 minutes, rocks fall and everyone dies."

They can add enrages and DPS checks to normal or not. For me personally, it doesn't make a difference.

So, let's say they add them. What then? What do you think the result would be?

Depending on how tight the DPS checks are and how quickly the enrage comes, it will mean a lot more wipes. A lot more rage quits. A lot more vote abandons. A lot more finger pointing and insults.

In other words, it won't accomplish anything other than waste more player time and create more negative environments.

Healers have always had this burden of picking up the dead while trying to avoid death in combat themselves. Sometimes we get lucky with a good group, sometimes we get a group that struggles.

If the group that you get matched to is bothering you that much, leave the group. You're not under any obligation to stick with a party. Try a vote abandon first if you want because there may be others that feel the same way as you.

The same advice goes to everyone else as well, regardless of role. Sometimes a group just isn't working out. There's nothing wrong with leaving. Perhaps you get the deserter penalty but it's going to be a rare person that doesn't have something else they can be doing in that 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

M4 already has a soft one and the normal raids really don't need more than that. They're spicy enough to be interesting but still forgiveable enough that struggling groups can make it through for their weekly clears. They have a good balance now.

If we want to step up in the requirements a little bit, we go to Extreme and Savage.

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That’s the problem with current encounter scaling

Going from normal to extreme isn’t a “little bit of a step up” it’s an absolute ocean for many players

Normal raids and alliance raids used to actually be that sort of bridging content but now that dungeons are sleeper mode raids and alliance raids have been pushed down to where dungeons used to be and the gap between normal and extreme continues to grow

There needs to be content between current normals and current extremes and normal raids are the best positioned to be that

Normal needs enrages, or we need a hard limit on combat ressing
it creates bad habits for players to not ever learn how to play the game by letting them get carried as is

Normal raids already have an enrage timer.
The instance clock!