Warrior Rework to Balance the job

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Originally Posted by aiqa

PLD has far lower healing and dps then WAR, so you can add that to your "problem" list. So then all tanks are problems, and WAR is the only tank working as intended. And WAR has about the same ogcd healing potential as WHM in solo or small group content, guess you can add WHM to the problem list too.

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????
A tank isn't a healer. What are you on about. WAR is comically unbalanced and deserves a orbital nerf. Vercure and hybrids are one thing, a job that straight up invalidates an entire role with impunity is another.

The whole reason we have boring jobs is balance yet WAR is anything but.

This active post shows how much people are divisive on the current state of WAR..

this job isn't a tank and not a healer this jobs is a "boss" role type of job

which destroys the current state of trinity in the game

I don't think my rework that I wrote is a good idea..

but I want to highlight how other tanks are effected from WAR buffs every batch

there is zero need for any division on warrior.
i am a damn tank main and i have had several healers complain i made them feel useless when i played warrior.
the amount of healing is based on amounts of enemies, Crit heal or no crit heal and wether bloodwhetting is in permanent cooldown or not.

IF IT IS you play blue healer period. do not @ me with, "warrior is ballanced" if you're one of those people you clearly never played a tank class other then warrior and got no idea what a tank is supposed to be

from what i read you've had put in too much healing and too much damage in your little imaginary rework.

the only thing warrior really needs is Halving the effects of bloodwhetting and equilibrium and it would be ALOT more ballanced already.
maybe remove the DHR from the guarenteed crit/dhr hits to lower its massive dps output a bit. it already is very selfsustainable, it doesn't need also damage on top of that.
the devs said themselves they want to make tanks more individualized yet warrior is Tank AND healer AND dps. thats not unique. thats just everything

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

And you'd be right, dungeons don't have enough damage in them. It doesn't disprove that WAR's healing in dungeons is excessive to a degree that is beyond reason and needs fixing. I may be looking in the wrong places but I don't see PLDs running content synced with three dps, nor GNB. Neither do we have jokes like "By the way, did you know PLD/GNB/DRK can solo <duty> synced?" yet the number of duties WAR can't solo synced is lower than the number it can - that alone is damning.

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You are indeed looking at the wrong places.
You can find many runs that includes 1 tank and 3 DPS, including DRK, thought it is the least popular composition due to obvious reasons.
You can find them in dungeons runs where you filter out healers, you will see plenty of PLD and WAR with some GNB.

WAR is obviously the comfort pick but PLD's Clemency is being slept on. Without Clemency, all those very hard content with only tanks/no healers wouldn't be possible.

i personaly call warrior a beginners tank class. and it is nothing beyond that.
easy mode
Boring class
braindead
and i'm sure i've had it called several other names that aren't too positive. i literaly level warrior to max only so i can leave it alone until i feel so damn tired or bored of tanking that i pick warrior out of sheer laziness.
i literaly have a macro apologizing to my at that moment healer for possibly making them feel useless :)
its simply the best class to step into the game if ur a beginner. and yes it feels nice to be semi immortal.
but after 1/2 dungeon runs it makes me feel bored of it. warrior is just braindead to the point i do not want to play it unless i am half asleep during duties.

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Originally Posted by Chrome_Aerial

i personaly call warrior a beginners tank class. and it is nothing beyond that.
easy mode
Boring class
braindead
and i'm sure i've had it called several other names that aren't too positive. i literaly level warrior to max only so i can leave it alone until i feel so damn tired or bored of tanking that i pick warrior out of sheer laziness.
i literaly have a macro apologizing to my at that moment healer for possibly making them feel useless :)
its simply the best class to step into the game if ur a beginner. and yes it feels nice to be semi immortal.
but after 1/2 dungeon runs it makes me feel bored of it. warrior is just braindead to the point i do not want to play it unless i am half asleep during duties.

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there is a difference between "Easy" job to get into
and "Best" job to play

Warrior is the best in all cases

thats true. wich makes it a very easy job to start the game with. but a very boring job to play the game with at higher level

It's insane the amount of ppl that come to forums to complain about issues with their classes while they themselves barely play the game.

Sorry but dungeons aren't end game content, normal trials aren't end game content neither are normal raids. Endgame content is Savage, EX, Criterion and Ultimates and all game balancing is made taking those in consideration.

For all the healers screaming "omg, I WISH I HAD SOMETHING TO HEAL" say that to all the tanks melting in P10S cuz healers were too busy glaring or DPSing to actually help with heals. There's a big reason why HH was a big wall for PF and it's not cuz mitigation or damage. The amount of parties who could never clear that raid without relying on tank LB 3 to survive HH just cause the healers couldn't press the "free heals" they had. And guess what, that's end game, warriors now have a better kit to help with that. We, the tanks, ASKED for it and SE listened and those who asked actually do content.

Do we have an issue with DRK and PLD toolkit? Yes, they should get a buff. That's the only thing that has to happen. Healers are fine, they were fine before and they will keep being fine cuz you know what? The healing changes since ARR were made taking FEEDBACK in consideration. You guys asked for healer to be easier and less complex. Yoshi P made clear multiple times that all job changes comes from community requests and no change will ever please everyone, but trying to pull others down just cuz you don't like your changes is just sad.

Savage didn't even came out and you all crying for healing issues... Get your head out of your holes and play the game for once before talking.

Oh and for the folks saying warrior is boring to play, that's totally fine.

I, for one, think dungeons are boring. You know what I do? I don't run roulettes or dungeons unless I have a good reason to. This game is gigantic and has a bunch of options in both class and content. No reason why I have to spill hate around and ruin things for people like I had no option.

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Originally Posted by Trianna

Sorry but dungeons aren't end game content, normal trials aren't end game content neither are normal raids. Endgame content is Savage, EX, Criterion and Ultimates and all game balancing is made taking those in consideration.

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Still nobody has told me why we can have end game OR normal content balanced but not both. Seems to me that's precisely why instances, ilvl and level syncs exist. There is nothing stopping the devs setting enemy counts and damage in normal content to be balanced and interesting while endgame content is equally balanced. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Trianna

For all the healers screaming "omg, I WISH I HAD SOMETHING TO HEAL" say that to all the tanks melting in P10S cuz healers were too busy glaring or DPSing to actually help with heals. ... And guess what, that's end game, warriors now have a better kit to help with that. We, the tanks, ASKED for it and SE listened and those who asked actually do content.

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I'm glad WAR has a good savage kit, seems to me though a common theme in savage and ultimate content is very low target counts and that were WAR abilities reduced to healing on 1 to 3 enemies instead of a 10 or more it would have zero effect on savage content while going miles toward balancing the job in the rest of the game. Not everyone who plays healer is of the savage or ultimate standards and just as you have no interest in normal content, some of us have no interest in playing savage so yes, I wish my job wasn't made obsolete in the content the apparent majority of players play.

I don't begrudge you your good savage balance, in fact I advocate for it, why should it come at the expense of the rest of the game?

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Originally Posted by Trianna

Healers are fine, they were fine before and they will keep being fine cuz you know what? The healing changes since ARR were made taking FEEDBACK in consideration. You guys asked for healer to be easier and less complex. Yoshi P made clear multiple times that all job changes comes from community requests and no change will ever please everyone

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I imagine a decent number of healers are happy with their kits and jobs for the most part - I don't see entire sections of the forum calling for cleric stance back for example - now we are asking to have tanks, healers and 70% of the game balanced in such a way that we actually get to use those kits instead of being a weaker DPS filling a mandatory slot in party make-ups. I guess the alternative is to ask for the removal of the healer requirement for duties, then nobody has to fill the role of "bad DPS job".

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Originally Posted by Trianna

Savage didn't even came out and you all crying for healing issues... Get your head out of your holes and play the game for once before talking.

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If only savage and up is "the game" then I may never "play the game", otherwise, I have three years of playing the game under my belt I think I've seen enough to comment.

i highly agree on alice in the regard that BOTH high end content AND regular content has to be ballanced. NOT everyone plays savages and ultimate. GOOD FOR YOU IF YOU DO. but most people don't and there is no reason why like 70% of the games playerbase shud get screwed over to appease the 30%.

your view on how warrior is "fine" is heavily flawed therefor. your view on warrior is "fine" may be true for extremes or above. but nothing else. (wich mind you is still the majority of the game where warrior is absolutely broken)

and i'll quote: "Get your head out of your holes and play the game for once before talking." as you appearently don't really play much of the majority of the existing content other then high end duties yet have a strong opinion on how a class you play (and most likely main) is fine as is while it is really not.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Still nobody has told me why we can have end game OR normal content balanced but not both. Seems to me that's precisely why instances, ilvl and level syncs exist. There is nothing stopping the devs setting enemy counts and damage in normal content to be balanced and interesting while endgame content is equally balanced. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

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It's a reason, I suppose, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Designing content to be steamrolled is exactly what brought us to the point where we have a dozen or more threads above difficulty with dozens of people insulting eachother. It's also the reason why the divide between casual players and savage raiders is so significant with midcore unserved. It should be entirely possible to maintain a difficulty curve and the content be balanced.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

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Yes, actually, it makes perfect sense that you either adjust something because it's too strong in the tutorial or you adjust the tutorial because it's not teaching properly as a result of that thing being too powerful. Preferably you adjust both in smaller degrees to reach the same balance point which is what I want to see.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

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Which is why I'm not suggesting removing bloodwhetting or anything else from the WAR kit, simply adjusting it in a way that maintains it's savage/ultimate power without breaking the rest of the game for everyone who plays that. In a holy trinity setup that is actively enforced by the game's primary group finding apparatus (the Duty Finder) all three points of it should be properly enforced lest your "tutorial" is not doing it's job. Teaching healers to do dps at the expense of their intended primary role (a role demanded in savage/ultimate) by having WAR do their job for them is doing nobody any favours, healers, tanks and dps alike - especially in savage content where people then have to completely relearn their jobs.

Cknovel. Homie your 100% correct.

Story mode teaches behaviour you take into hard mode when you make the change. Warrior being an immortal god in story mode then transforming into someone who relies on healers in hard content is bad game design.
The trinity should be present in all stages of the game especially level fucking 90-100 this is hundreds of hours into the game, every job should be reliant on each others role by this point in the game.

I think you'd need to re-examine what it is the Warrior is supposed to represent in the Tank Role.

Right now it's the self-sustaining healer tank that does good damage, and if you think that doesn't fit then I would agree with you thus it should be reworked, not because the players are unhappy with it but it doesn't fit the design of what he job was supposed to be.

I would challenge the current Warrior should be a High Damage reduction tank.
That is to say, they don't tank damage as opposed to just healing through everything while dishing out damage.

How would I approach this?

Reworking all their job-specific damage mitigations to be damage reduction mitigations.

Then what would the gimmick be that sets them apart?

Each time a job-specific mitigation is used, it resets the duration of a pre-existing one, while stacking on top of the new one, this chain can continue to stack and reset until you eventually get all mitigations going, then it becomes a mini-game of checks and balances trying to manage them all, this would give the expert players the challenge and fast fingers challenge they seem to want, while allowing the casuals access to the job but still being able to use it in more leisurely content without feeling pressured to be as high level players would feel to hit everything and keep the aforementioned mini-game going.

What would be the rewards?
As I mentioned, imagine hitting "Thrill of Battle" and getting a 10% damage reduction, for 10 seconds, and on the 9th second you hit, "Vengence" and get an additional 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds and Thrill of Battle resets to its 10 second duration, this continues with every mitigation you have, you wait until its nearly out then hit the next in your respective chain and gain a stackable 10% damage mitigation and reset the duration of all pre-existing buffs lets say you timed it right so you activate all 7 or is It 8 mitigations that would be like a 70 to 80% damage reduction, but lets say you pop Rampart now it stacks up to 100%, you have the potential to have 100% damage immunity, so long as you play the mini game right, and while you are doing it the reset counter on all previous mitigations is slowly resetting.

This sounds like a much more interesting version of warrior than what we currently have, and allows for a certain type of player to achieve a higher level of skill vs reward style of game play.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

It's a reason, I suppose, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Designing content to be steamrolled is exactly what brought us to the point where we have a dozen or more threads above difficulty with dozens of people insulting eachother. It's also the reason why the divide between casual players and savage raiders is so significant with midcore unserved. It should be entirely possible to maintain a difficulty curve and the content be balanced.

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Removing bloodwhetting was an extreme example to show that it wouldn't fix the actual issue. The point is that even without Bloodwhetting, even if it never existed, people would complain.
If you nerf it, people will complain regardless, because the problem are exactly the dungeons very low damage.

I strongly believe it would be better to have dungeons doing more party wide damage so that both tank and healer can use and learn about their tools.
Even without Bloodwhetting, dungeons and normal mode do a terrible jobs at teaching the game. In fact, nothing teaches you about the game, your best bet are guides...

If you nerf Bloodwhetting, you still suffers the mentionned problems:
-Dungeon damages remains underbalanced and good tanks will still take minimal damage, people's complaints will move from Warrior to Paladin.
-Holy trinity responsibility will still be extremely low, healer won't make use of their full use of their healing kit and will DPS more than heal.
-Dungeons won't fill their role as "tutorial" and won't teach healers or tanks anything.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If you nerf Bloodwhetting, you still suffers the mentionned problems:
-Dungeon damages remains underbalanced and good tanks will still take minimal damage, people's complaints will move from Warrior to Paladin.
-Holy trinity responsibility will still be extremely low, healer won't make use of their full use of their healing kit and will DPS more than heal.
-Dungeons won't fill their role as "tutorial" and won't teach healers or tanks anything.

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All of which brings me back to this:

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Yes, actually, it makes perfect sense that you either adjust something because it's too strong in the tutorial or you adjust the tutorial because it's not teaching properly as a result of that thing being too powerful. Preferably you adjust both in smaller degrees to reach the same balance point which is what I want to see.

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So far as I can tell, reducing the amount of targets WAR can heal off per attack goes a long way to balancing it in dungeons without changing high end balance in any meaningful way, then you increase sustained NPC damage in lower end content to be balanced with existing mits and healing, further, to maintain that balance, I would suggest reducing the ilvl range on duties to prevent excessive power from stats breaking that balance. If, after that, adjustments need to be made to PLD, to GNB, to DRK, so be it, there's nothing stopping them from re-tuning savage and ultimate for some potency adjustments that balance the foundational and intended educational experience to actually educate and build foundations.

Is it a pain point in the short term? Yes, it'll frustrate everyone, but in the long term it's far better for the health of the game and the continued retention of players. No MMO can live purely on player turnover.

that won't help, even on single target a war can get up to near full if they know what they are doing. the more targets just make it easier.
if War is going to be the self healing tank, then it's going to be like this no matter what.

but also ask why. Most healers I encounter can't handle drk in dungeons. i'm god awful as a healer and I can still comfortably heal a drk in a dungeon. so we just go war to get it over with. Also war provides newer and less skilled tanks a safer way to do dungeons.

People already have tank anxiety, changing the safe/easy tank will only add further stress to new tanks.

Personally, I only take drk or war into expertise depending on how I feel.
Good mood = drk
Bad mode and don't wanna have to deal the chance a healer can't keep up with a drk = war.

and finally changing a job to fit low-level content, to add challenge people who don't wanna do harder content, seems pointless, it's not like war is going to savage and slapping the boss around on the regular,

It seems like all this talk about healers leads to non tank players wanting to change tank. to suit them. instead of offering ideas on how EXACTLY to "fix" healers.
Why idk, I feel like a healer is fine but I don't play it too often so my thoughts on healer dont matter.

#TANKBROTHERHOOD4LIFE

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

So far as I can tell, reducing the amount of targets WAR can heal off per attack goes a long way to balancing it in dungeons without changing high end balance in any meaningful way, then you increase sustained NPC damage in lower end content to be balanced with existing mits and healing, further, to maintain that balance, I would suggest reducing the ilvl range on duties to prevent excessive power from stats breaking that balance. If, after that, adjustments need to be made to PLD, to GNB, to DRK, so be it, there's nothing stopping them from re-tuning savage and ultimate for some potency adjustments that balance the foundational and intended educational experience to actually educate and build foundations.

Is it a pain point in the short term? Yes, it'll frustrate everyone, but in the long term it's far better for the health of the game and the continued retention of players. No MMO can live purely on player turnover.

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Good news, we already have content where Bloodwhetting used to be weaker and damages taken were bigger. Shadowbringers dungeons started to hit harder.
This resulted in tanks being encouraged to use Arm's Length. So this resulted in an increase of standard and player skill but still on the wrong plan - Single target healing and tank mitigation.

What I believe dungeons needs to focus are the party wide healing and mitigations. Healer primary role is to heal the party, yet the amount of damage DPS and healers takes is minimal!
That's my point, even if you nerf Bloodwhetting and all tanks self healing, the "trinity" is meaningless as long as DPS and healers takes minimal damage.

That tutorial doesn't work as a tutorial.

Honestly more party wide damage from dungeon pulls could be neat, have some be interruptable by tanks and ranged, stuff like that. Trashpull to introduce future dungeon boss mechanics are nice

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

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WAR has by far the highest sutain of all tanks in any content, dungeons, raids, trials, deep dungeons, etc. The most suggested change to reign in WAR selfhealing wouldn't even affect bossfights much (remove target scaling on bloodwhetting). And lowering its selfhealing to the level of other tanks wouldn't destroy the job.

There is no way to fix dungeons to fix tank balance, WAR in its current form will always be a problems. WAR has better sustain in the only part of dungeons that can be optional (large mob pulls) than a DRK and WHM combined. If dungeons are a challenge to WAR+healer, no other tank would be able to survive. And it's also completely unreasonable a WAR gets levels of ogcd healing on large mob pulls, multiples of what a healer jobs can maintain.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Honestly more party wide damage from dungeon pulls could be neat, have some be interruptable by tanks and ranged, stuff like that. Trashpull to introduce future dungeon boss mechanics are nice

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It's kind of happened in the two expert dungeons. Both have had healing checks that damage the entire party, but this has been only one pack in both dungeons. Really trash pulls need to be more engaging whether it includes environmental obstacles or aoe damage, if dungeons are going to forever be straight lines then make the trash packs far more engaging.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

WAR has by far the highest sutain of all tanks in any content, dungeons, raids, trials, deep dungeons, etc. The most suggested change to reign in WAR selfhealing wouldn't even affect bossfights much (remove target scaling on bloodwhetting). And lowering its selfhealing to the level of other tanks wouldn't destroy the job.

There is no way to fix dungeons to fix tank balance, WAR in its current form will always be a problems. WAR has better sustain in the only part of dungeons that can be optional (large mob pulls) than a DRK and WHM combined. If dungeons are a challenge to WAR+healer, no other tank would be able to survive. And it's also completely unreasonable a WAR gets levels of ogcd healing on large mob pulls, multiples of what a healer jobs can maintain.

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Except in raids, deep dungeons, trials, WAR sustain doesn't comes from Bloodwhetting.
WAR has better sustain but it comes at the hefty price of less mitigation. Warrior only has 3 personal while other tanks have 4. Bloodwhetting also reduces by 10%*2 instead of the classic 15%*2.
Finally, WAR healing on the chart isn't representative of the actual strength, WAR overheals a lot, mostly from Shake it off.

If more damage are inflicted on party members, you hit Healers primary role that tanks can't cover.

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Originally Posted by Japaneseschoolgirl

that won't help, even on single target a war can get up to near full if they know what they are doing. the more targets just make it easier.
if War is going to be the self healing tank, then it's going to be like this no matter what.

but also ask why. Most healers I encounter can't handle drk in dungeons. i'm god awful as a healer and I can still comfortably heal a drk in a dungeon. so we just go war to get it over with. Also war provides newer and less skilled tanks a safer way to do dungeons.

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Honestly if a healer can't keep a DRK alive then one or both players is doing it wrong. DRK is easy to keep up, even as the weakest tank, from a healer point of view I consider it to be the best balanced in the mit/heal department. On the subject of WAR being a heal tank: I don't have an inherent problem with a tank that mitigates through healing, it's actually a cool concept that I replicated in a different MMO using the healer class, the problem is that WARs heals are not balanced as mitigation in normal content, it just completely replaces the healer role. This is a clear failure of the balance team.

I've said it before, I'll reiterate here: I'm not out to destroy WAR, I'm not seeking to break savage, I simply want to curb WAR's excesses in normal content in a way that has minimal impact on everything else and bring the content up to meet the current power level.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Good news, we already have content where Bloodwhetting used to be weaker and damages taken were bigger. Shadowbringers dungeons started to hit harder.
This resulted in tanks being encouraged to use Arm's Length. So this resulted in an increase of standard and player skill but still on the wrong plan - Single target healing and tank mitigation.

What I believe dungeons needs to focus are the party wide healing and mitigations. Healer primary role is to heal the party, yet the amount of damage DPS and healers takes is minimal!
That's my point, even if you nerf Bloodwhetting and all tanks self healing, the "trinity" is meaningless as long as DPS and healers takes minimal damage.

That tutorial doesn't work as a tutorial.

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I can support increasing party damage, I was saying to a friend the other day that NPCs have too low sustained damage output in both single and multi-target manners, obviously in boss fights and trials one can simply throw out more raidwides but how do we go about it for pulls? I know everyone hates enemies that ignore aggro to target at random - I think with good reason, it defeats the whole point of the tank.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

I can support increasing party damage, I was saying to a friend the other day that NPCs have too low sustained damage output in both single and multi-target manners, obviously in boss fights and trials one can simply throw out more raidwides but how do we go about it for pulls? I know everyone hates enemies that ignore aggro to target at random - I think with good reason, it defeats the whole point of the tank.

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One of the dungeons has exactly two ennemies dealing party wide damage. Thought they're super weak, we could have ennemies doing massive raidiwide, share on the healer...
We have that in criterion, adds that targets party member other than the tank.

Apply the same thing to normal dungeons, you could even have a DPS that get a targeted AoE that inflicts a curable debuff/physical resist down that DPS must avoid to apply on tanks.
There's even the cubes in one of the EX dungeons that deals aoe damage.

I believe this is a great path that would make healers more important in dungeons.

Ah yes, those two. At low ilvl and unexpected those two were quite painful. I suppose a fix would be percentage based damage and I could absolutely go for dps mechanics, dps jobs are a bit underserved in dungeons, something more than just doing one's rotation and dodging AoEs would make the jobs more interesting.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Except in raids, deep dungeons, trials, WAR sustain doesn't comes from Bloodwhetting.
WAR has better sustain but it comes at the hefty price of less mitigation. Warrior only has 3 personal while other tanks have 4. Bloodwhetting also reduces by 10%*2 instead of the classic 15%*2.
Finally, WAR healing on the chart isn't representative of the actual strength, WAR overheals a lot, mostly from Shake it off.

If more damage are inflicted on party members, you hit Healers primary role that tanks can't cover.

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FFlogs healing includes mitigation, and doesn't include overhealing. So you only need 1 metric, and that metric is pretty obvious https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...nks&metric=hps
But you made a good point, Shake it Off is far to strong too.

There is nothing to say here that wasn't already said, so I'll just sign under everyone else who suggested to cap BW/Raw Intuition healing to 1 heal per GCD. It's such an obvious fix that it's honestly quite baffling it wasn't implemented through the entirety of Endwalker.

I really hope the devs don't listen to this stuff. Do people really want trash mobs to hit harder in a dungeon? Cause WAR has always been fine on bosses. They havent made trash interesting in casual content in any expansion, so what will this "nerf" accomplish? Just taking fun away from WAR players who like to feel invincible on the weakest enemies in the game.

Do people realise that if you nerf WAR sustain, you can just scrap the job at this point?

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

Do people really want trash mobs to hit harder in a dungeon? Cause WAR has always been fine on bosses. They havent made trash interesting in casual content in any expansion, so what will this "nerf" accomplish?

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Yes, some of us do want trash mobs to hit harder, if we didn't do things because they were unprecedented we'd never have got out of caves.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

Just taking fun away from WAR players who like to feel invincible on the weakest enemies in the game.

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If people need to be immortal to have fun then I feel sorry for them, but to flip your logic on it's head - just taking fun away from healers who like to use their kits in the vast majority of content.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Do people realise that if you nerf WAR sustain, you can just scrap the job at this point?

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If WAR has nothing but it's immortality then it's terribly designed. I don't believe that any job being immortal by it's own power is healthy for any MMO, much less one with a holy trinity, in that context WAR is literally game breaking. At the risk of repeating myself yet again, WAR being a heal tank is okay, using heals as mitigation is cool replacing an entire point of the holy trinity in multiple categories of content not okay or balanced and should be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Yes, some of us do want trash mobs to hit harder, if we didn't do things because they were unprecedented we'd never have got out of caves.



If people need to be immortal to have fun then I feel sorry for them, but to flip your logic on it's head - just taking fun away from healers who like to use their kits in the vast majority of content.



If WAR has nothing but it's immortality then it's terribly designed. I don't believe that any job being immortal by it's own power is healthy for any MMO, much less one with a holy trinity, in that context WAR is literally game breaking. At the risk of repeating myself yet again, WAR being a heal tank is okay, using heals as mitigation is cool replacing an entire point of the holy trinity in multiple categories of content not okay or balanced and should be fixed.

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I'll get behind your sentiment of "balance" when trash mobs stop becoming hp sponges.

Otherwise I think this complaint is barking up the wrong tree.

Ideally trash wouldn't take long to kill but adversely wouldn't also take long to kill you, no one likes sponges, tanks and DPS don't like mobs that never die while healers don't like party members that never die. Both need to be addressed.

That's a separate issue, it is an issue, especially when dps players are bad at their jobs. If trash mobs did more damage and actually had interesting engagement then there would be no justification for their sponginess. This should not be a chicken or egg situation.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Ideally trash wouldn't take long to kill but adversely wouldn't also take long to kill you, no one likes sponges, tanks and DPS don't like mobs that never die while healers don't like party members that never die. Both need to be addressed.

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^Exactly this.^

The chicken needs to be addressed with the egg. FFXIV has a bad habit of taking away things that are perceived to be problems while giving nothing to compensate, which makes the problem worse overall. It's the state we see time and time again with stuff like Jobs, relic weapons, and so much content in the game.

If we start balancing trash and make them mechanically interesting, we can talk about how jobs stack up and are balanced vs trash.

So we should be in agreement that, as I put forward two pages ago, the jobs (the chicken) and content (the egg) need rebalancing to involve all members of the party in the ways they are meant to be involved. CKNovel has come around on the latter part with a reasonable suggestion that could be carried forward, I don't think it fixes either problem on it's own and we still don't see eye to eye on tank/healer balance but any step towards a solution is better than none.

Agreed. Honestly, I do hope for the game to be as engaging to everyone as possible. I think healers need more things to do than just heal and press damage buttons — they'd have so much value if there were mechanics that could not be handled by tanks or dps, and esuna/cleansing is horribly underutilized. I would probably start there, on "how can we inflict status effects on party members that no one but healers can deal with?" Then they could add those things to trash mobs to keep everyone engaged.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

I'll get behind your sentiment of "balance" when trash mobs stop becoming hp sponges.

Otherwise I think this complaint is barking up the wrong tree.

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Thrash mobs already die very fast when people are at the max item level for the content.