Feedback: Alexandria Dungeon needs adjustments

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Originally Posted by Mlem

Yeah and maybe half knockback distances to help out around Maulhead. There doesn't need to be bespoke buffs for each and every dungeon. Just a massive generalist buff that's copy and pasted into each Duty Support. The only objective is so that literally everyone can clear the MSQ every step of the way without frustration and clear the final quest and start crafting, exploring, flying around, doing whatever they can then handle. Simple and easy.

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So basically making the Echo available for MSQ Dungeons Duty Support after like X amount of wipes

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

So basically making the Echo available for MSQ Dungeons Duty Support after like X amount of wipes

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I wouldn't even lock it behind some number of wipes. I wouldn't lock Easy Mode for solo duties behind a failure either. The MSQ's job is to tell a story and if someone doesn't want any stress while they follow a story, I don't see anything wrong with that.

I can generally clear a solo duty first try (unless Scions venn diagram me) because I am vaguely passable at video games but if I could slap on Easy Mode immediately, I still would every single time during an MSQ run because it just isn't ever going to be that interesting. I just do not care. Having to push buttons harder and faster is not enhancing my experience at that point. I don't do that for dungeons because they are rarely dull or terribly frustrating to me, but if I'm wiping lots in the first run, I don't enjoy it, I'm just putting up with it impatiently because I'm currently following a story and I just want to get on with things. As soon as the story's done, I can double back to expert roulette, Alexandria pops, my healers are employed and wiping is fun again. There is a reason gaming as a whole was allergic to difficulty for a time, because games had started trying to tell big cinematic stories but game overs directly work against that. That particular taboo's been broken but it's only well done in carefully thought out ways and leans on the target audience.

As a very extreme example, Elden Ring, which is a hard game, also has a story, but because of the way the story is told in drips and drops through the environment and flavour text, you're rarely at a point where you just need that next chapter told and dying 10 times to some random guy in a cave becomes more of a hassle than a gaming experience. An FF MSQ is basically at that point all the time. When was the last time you got an outright game over screen while doing the main storyline in a Final Fantasy game? Probably never. At least I never did, even as a very young child, and it was great because I could focus on the story, talk to people, read the things, do the things that need doing, more story, all the way to the end without interruption.

FFXIV is in a special position where the target audience is everyone who currently owns the game and has a sub, which is, evidently, the full breadth of almost everyone from hardcore to super clicking the default hotbar with a mouse I'm looking for another bookshelf to lift as a ceiling piece casual. So the stress tolerance to the MSQ, which many or all low stress activities are generally locked behind each patch, is especially demanding, and attempting to gatekeep that is extra detrimental. In time, there's going to have to be a discussion on how much dev resource is put into true casual combat content in the EW vein because the gap between Savage and Dungeons has been closed at the expense of opening the gap between regular mobs wandering around the map and dungeons.

But for now, just slap down the Easy Mode or the Super Echo, whatever you want to call it and unblock the expansion that people have paid for.

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Originally Posted by Mlem

But for now, just slap down the Easy Mode or the Super Echo, whatever you want to call it and unblock the expansion that people have paid for.

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Who is currently "blocked" by instance difficulty? I've not met anyone who couldn't complete a duty and was unable to progress the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Mlem

But for now, just slap down the Easy Mode or the Super Echo, whatever you want to call it and unblock the expansion that people have paid for.

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I sometimes wonder if some of the people who log into FFXIV like playing it as a game at all.

I had no idea people are even wiping this much on the dungeon. Granted I main broken asf Scholar but it's literally just reading what could be unavoidable versus avoidable damage from the boss abilities.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I sometimes wonder if some of the people who log into FFXIV like playing it as a game at all.

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I met people in discord who didn't even finish the MSQ of ShB after a year of playing because all they do is standing around in Limsa

I liked the idea mentioned elswhere of just slapping maybe 5 "lives" on people in an easy version of duty support, so you don't have to redo a fight from scratch if you died once. We already had this in the final Endwalker solo duty, I don't see why one can't just add this to Duty Support as well.

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Originally Posted by Minali

I liked the idea elswhere of just slapping maybe 5 "lives" on people in an easy version of duty support, so you don't have to redo a fight from scratch if you died once. We already had this in the final Endwalker solo duty, I don't see why one can't just add this to Duty Support as well.

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I never use trust or dudy support, but doesnt the healer rezz you if you die? i think that was the case on Hydaelyn

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I never use trust or dudy support, but doesnt the healer rezz you if you die? i think that was the case on Hydaelyn

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I don't remember how it was in that specific trial, but when you die in a Duty Support/Trust run, it counts as a wipe and you have to reset from wherever the last checkpoint was. The NPCs can raise each other but not you. No clue why not, maybe some technical thing.

If you're relying on your reaction speed to do the mechanics on the first boss in Alexandria, you're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I never use trust or dudy support, but doesnt the healer rezz you if you die? i think that was the case on Hydaelyn

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Hydaelyn trial gave you one stack of a buff that caused you to revive if you were to die - similar to the buff you've got in last Zenos solo duty. I believe - but am not 100% sure, don't remember exactly - that duty support trials in Dawntrail do something similar. All regular duty support/trusts content (dungeons) result in a wipe if you die at any point.

isnt there a stupid healer strike going on complaining tanks can solo a dungeon ? oh now its too hard so tell me what is it that you toxic casuals want exactly ? it is really getting ridiculous rework the dungeon for you ? how about you rework your mentality and actually respect the mechanics if you are not willing to do that probably go play something else no one cares about the vocal minority of casuals anymore and i hope they make the upcoming dungeons and raids even harder :)

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Originally Posted by HereticJay

isnt there a stupid healer strike going on complaining tanks can solo a dungeon ? oh now its too hard so tell me what is it that you toxic casuals want exactly ? it is really getting ridiculous rework the dungeon for you ? how about you rework your mentality and actually respect the mechanics if you are not willing to do that probably go play something else no one cares about the vocal minority of casuals anymore and i hope they make the upcoming dungeons and raids even harder :)

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This has nothing to do with the healer strike

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Originally Posted by HereticJay

isnt there a stupid healer strike going on complaining tanks can solo a dungeon ? oh now its too hard so tell me what is it that you toxic casuals want exactly ? it is really getting ridiculous rework the dungeon for you ? how about you rework your mentality and actually respect the mechanics if you are not willing to do that probably go play something else no one cares about the vocal minority of casuals anymore and i hope they make the upcoming dungeons and raids even harder :)

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Different people want different things. Healer strikers are tired of healing being nothing but spamming broil and occasionally using oGCDs because the amount of damage going out was trivial.

The problem isn't even necessarily that tanks can do their role. It's that there's so little for healers to do to begin with that even a tank can do it.

As you pointed out, they're the polar opposite of the people complaining about content being too hard.

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Alexandria, making to the first boss. We died, continuously, over and over and over again. After about 20 different tries and dying each time, we threw in the towel.

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20 attempts in first boss of Alexandria and you posting this comedy:

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I know how provoke works and the issue with tanks vs enmity has already been brought up by SE.
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6321a515d36909

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Decent troll post I guess. But in case it isn't this post by SE has nothing to do with tank's doing single target threat. Which is why they only buffed enmity on AoE combos and some gap closers that don't do any damage (gap closer change was so mobs become active instantly from not being in combat to being in combat when you use the ability). The only issue with tank threat has been on trash packs. And it was still doable even before the changes.

I want to believe this is a troll because there's no way you guys get to level 100 and not know how to provoke a boss after dying. This is just ridiculous.

The boss in question isn't even as chaotic and movement heavy as last boss of Zot.

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Originally Posted by HereticJay

isnt there a stupid healer strike going on complaining tanks can solo a dungeon ? oh now its too hard so tell me what is it that you toxic casuals want exactly ? it is really getting ridiculous rework the dungeon for you ? how about you rework your mentality and actually respect the mechanics if you are not willing to do that probably go play something else no one cares about the vocal minority of casuals anymore and i hope they make the upcoming dungeons and raids even harder :)

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There would be no need for for Extreme or Savage if you just made dungeons more difficult.

Like it or not Casuals are not a minority, they are a sizable portion of this community. We don't have many options for difficult content yet as the expansion is fresh, as someone who does play Extreme and Savage I absolutely do not hold other players to the same standard as myself.

I do expect content in the vein of MSQ to be casual and chill even at level 100, I don't want to push players away from the story but all I'm seeing when feedback and criticism towards MSQ difficulty of Dawntrail comes up is a nasty rude sect of players telling the Devs to ignore certain feedback, insulting other players... it needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

There would be no need for for Extreme or Savage if you just made dungeons more difficult.

Like it or not Casuals are not a minority, they are a sizable portion of this community. We don't have many options for difficult content yet as the expansion is fresh, as someone who does play Extreme and Savage I absolutely do not hold other players to the same standard as myself.

I do expect content in the vein of MSQ to be casual and chill even at level 100, I don't want to push players away from the story but all I'm seeing when feedback and criticism towards MSQ difficulty of Dawntrail comes up is a nasty rude sect of players telling the Devs to ignore certain feedback, insulting other players... it needs to stop.

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100% this.

I like the new mechanics, but the past few months, when I visit this forum, I see toxic replies, players not posting arguments, but attacks.

Please people lets be the friendly and respectfull community that we are known for.

Not making a statement either way but I think people need to let go of the idea that the 14 community is happy go lucky

It isn’t, it’s just as toxic as any other community it’s just we can’t say it in game, so instead we snark each other on other listening posts or if you are Japanese you get doxxed on 2chan

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

I do expect content in the vein of MSQ to be casual and chill even at level 100

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I don't, the game give you more tools as you progress and therefore should become harder. You don't even need to scale it up to anything near savage tier of difficulty. The MSQ is already almost turned into a visual novel and the few gameplay part left should be more entertaining than pressing 1-2-3.

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Originally Posted by Riguel

Ah yes, you got me. Clearly I'm a troll for just giving my own personal feedback and frustrations, but not the rude people telling me to "get good" "learn your job" "Do better" "master the bare minimal mechanics" or the people who came to brag they completed without any trouble, yeah ok bud.

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I'm sorry, I've been reading this thread and I find it kinda hilarious that you're calling others rude for trying to help you do the bare minimum. It's not like this is some insanely difficult piece of endgame content. It's a normal dungeon. With normal dungeon level mechanics. The only difference between this and endwalker dungeons is that there are a few more aoes in sequence. The game quite literally shows you the patterns for every. Single. Aoe. Before any of them go off. They don't even disappear before the aoes go off, you get to cheat sheet the entire way through the mechanic. And regarding why other people are upset with you, it is because square tends to listen to the lowest common denominator and it has been what's been turning this game into a visual novel for the last 7 years. So yes, you are allowed to give your feedback, and we are allowed to give more feedback that we do not want CBU3 to lobotomize the content.
I'm sorry you got filtered by a normal dungeon boss.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Who is currently "blocked" by instance difficulty? I've not met anyone who couldn't complete a duty and was unable to progress the MSQ.

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I met someone once who couldn't get past the one instance with Estenien in Garlimald, and a friend of mine took several attempts at the Lamat one before succeeding. Some people have disabilities that make the solo duties hard to complete, but that's a topic for another thread.

For the op, the boss you're talking about is simply a lesson in learning what aoes are okay to stand in before it goes off and what order they go off in, and what the hitbox is when the crosses go off.
The first time I ran this (two friends and a rando) we wiped the first time. The good ol' "learning by dying" method of learning works well here.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

You have to admit the first boss in Alexandria is disproportionally hard compared to every other boss in every other dungeon. Given they can read data on wipes I seriously doubt it's gonna remain in its current state no matter what anyone says for or against it.

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I actually can't admit this. It requires some observation. You can't just throw yourself at it and expect to win, which is completely fine. The moment you understand that you prioritize dodging +s and Os first and then dodging the AOE, coupled with the knowledge that it is safe to move once the orange goes away, there's nothing hard about that fight at all. I'd argue that the first boss of Origenics is harder when he's slapping those poison drums just due to how fast the AOEs spawn and go off. Requires more reaction. The bosses in Alexandria just require you to pay attention to the order that things are happening in and remember that.

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Originally Posted by Riguel

This is my own personal feedback as someone who has been healing since 1.0 as a white mage. I've noticed the big ramp up in dungeon difficulty and mechanics, some of them have been enjoyable, others not so much( lvl 95 final boss I'm looking at you). But I've been able to work with my FC and learn the mechanics and progress the story and dungeon. However on the final dungeon, Alexandria, making to the first boss. We died, continuously, over and over and over again. After about 20 different tries and dying each time, we threw in the towel. I don't mind learning mechanics and trying to get better but this is beyond my abilities as a healer. We understand the mechanics of it however there is not enough time to get between locations. Not everyone's reaction time is as quick others nor can you expect them to be. There is not enough pause for a healer to even mitigate the errors in the party. Upon dying, I lose all my lily stacks which gives me only tetragrammaton and benediction for instant heals in case of emergencies during these constant runs to the circles and avoiding the crosses and the bosses big conal attack. I can't try to save people with heals unless my lily's are up during these runs. I can't even use swift case because I have to save it in case someone falls which was happening to our tank because even having a couple stacks, fully healed and a tank mitigation popped, it was one shotting him. This was our tank, geared up to what he could get at the level and stacked with materia. There is not enough down time between all that happening to even heal the party to survive a hit with stack markers coming right afterwards. As a casual player, I don't do much raiding, I have done some in the past but not something I've personally enjoyed doing but this gets to the point its alienating the casual audience, people with disabilities, slow reaction times, etc from even progressing. Maybe they need to bring back Hard mode dungeons and stick this in there and readjust the MSQ's dungeons so this isn't so bad. Something is off with this dungeon and it needs reworked. Eventually we did make it through the dungeon after trying it another day and a few tries but still, it needs adjusting.

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It honestly is the EASIEST of the 3 . Why are you battling people trying to help you. You keep saying you have to agree first boss is no , We dont its is so easy. + meant there will be a + shaped aoe from that location just get out of it close to the 0. 0 means go inside that. I know there is breath attacks while that is going on just ignore them if you get hit by them you WILL be fine. The ones you cant get hit by are the + and o attacks. That is it there is nothing else to that boss! stop rejecting help by doing that you are just saying to the playerbase you do not want to beat it , you just want to complain about it and be right. if you do it with trusts they even move to the safe locations just follow them . It cant be more easy you dont have to even look at the screen just follow a trust .

Alexandria is substantially easier than the dungeon that immediately preceeded it, I've literally farmed it for rings before we had normal raids because I didn't want to go into high end duties to get the Extreme ring.

Telegraphs are long enough to notice which side the symbols are appearing on halfway through them being placed and still dodge, even if you get clipped when it overlaps with cones it doesn't one shot unless you panic and get hit by both.

The first boss in Alexandria has a single mechanic. You stand in the circles, you stand diagonally outside of the plusses. They fire off in the order they appear. If the boss is about to attack in a front or side cone you move out of that. That's the only attack that requires you to do anything - the other is a tankbuster and stack that you have resolved in other fights 100 times already.

If you failed this twenty times it might be time to ask if this is the right game for you, and I say that sincerely without any snark.

I wrote a macro script to help with the first boss.

/ac if ground == bad then (dont);

My feedback is to do the dungeon with trusts and learn by watching when they move for mechanics

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Originally Posted by ngwoo

The first boss in Alexandria has a single mechanic. You stand in the circles, you stand diagonally outside of the plusses. They fire off in the order they appear. If the boss is about to attack in a front or side cone you move out of that. That's the only attack that requires you to do anything - the other is a tankbuster and stack that you have resolved in other fights 100 times already.

If you failed this twenty times it might be time to ask if this is the right game for you, and I say that sincerely without any snark.

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It seems likely that all four people just misunderstood the mechanic at the same time. We've all been there -- they're just unlucky that lightning struck all of them at once.

I like this boss quite a bit. I do have a bit of an issue with the whiteness of the AoE coupled with the small arena size. I find it mildly straining on the eyes. Nothing terrible, but for me still noticeable. I admit the white looks good, but I wish it were any other color. I love the dungeon and trial design so far this expac. But it sometimes gets a bit flashy and bright. I'd love an option in settings to tone things down a bit. Something that wouldn't affect the game for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

You have to admit the first boss in Alexandria is disproportionally hard compared to every other boss in every other dungeon. Given they can read data on wipes I seriously doubt it's gonna remain in its current state no matter what anyone says for or against it.

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What's hard about

Circle = Donut

Cross = Cross AOE

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Originally Posted by Mooserocka33

It honestly is the EASIEST of the 3 . Why are you battling people trying to help you. You keep saying you have to agree first boss is no , We dont its is so easy. + meant there will be a + shaped aoe from that location just get out of it close to the 0. 0 means go inside that. I know there is breath attacks while that is going on just ignore them if you get hit by them you WILL be fine. The ones you cant get hit by are the + and o attacks. That is it there is nothing else to that boss! stop rejecting help by doing that you are just saying to the playerbase you do not want to beat it , you just want to complain about it and be right. if you do it with trusts they even move to the safe locations just follow them . It cant be more easy you dont have to even look at the screen just follow a trust .

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The first boss isn't hard once you understand the +/o mechanic isn't waiting around for you, but don't overstate it. Its relative uniqueness alone is enough to make it harder than the other two.

The other two bosses feel like Endwalker bosses. They both just do a series of generic mechanics that we've all seen a thousand times.

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Originally Posted by Riguel

This is my own personal feedback as someone who has been healing since 1.0 as a white mage. I've noticed the big ramp up in dungeon difficulty and mechanics, some of them have been enjoyable, others not so much( lvl 95 final boss I'm looking at you). But I've been able to work with my FC and learn the mechanics and progress the story and dungeon. However on the final dungeon, Alexandria, making to the first boss. We died, continuously, over and over and over again. After about 20 different tries and dying each time, we threw in the towel. I don't mind learning mechanics and trying to get better but this is beyond my abilities as a healer. We understand the mechanics of it however there is not enough time to get between locations. Not everyone's reaction time is as quick others nor can you expect them to be. There is not enough pause for a healer to even mitigate the errors in the party. Upon dying, I lose all my lily stacks which gives me only tetragrammaton and benediction for instant heals in case of emergencies during these constant runs to the circles and avoiding the crosses and the bosses big conal attack. I can't try to save people with heals unless my lily's are up during these runs. I can't even use swift case because I have to save it in case someone falls which was happening to our tank because even having a couple stacks, fully healed and a tank mitigation popped, it was one shotting him. This was our tank, geared up to what he could get at the level and stacked with materia. There is not enough down time between all that happening to even heal the party to survive a hit with stack markers coming right afterwards. As a casual player, I don't do much raiding, I have done some in the past but not something I've personally enjoyed doing but this gets to the point its alienating the casual audience, people with disabilities, slow reaction times, etc from even progressing. Maybe they need to bring back Hard mode dungeons and stick this in there and readjust the MSQ's dungeons so this isn't so bad. Something is off with this dungeon and it needs reworked. Eventually we did make it through the dungeon after trying it another day and a few tries but still, it needs adjusting.

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Primarily an issue with dungeons as this is in regards to DPS Burst AoEs, which is why they're aiming to add enmity to AoE abilities from tanks, provoke itself however, claims it with stance.

Now in regards to that first boss, I'm no elitist, I've died to that boss, ran it plenty farming for accessories. I can admit that the x and o bit is rather tight, if you're not there, you're dead, I don't believe it needs a rework, perhaps just an extra 0.5s delay between x and o, at a push.

It's content that becomes muscle memory however, x and o first, frontal/side cleaves second.
The x/o mechanic is best when you've positioned yourself safe from the one that's yet to resolve, then foresight where you want to be for the next one, repeat until all have resolved.

Also, remember when we were all complaining that this game was all "Stand and let thing resolve", yeah, this expansion has listened to that, catered that in mind and has been well received.

From your first statement, as a person with a disability, I absolutely love the ramped up difficulty, it's more of a challenge at first because I didnt know the mechanic, after experiencing it, now I do flawlessly.

Perhaps, what the dev's could do, to assist with dungeon content is remember when games shown you a video of how things worked when you acquired a new skill? Do that for the mechanics that the boss does, or have a ghost npc, when your party wipes to it two times.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/07...08c948cc27.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tenebrosi

From your first statement, as a person with a disability, I absolutely love the ramped up difficulty, it's more of a challenge at first.

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I generally find that these people love to fake disability, or use disability as an excuse. Every disabled gamer I know takes a lot of pride in their accomplishments in spite of their disability, and generally finds it distasteful when an experience is made trivial for them and will more actively relish the challenge. I'm sure there are some disabled people who do want to make everything easier for accessibility purposes, but MSQ content is so easy at this point that I'm pretty sure you can clear it without the usage of your limbs through great determination and the incredible work of disabled-accessible user input device makers.

In any case, these dungeons don't need adjusting. Players just need to accept wipes as part of learning content - both for themselves, and for others. Some people might have it harder, and that's okay, because it just makes the accomplishment in spite of that even more impressive. Clearing the MSQ as a savage raider is meaningless to me, but if someone put their whole heart and soul into overcoming a disability or some other situation to do it I would absolutely celebrate with them.

It just feels to me like people are so preoccupied with the idea that everyone else is judging them when in reality basically the entire playerbase is cheering them on up until the point they give up and cry on the forums and try to get SE to backpedal on the best content design in the history of the game.

No it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by VioletCatastrophe

I generally find that these people love to fake disability, or use disability as an excuse. Every disabled gamer I know takes a lot of pride in their accomplishments in spite of their disability, and generally finds it distasteful when an experience is made trivial for them and will more actively relish the challenge. I'm sure there are some disabled people who do want to make everything easier for accessibility purposes, but MSQ content is so easy at this point that I'm pretty sure you can clear it without the usage of your limbs through great determination and the incredible work of disabled-accessible user input device makers.

In any case, these dungeons don't need adjusting. Players just need to accept wipes as part of learning content - both for themselves, and for others. Some people might have it harder, and that's okay, because it just makes the accomplishment in spite of that even more impressive. Clearing the MSQ as a savage raider is meaningless to me, but if someone put their whole heart and soul into overcoming a disability or some other situation to do it I would absolutely celebrate with them.

It just feels to me like people are so preoccupied with the idea that everyone else is judging them when in reality basically the entire playerbase is cheering them on up until the point they give up and cry on the forums and try to get SE to backpedal on the best content design in the history of the game.

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Completely agree, trust me I can find content hard, being Savage and Ultimates, but I have never complained about it, because when I've progged it, it's not the content that's the problem, it's me, I put that down to "I haven't progged this bit enough", and repeat progging tomorrow, and at that point, I nail that phase.

At best IF they had to make adjustments, they shouldn't water down the content that affects everyone, instead empower the players that are failing it with echo or something, for dungeon content alone, it's dungeons after all, give at 2 wipes, remove on clear of miniboss/boss, the instances have more than enough time.

But everything you've said, I wholeheartedly agree with and respect your take.

Oh I am so going have to post this here.
There is plenty of time use OGCDs
Alexandria dungeon First boss RP walking it in trusts no damage done by player just walking

this remind me of a white mage in zodiark spamming holy because it was light Magic xD
i agree learn to play the game now :)

How is that first boss difficult? There are plenty of safe spots for each mechanic....

The first boss aoes need to have a slightly longer time with the aoe telegraphs BEFORE they go off. The issue with these wipes at that boss repeatedly absolutely has to do with latency. On my screen I will look like I perfectly dodged the mechanic and was out of the bad, while being shocked to see a hit and a vuln stack. 2 vuln stacks as most dps, you are dead. 2 vulnstacks as a healer, you are dead. The fight is a nightmare not only for casters but for ANYONE who has any latency/ping issues during the fight.

Nah it's fine