Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Snip

---

You wrote all that but said so little. Let's sum it up, all she learns is how to do some menial tasks and... gasp, how to have re confidence versus fake confidence. And how does she learn that, by magically succeeding in everything. You really call this growth while also lecturing others in paying attention to the story? Also, "by the end she's calling others for help"? At the beginning she was calling others for help also, that is the whole reason we were there, remember? Where is the evolution in that? I know you're struggling real hard to defend this story, and I sympathise, it is pretty hard to defend without scraping the bottom of the barrel of arguments, but ease up ok the advice to others when all you can produce are weak and easily to disprove arguments.

Well, I found WL childish and annoying and made not care for the first half of the MSQ or for the ending. People compare her to Lyse but I found the closer comparison would be EW Emmanelain, a comic relief character.
I hated seeing the WoL playing second fiddle to her. The worst thing is there were better narrative paths to focus on, like Krile's or even Erenville's.
I hope to never see her again, but realistically I know the best we could get is her to be reduced to a side character like Lyse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheshCa7

You wrote all that but said so little. Let's sum it up, all she learns is how to do some menial tasks and... gasp, how to have re confidence versus fake confidence. And how does she learn that, by magically succeeding in everything. You really call this growth while also lecturing others in paying attention to the story? Also, "by the end she's calling others for help"? At the beginning she was calling others for help also, that is the whole reason we were there, remember? Where is the evolution in that? I know you're struggling real hard to defend this story, and I sympathise, it is pretty hard to defend without scraping the bottom of the barrel of arguments, but ease up ok the advice to others when all you can produce are weak and easily to disprove arguments.

---

Okay, I really do need to say this in much shorter terms.

Her approach never changed, because her approach was never wrong; she was always asking others for their perspective. She just needed to learn to do that with confidence and primarily out of the position of listening to others, rather than primarily out of perceived inadequacy. Learning a few of her dad's tools certainly helped, too.

In fact, we know her approach was never wrong, because her approach is our approach. We've spent over ten years driven by the approach of 'talk to people until they tell us something actionable'.

In contrast, every other claimant approaches problems without talking to the people who actually have them, and all face failure because of it.

If you don't like that story, you can go ahead and not like it; it's not evidence that you've secretly found a weakness, it's just evidence that you have personal tastes that don't align with the game this time. I'm gonna keep saying this is the best expansion to me, and that's also not evidence of anything other than it aligning with what I want out of an expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story. there's a good chunk of it that's Krile Story, and an even bigger chunk of it that's Erenville Story (I would argue perhaps too much, Erenville doesn't put forward enough of his own character to feel like his corners of the MSQ get much out of him), and we'd be remiss not to point out that there's a decent amount of Koana Story, too

---

How can you say this when the just the spoken line distribution looks like this:

https://i.imgur.com/EKq4GuO_d.webp?m...fidelity=grand

Even if you want to argue that this is just spoken dialogue, do you seriously think that Erenville and Krile have enough unspoken lines to even compete with Wuk Lamat? Keep in mind she will also have more unspoken lines to add to this tally.

What version of Dawntrail did you play, and where can I find it? Because all I got was the one where Wuk acted like a black hole for any and all characters around her. Even up to the final trial where she shoved herself into that, too. Deus ex machina style.

There was only one character and one story that mattered in this expansion, and it wasn’t Erenville’s or Krile’s. Their stories were ultimately condensed into the last couple of level 100 quests. Erenville had a little bit of the 4th zone, too—but not for long before Wuk Lamat had to be shoehorned into there, too!

I genuinely do not understand how you can say with a straight face that any other character had significant relevance in this story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

What version of Dawntrail did you play, and where can I find it? Because all I got was the one where Wuk acted like a black hole for any and all characters around her. Even up to the final trial where she shoved herself into that, too. Deus ex machina style.

---

It's funny isn't. Both the prominent queens in this story acted like black holes. One for narrative and one as a potential calamity.
--------
Also question regarding Cachiua.

Was she crippled or something before the dome appeared, some time before Erenville went and explore the world? Seeing how she had such massive desire to explore the world, but couldn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

How can you say this when the just the spoken line distribution looks like this:

---

Did you really graph the entire MSQ to try to make a point, or did someone else do that? That's an impressive level of whining to try to give weight to 'I Don't Like Thing', but really, just not liking the expansion is fine.

I didn't like Shadowbringers all that much, but I'm not about to pretend that a pie chart somehow makes my feelings about it any more legitimate.

Also, all that graph really says is that Wuk Lamat was in a lot of scenes across the entire expansion, and had some dedicated spotlight speeches, which we already know; it's not actually surprising, revealing or damning that she had the most lines in the expansion. What I'd actually like to see is graphs for specific stretches of the MSQ; say, across Yak T'el or Heritage Found, where there's other consistent main characters to compare against, like Sphene or Bakool Ja Ja. Sphene is REALLY high up there for only being in one and a half zones compared to Wuk Lamat's six-plus-the-cities; I think that shines light on the fact that there's some other factors that you're not discussing, and that maybe if we adjust for relative screentime, we'll find far chattier people than Wuk Lamat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Also question regarding Cachiua.

Was she crippled or something before the dome appeared, some time before Erenville went and explore the world? Seeing how she had such massive desire to explore the world, but couldn't.

---

I don't think so.

We see her in the flashback at the Cinderfields, she looks perfectly fine. Her feelings more seemed to come from the fact that the world is really big, and at the general era of technology their world has, it's just not physically possible to see all that much of it; remember that Tural doesn't have seafaring boats, and even dirigibles are pretty new. It also seemed like she had family and community responsibilities that prevented her from doing a lot of exploring later in life, which would explain a lot... but also isn't something you bring up while talking to your son who's clearly having very complicated feelings about things relating to you right now.

Just coming in to share my personal thoughts.
I think it was one of my favorite expansion MSQ.
It obviously had this flaw that everyone is talking about regarding Wuk being overshadowing everybody else.
But the story structure was great in my opinion, starting off with the world building, the lore, the way it ties into the second half of the plot which connected some dots on some good old lore. For me it was reminiscent of what I liked about Shadowbringers story.
The thing with Shadowbringers is that it had a lot more 'character moments' that people usually tend to remember more fondly than the world building etc.
One thing that I do not like though is that it ended like EndWalker and not like Shadowbringers. By that I mean, the story concluded. There is no loose end to have us close by 7.3. And I did not really like what they did with 6.X with it having it's own story arc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Did you really graph the entire MSQ to try to make a point, or did someone else do that? That's an impressive level of whining to try to give weight to 'I Don't Like Thing', but really, just not liking the expansion is fine.

---

No. That was someone else’s doing to illustrate the point of contention a lot of people have: that Wuk Lamat dominates everything. So you can save your ad hominem attack against me.

Quote:

---

Also, all that graph really says is that Wuk Lamat was in a lot of scenes across the entire expansion, and had some dedicated spotlight speeches, which we already know; it's not actually surprising, revealing or damning that she had the most lines in the expansion. What I'd actually like to see is graphs for specific stretches of the MSQ; say, across Yak T'el or Heritage Found, where there's other consistent main characters to compare against, like Sphene or Bakool Ja Ja. Sphene is REALLY high up there for only being in one and a half zones compared to Wuk Lamat's six-plus-the-cities; I think that shines light on the fact that there's some other factors that you're not discussing, and that maybe if we adjust for relative screentime, we'll find far chattier people than Wuk Lamat.

---

Do you truly think that a character with significantly less dialogue (spoken or otherwise) would have an opportunity to actually have relevance? Much less their story going into Dawntrail adequately explored? Like I said: Erenville got half a zone and a handful of quests at the end to resolve his plot with his mother. Krile’s storyline was drip-fed along the expansion, culminating to a grand total of two quests in the final zone to wrap up. I truly do not know how you can say that Wuk Lamat doesn’t dominate every other character, and I again ask: which version of Dawntrail did you play and where can I find it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Krile’s storyline was drip-fed along the expansion, culminating to a grand total of two quests in the final zone to wrap up. I truly do not know how you can say that Wuk Lamat doesn’t dominate every other character, and I again ask: which version of Dawntrail did you play and where can I find it.

---

I wouldn't even call that being dripped fed because damn near every time she tried to bring up her grandfather she was always rebuffed with "We can't talk about it." it was more like trying to turn on the faucet and nothing is coming out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Do you truly think that a character with significantly less dialogue (spoken or otherwise) would have an opportunity to actually have relevance? Much less their story going into Dawntrail adequately explored? Like I said: Erenville got half a zone and a handful of quests at the end to resolve his plot with his mother. Krile’s storyline was drip-fed along the expansion, culminating to a grand total of two quests in the final zone to wrap up. I truly do not know how you can say that Wuk Lamat doesn’t dominate every other character, and I again ask: which version of Dawntrail did you play and where can I find it.

---

Erenville's a laconic character that deliberately de-emphasises himself even in conversations about himself, and Krile largely takes part in discussions about her story rather than talking about it at length, with the one in-story instance of her actually giving a speech instead given to us in the form of an Echo flashback. (A flashback that incidentally we can't even hack into these figures because for whatever reason this graph doesn't have Galuf in it; why is that?) It is entirely reasonable that their numbers are that low despite being such presences. Meanwhile Wuk Lamat has multiple straight-up speeches, and like we've said, is the protagonist of the story who has a pronounced presence in every single zone. It is also entirely reasonable that her numbers are that high.

This graph is a cherry-picked statistic that I can poke even more holes into than just that (consider how low Zoraal Ja is despite him being unarguably an outsized figure in the expansion, and anyone who played the expansion would know why that is), and is utterly meaningless outside of pure trivia. You're trying to claim it as damning evidence so that your opinion might possibly be considered as more than it is: your feelings.

Your feelings are valid. But 'valid' doesn't mean 'fact'.

Now that I see the graph, it's funny how some people said Wuk Lamat had over 70% of all lines in the expansion lol.

I have yet to find where the data for this graph, but the first occurrence of it seemed to come from a Reddit post where the OP originally posted the graph without multiple characters including Koana. And then he left out more when posting the corrected version.

Main characters have anywhere between 5% (Minfillia in ARR) to 20% (Alphinaud in HW) lines in the overall MSQ script of each expansion.

Considering we're missing multiple characters in this graph (Galuf, the twins from Heritage Found, etc) and given Wuk Lamat is at 24% in this one, she's not far off from other expansions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Her approach never changed...

---

There, you just admitted that WL doesnt have any character growth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Meanwhile Wuk Lamat has multiple straight-up speeches, and like we've said, is the protagonist of the story who has a pronounced presence in every single zone. It is also entirely reasonable that her numbers are that high.

---

Yes, this is exactly the problem EVERYONE is complaining about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

This graph is a cherry-picked statistic...

---

What is it? You say she has multiple speeches and then you say the statistics are wrong.
I don't even understand why youre gaslighting this hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Your feelings are valid. But 'valid' doesn't mean 'fact'.

---

Translation: "Your opinion is wrong and if you dont agree with me, you are just too stupid to understand the nuances like only an enlightened Poet like me can".

You really think we're this stupid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honest_psycho

There, you just admitted that WL doesnt have any character growth.

---

'Character gains confidence and a voice of leadership of their own' is actually a really common character arc. Most likely because it's a thing a lot of people who become leaders actually go through in real life. Wuk Lamat's use of it is I think pretty strong and very clearly pronounced, it's a heightened and kinda fantastical version of something I've seen people go through personally, including myself. You're allowed to not like it, but the fact you don't seem to recognize it on a base level suggests you might not be reading the story especially well. That would be like not recognizing Estinien as having a character arc of growing out of the bigotries and hatreds that he was taught by a society that was actively pushing it for their own ends.

So I'm not really interested in arguing this further, because you don't seem to really understand the subject matter enough to have that discussion. And I don't really appreciate someone swearing at me, either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

'Character gains confidence and a voice of leadership of their own' is actually a really common character arc. Most likely because it's a thing a lot of people who become leaders actually go through in real life. Wuk Lamat's use of it is I think pretty strong and very clearly pronounced, it's a heightened and kinda fantastical version of something I've seen people go through personally, including myself. You're allowed to not like it, but the fact you don't seem to recognize it on a base level suggests you might not be reading the story especially well. That would be like not recognizing Estinien as having a character arc of growing out of the bigotries and hatreds that he was taught by a society that was actively pushing it for their own ends.

...because you don't seem to really understand the subject matter enough to have that discussion.

---

Another paragraph of explainations that have nothing to do with the main issue, side stepping it with an 'Estinien was a bigot somehow', trying to bait another irelevant discussion, and ending it with another insult.
And then you have the audacity to acuse ME of being mean.

YOU started calling people iliterate, I'm just returning the favour in kind.

Honestly, underwhelmed and annoyed with Dawntrail's MSQ.

I am not upset that there's still same game designs from previous XPacs - quest types like fetch quests, stalker quests, examine quests... That's always gonna be there.

And speaking of game types, it was wasted that one type they introduced in the FF16 event wasn't reintroduced again in MSQ.

I think there was too much dialog and less player agency in terms of going through the MSQ. I don't mind not being the forefront. That's not been us for many expansions. I mean there's a reason *Sage Nod* and *Punch fist in hand* are memes. However, there's a problem if people are stating SIDE quests have more meaningful engagement than MSQ I'm not saying it should be the other way around. I'm saying MSQ is cake. Side Quests should be frosting - accent what's baked well. Baked well...MSQ was not.

What everyone talked about and what I was more hyped for was the promise of a BEACH episode. I am not expecting it to be a full RP session but the lack of real fun BEACH moments in our vacation actually annoyed me. I don't exactly mean a literal BEACH but I felt more moments of genuine relaxation in the springs of Kugane hotel than here. I would have had a blast seeing cutscenes of fluff where you say get a dialog choice of putting on swimwear and trying them out and getting a small cutscene of us in that outfit doing vacationy things. Ie like the WoL could wear the skimpiest outfit or go the route of "nope just stating in what I have" just for hilarity. Stuff like that.

Then...there's the lack of SNARK or genuinely funny dialog moments. We had more fun in ShB than in Dawntrail when it came to sass.

As far as Wuk Lamat. Was she overpresent. Yeah I agree. VA in this needed much better coaching, it was slightly above ARR corny dialog or scenes not read correctly

For example:

People talking about Wuk jumping in at end trial.... Let me give you one that really got on my nerves.

Sphene. That endgame dungeon sounded like a mom wishing her kids well, and then when chaos ensues....she comes off like sounding like mom rushing you home cuz dinner is ready. It was grating and it didn't feel like a really bad war. I was just like...what is this? Dead Ends had more meaningful and impactful things going on...and they were still using chat bubble dialog "I destroyed them ALL!....I ...destroyed them all...."

As far as Wuk's characterization, yeah needed a better growth cycle and less repeats of certain gags. However, oddly enough she didn't get on my nerves as much as Stormblood's Hien did. Now that guy... I was so looking forward to him and then I felt like "f' that dude" later on.

If Dawntrail didn't have to keep the same story formula from other successful story arcs

As soon as out of nowhere Unique character design girl screaming FUTURE MOGSTATION GLAMOUR came out got all I needed to know out of the story.

I would have liked to see other spins.

- cnt...

- p2


I'm not upset over a "reset" but a reset doesn't mean going back to ARR's mistakes.

Other random thoughts:

Solution 9 and Sphene feels like analogies to ...mostly the US and our Carbon footprint, as well as AI. Sphene was so ridiculously repetitive because that's what her AI was...some idealized thing rather than something that can grow and create. Sure they scraped basically the original Sphene but it's like looking Midjourney with all the extra fingers hands and random hair. "For my People..." give her the magazine already...

I really hope there's more things to do in Solution 9's endgame zone looks so dang empty in that map and yes I know SAVAGE vendors will be there soon

Just finished both expert optional dungeons and while I loved the first one that I did, the second one connected to the final zone

feels like a Kingdom Hearts crossover dungeon with knockoff branding. All for a variety of dungeon aesthetics and all, but it's a vibe I do not need any more of and reminds me of why I dislike the look and vibe of Living Memory. (Am I the only person who prefers the version when it's all shut down?) Alexandria was another where the concept is done to death with not just Amaurot/Dead Ends/Lunar Subterrane but Sigma Dreamscape. Mechanically they're innovating, at least. But I want to explore the living, present worlds and if get the past be it ruins, not facsimiles conjured by the antagonists. I have no love or attachment to Elpis or wish to be in the Unsundered World. Same goes for the Endless's obnoxious fake theme park for artificial ghosts.

I don't dislike Wuk Lamat, but considering how many quests involve talking to her and how she's almost omnipresent (being absent only from the first half-ish of Shaaloani), while I may not have exact statistics it's impossible to deny that she hogs the spotlight. She's the main protagonist and that's fine, but Lyse was the main protagonist of Stormblood and while she had her share of screentime she didn't hog it - at least, not to the degree Wuk Lamat does.

It's also impossible to deny that the Warrior of Light only has a bit part; this may be a "new story arc," but nuggets of wisdom and martial indomitability notwithstanding, we may as well have been an NPC. At least Stormblood had our rivalry with Zenos to keep us invested, and even A Realm Reborn had us playing a bigger part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

So I'm not really interested in arguing this further, because you don't seem to really understand the subject matter enough to have that discussion. And I don't really appreciate someone swearing at me, either.

---

And some of us don’t appreciate you basically calling us dumb in the most roundabout way possible simply because we disagree with you about a character. Wuk Lamat is a Blackhole Sue. That is simply a fact if you look at the definition of what a Blackhole Sue is and apply it to her. And, last I checked, any variation of a Mary Sue =/= a good character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ‘TV Tropes’

The Black Hole Sue: Her gravity is so great, she draws all the attention and causes other characters (and, often, reality itself) to bend and contort in order to accommodate her. Characters don't act naturally around her. They instead serve as plot enablers for her, with dialogue that only acts as set-ups for her response. She dominates every scene she is in, with most scenes without her serving only to give the characters a chance to "talk freely" about her. Most people don't oppose her and anybody who does will either realize their fault in doing so or just prove easy to overcome.

---

- Wuk draws all attention to herself in just about every scene she’s in. There’s even several where she is outright blocking the WoL’s character model. Either with her body or her weapon.

- None of the characters act like themselves when she’s involved. The Scions and the WoL have all been lobotomized and re-programmed to explicitly only agree with her. We are never allowed to contest her through dialogue options. We can’t even pick the “…” stay silent option. We are all her Yesmen.
(I don’t count the single dialogue option we had with Gulool Ja Ja of “she’s not ready” because it’s not even to her. And, ultimately, he just says the Rite is a way to make her ready because she’s an awesome-sauce person who can do anything!! Because the writer said so. Not because she showed any growth or development on her own.)

- The only person who really opposes her is Zarool Ja, who was shoehorned into the villain role with very little build up after Bakool Ja Ja did a character turn-around so fast I actually got whiplash from it. Nothing wrong with his motives, but gods, there was NO build up for it. At all. It came off almost as a retcon of his character.



The Wuk Lamat defenders are as wild as the Zenos defenders that called for him to get a redemption arc post-Endwalker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

It's also impossible to deny that the Warrior of Light only has a bit part; this may be a "new story arc," but nuggets of wisdom and martial indomitability notwithstanding, we may as well have been an NPC. At least Stormblood had our rivalry with Zenos to keep us invested, and even A Realm Reborn had us playing a bigger part.

---

I consider this a positive, personally. People on this forum have spitballed how you possibly could have the WoL take a smaller and less central role, often from the perspective of trying to de-power or kill them, which feels like it solves the problem but doesn't really, because the problem is kinda inherent to the gameplay, you can't just say 'this character's weaker now' and expect it to work. It's a hard solve; how do you keep a story about one singular blank-slate protagonist interesting, when they just keep getting stronger but don't exactly become less of a blank-slate.

I think this takes a clever angle, of instead pivoting us into a different role, that uses our history and presumed strength level without just making us the protagonist. We're taking a mentor role, we're the Auron to Wuk Lamat's Tidus (and please don't try to find a Yuna in that metaphor, it will NOT work). Teaching someone else how to take on the role that they strive to attain, using similar tools to our own. If anything I think we could've served to be de-emphasised more, just because while Wuk Lamat clearly did need our help to get inner strength and confidence, as well as a hefty sword arm that she didn't necessarily have early on, it could've served to have someone else take a role in teaching her political leadership. That's a harder role to fill, though, since all the politicians we know are busy, y'know, being politicians. Alphinaud spends the entire expansion doing basically nothing, his skillset is politics-adjacent, maybe he could've taken that role?


That kinda does by nature involve putting a lot of eggs into the one basket, though; a story primarily about a silent protagonist and their mentee is gonna require said mentee to shoulder a lot of the storytelling weight. That's inevitably gonna not work out for some people, because there's no such thing as a universally beloved character, but I actually don't think that's a new problem for the game; Heavensward and Stormblood put a lot of weight on hoping that Estinien and Lyse got over with people. I'd argue that most of both Shadowbringers and Endwalker actually hinge a lot on you liking specifically Emet-Selch and his story, and he isn't even necessarily a very big character in terms of per-scene presence. I also don't necessarily think that's a flaw, though; FFXIV's story is inherently very character-driven, and everyone has different tastes on what they like in characters, so having a polarizing character sorta just means you did the job right. It means the character is strong enough to provoke opinions and feelings.

Genuinely, I would argue that there's really popular FFXIV characters that couldn't handle the sort of spotlight Wuk Lamat does, because that requires a character to be vibrant and multifaceted enough to remain interesting during the entire spotlight. Harchefaunt, Aymeric, Hien, they couldn't remain interesting across that much time. Most of the Scions couldn't manage it. Hell, their prominence in the expansion indirectly sort of shows that Krile and Erenville don't have strong enough personalities to carry an expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think this takes a clever angle, of instead pivoting us into a different role, that uses our history and presumed strength level without just making us the protagonist. We're taking a mentor role, we're the Auron to Wuk Lamat's Tidus (and please don't try to find a Yuna in that metaphor, it will NOT work). Teaching someone else how to take on the role that they strive to attain, using similar tools to our own. If anything I think we could've served to be de-emphasised more, just because while Wuk Lamat clearly did need our help to get inner strength and confidence, as well as a hefty sword arm that she didn't necessarily have early on, it could've served to have someone else take a role in teaching her political leadership. That's a harder role to fill, though, since all the politicians we know are busy, y'know, being politicians. Alphinaud spends the entire expansion doing basically nothing, his skillset is politics-adjacent, maybe he could've taken that role?

---

The problem with shifting the silent protagonist into a mentor role is that a mentor... necessarily has a lot of things to say. Unlike Auron who, being voiced, was able to provide a lot of exposition, was a minor celebrity in Spira, and actually had a personality and goals, the Warrior of Light has none of those - other than "seeking adventure" after the cosmic crises of the past couple expansions, they're a blank slate. A silent protagonist is a terrible fit for the mentor role because mentors necessarily need to say a lot; the net effect is that it winds up looking like Wuk Lamat mentors herself for the most part, which leads to the question of "Why am I even here?" Even in the Warrior of Light's bread and butter role of taking down threats too powerful for anyone else to handle (Sphene / Queen Eternal), Wuk Lamat manages to upstage them.

Again, I don't have a problem with Wuk Lamat being the main protagonist (we were the deuteragonist of Stormblood and the ultimate protagonist of both Shadowbringers and Endwalker; the train's gotta let up at some point) but that doesn't mean she needs to be in the spotlight for 85% of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Genuinely, I would argue that there's really popular FFXIV characters that couldn't handle the sort of spotlight Wuk Lamat does, because that requires a character to be vibrant and multifaceted enough to remain interesting during the entire spotlight. Harchefaunt, Aymeric, Hien, they couldn't remain interesting across that much time. Most of the Scions couldn't manage it. Hell, their prominence in the expansion indirectly sort of shows that Krile and Erenville don't have strong enough personalities to carry an expansion.

---

I think this is putting the horse before the cart - any flaws in characterization (or a lack of depth) can be remedied through clever writing and giving them more screentime. Krile and Erenville don't fall flat because they're poorly characterized, they're poorly characterized because they're not written all that well and don't get a lot of time to shine thanks to the story focusing so heavily on Wuk Lamat. Erenville guides you across Tural and has some moments in the back half of the story, while Krile is basically just there to provide a plot device to get into the final zone (they both have their moments in Living Memory, but Wuk Lamat has her own things there too). They could have had bigger roles in the story, but weren't written to; saying "they lack personality" because of this is a pretty poor defense, IMO.

I want to say this is just a consequence of Hiroi being unused to the ensemble cast, but I couldn't say for sure. Either way, Wuk Lamat being the focus character at the expense of the rest of the cast just didn't work for me. I don't dislike her or anything, but she held the spotlight in places that really would have been better suited to giving it to other people (mostly in the back half of the story).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Wuk Lamat is a Blackhole Sue.

---

I have just the thing for this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...3013755ed851f&

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

They could have had bigger roles in the story, but weren't written to; saying "they lack personality" because of this is a pretty poor defense, IMO.

---

I don't think this is a problem with Daichi Hiroi at all, but the challenge with Krile and Erenville is that they're designed for a different purpose than 'being the central character of a story', and so giving them a story that they're central to, even a side-story like Dawntrail does, leads to a bit of difficulty in crafting that story. You can't just give them a story like Estinien's or Wuk Lamat's, that doesn't work for them. That's not a problem with them as characters, nor is it a problem of a writer that can't or won't do it; it's like arguing that a motorcycle has entirely the wrong amount of wheels to be an effective bus. So what you need to do is to instead put them in stories that suit the kind of character they were made to be. (Fair warning, exploring this takes a bit, it got away from me.)

Starting with the more typical one first, Erenville was made to be a very low-key supporting character, as well as, chiefly, a non-combat one. He's deliberately a very quiet and reserved character, because he's not designed to have a lot of feelings or opinions; he was designed to idly drop plot details that the main cast acts on later. But unlike Zero, the character Hiroi made to not have a lot to say, he doesn't really have a story reason that begs for the spotlight, nor does he have a skillset that forces it onto him; he's just naturally a quiet character without a massive amount to add to the sort of story MSQs tell. I actually admire them sticking to that, a character in the entourage that just won't fight is genuinely interesting, but he'd really be more at home in a gatherer questline or variant dungeon, and is also what would happen if you took a character from one of those storylines and plopped them into the MSQ.

Krile's a bit more interesting, because while she's not an O.G. Scion, she's designed in much the same vein; she's intended to be a consistent contact of a larger story, someone who gives you the 'Kill Ten Rats' quest, but also gives you a greater context for why doing that is important. Like someone like Y'shtola, that means she's not designed to be an extremely expressive character, or to have a deeply personal story, as it's implied that her major personal growth moments have already happened. Hell, I'm fairly sure she's heavily based on Krile from FFV to shortcut most of that; 'it's Krile, you know Krile' kinda clips past a lot of those questions. To that end, a story like Stormblood Eureka treats her very well; a mystery, and one that requires a lot of legwork for us to do, is a perfect story for her, giving her a lot to do and discover without necessarily needing a lot of emotional storytelling. Even Stormblood Eureka needed Ejika there to be the emotional foil, though.


I actually feel like Dawntrail treats them very well as the characters they are, by building a lot of their parts of the story around what they can and can't do. Erenville mostly takes the backseat, providing worldbuilding information and non-combat solutions to problems, but for a lot of the early story is the straight man to the more emotionally expressive Wuk Lamat... and when it gets to his part of the story, they give him Cahcuia as the emotional counterweight, someone to be emotionally expressive in a way that wouldn't be true for Erenville himself--and to provide the eventual environment for him to be expressive when it comes time for that. Meanwhile, Krile gets a mystery to play to those same strengths as Stormblood Eureka did; but this time, she gets a lot of scenes talking to people about the mystery and its emotional weight, with everyone else in the cast filling the role as Ejika did... and the fact all of her big reveal scenes are voice acted meaning that she can do more than she used to there, too. Her English voice actor is a low-key champion there, she's really good at those quiet, trembling emotions of someone who's just received huge news but isn't the type to be loudly open about it.

I don't think it's perfectly executed, but I think they took the right angles with both of them, they both have the story that suits them. I think to perfectly nail them they'd just need one more scene each; maybe one of Erenville getting clever in front of Cahcuia in Heritage Found, so she can gush about how far he's come, and I'd maybe like to replace the scene of Krile telling us what Gulool Ja Ja told her with just the scene of Gulool Ja Ja telling her himself, or add one with Koana contrasting her quiet optimism with his simmering resentment about the same subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rookie1

A little further for me. I think Wuk Lamat's presence was acceptable up to the 2nd trial. She had a purpose/stake in seeing her brother dead. I was okay with her up till there. But that is it for me. She should have left the party after the return to tuyilolyal. Krile and Enenes'shypa should have taken center stage as well as the WoL. Sphene is a WoL problem.
Even Raubaun had the sense that zenos wasn't his problem.

---

This. I loved Wuk Lamat and I loved helping her in the rite of succession. I was even happy to have her there through the second trial since that was her fight. But that's the point where she should have left the story. Then it would have allowed the WoL and the player to develop a personal connection with the antagonist. I was unfortunately missing that in this expansion in comparison to prevoius expansions. We also carry the soul of Azem, who was both a wanderer and a protector of the star. It was our place to fight that fight, not Wuk Lamat. It would have capped off the expansion nicely, as Wuk Lamat's mentor stepped up to handle their normal duties.

I've seen complaints that the city leaders in previous expansions used the WoL as nothing but a weapon. But I never felt that way. I felt they relied upon us and looked to us for help. Here, I felt like the WoL was just a weapon being pointed at something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Most of the Scions couldn't manage it. Hell, their prominence in the expansion indirectly sort of shows that Krile and Erenville don't have strong enough personalities to carry an expansion.

---

This is entirely due to a lack of talent and creativity of the writer, because he wanted to put WL on a pedestal, WHICH IS THE POINT OF CONTENTION, NOT THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

And again, I don't care about your wordsalad, implying that everyone who doesnt get it is just an idiot.

Bu now I'm 100% sure, you have some personal, emotional reason to defend WL this much, and youre just hidding behind some intellectual mumbo-jumbo to hide it.
Otherwise you would have accepted that other people just have a different opinion about her exessive screentime.

But go ahead, write as many paragraphs as you want, we're not dumb enough to fall for this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honest_psycho

This is entirely due to a lack of talent and creativity of the writer, because he wanted to put WL on a pedestal, WHICH IS THE POINT OF CONTENTION, NOT THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

And again, I don't care about your wordsalad, implying that everyone who doesnt get it is just an idiot.

Bu now I'm 100% sure, you have some personal, emotional reason to defend WL this much, and youre just hidding behind some intellectual mumbo-jumbo to hide it.
Otherwise you would have accepted that other people just have a different opinion about her exessive screentime.

But go ahead, write as many paragraphs as you want, we're not dumb enough to fall for this.

---

Cleretic does this all the time. You did a good job but it's probably best for your sanity if you bow out. You proved your point very well, anyone can see that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Cleretic does this all the time. You did a good job but it's probably best for your sanity if you bow out. You proved your point very well, anyone can see that.

---

Aww, thank you very much for your concern.
But don't worry, I kinda enjoy debating like this, despite my tone.

Like solving a hard logic puzzle!
But yeah, I'm gonna tone it down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Cleretic does this all the time. You did a good job but it's probably best for your sanity if you bow out. You proved your point very well, anyone can see that.

---

They're really not, don't give them that credit. They've ignored the things I actually said about everything in favor of just continuing to fire off personal attacks, and beg the question on a point that honestly I don't think they've ever actually articulated. I just put them on ignore because it's the same non-argument again and again, no matter what I say.

I said 'it's okay to have preferences'; they claimed that I meant it as an insult, before saying that I should accept that people have preferences. They seem to really think that I have some secret, argument-compromising personal and emotional reason that I like Wuk Lamat, when... honestly, we all know that preferences are personal, I have always been open about liking Wuk Lamat, and that I just like putting into words why I think she, and other parts of the story, work. And those reasons are things like 'Wuk Lamat has an arc I relate to and is well-suited for the lead role she has', and 'Krile's story is well-picked to suit the character she is'.

If they really think I have some secret, compromising or nefarious reason for liking Wuk Lamat that I'm just not saying, then I think they should just come forward with the accusation, because nobody's going to hear it if you don't say it out loud. And if you think they proved their point about it, maybe you can share what that point is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

They're really not, don't give them that credit. They've ignored the things I actually said about everything in favor of just continuing to fire off personal attacks.

---

Here's a quote from YOU earlier.:

Quote:

---

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story

---

You're the last person here who has any right to complain about personal attacks.
Every "mean" comment directed at you came AFTER that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honest_psycho

Here's a quote from YOU earlier.:


You're the last person here who has any right to complain about personal attacks.
Every "mean" comment directed at you came AFTER that.

---

You think Wuk Lamat doesn't have character growth. Not 'doesn't have good character growth', but doesn't have any at all. That either requires not understanding what character growth is, or not understanding Dawntrail.

But I don't care about that. I care about what you keep dancing around. Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat is that you seem so sure I'm hiding? That isn't the simple reason of 'I find her fun and think she is relatable'? You seem to think you've got some secret gotcha, so really, don't hold back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

You think Wuk Lamat doesn't have character growth. Not 'doesn't have good character growth', but doesn't have any at all. That either requires not understanding what character growth is, or not understanding Dawntrail.

But I don't care about that. I care about what you keep dancing around. Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat is that you seem so sure I'm hiding? That isn't the simple reason of 'I find her fun and think she is relatable'? You seem to think you've got some secret gotcha, so really, don't hold back.

---

My primary reason for wrting in this forum in the first place is to provide feedback to the developers and give my reasons to why the writer of this MSQ needs to be immediately fired.
I think I and other people her already gave sufficient reasons for that.

The reason why I assumed some hidden reason was out of genuine frustration and confusion and because of the insults and vitriol you showed us.
And even if that reason is what I think it is, its not even relevant, since I already achieved my primary goal, which i stated above.

In hindsight, assuming some ulterior motive like this was petty and I have to apologize for my conduct.
Therefore, elaborating on that reason would be an actual personal attack, and I already acused you of being an "enlightened Poet".
And I'm not so boorish to perform armchair-psychology to win an argument on the internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honest_psycho

You're the last person here who has any right to complain about personal attacks.
Every "mean" comment directed at you came AFTER that.

---

I would avoid getting too heated with Cleretic. Especially when you see something like this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

But I don't care about that. I care about what you keep dancing around. Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat is that you seem so sure I'm hiding? That isn't the simple reason of 'I find her fun and think she is relatable'? You seem to think you've got some secret gotcha, so really, don't hold back.

---

I believe you (honest_pyscho) are arguing rather well. My personal opinion on the story is that Wuk Lamat is the worst character ever written in FFXIV. As my previous post would imply, she is a Black Hole Sue who warps the game, its plots, and lore around her shredding anything that comes to close only to consume it should it wander ever too close. It is why I believe beloved characters, such as G'raha Tia and Y'shtola, are largely absent from the story as they know the ramifications of getting close to a black hole, thus know to stay away from the literal personification of one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Now, can you please say the quiet part loud like you want to, and say what the 'personal, emotional' reason I like Wuk Lamat

---

I am bored so I will take the bait:

The main trait I can you seeing a part of yourself in Wuk Lamat is that you can related to her naïvety. This is clearly visible based on the conversations going on around you and honest_psycho here. Outside of this, I would find certain things difficult to associate since, from my time here observing, you don't exactly have the magnetic personality that Wuk Lamat is most well known for. To put it into literary/trope terms, where Wuk Lamat is the Black Hole Sue, you are the anti-Sue, so perhaps it is a matter of opposite tropes being attracted to each other. I do think what answer you are looking for probably is not one of the ones I listed above since you are tenaciously grasping for an answer.

One of my biggest issues with the game was there was far too much saccharine. I mean, everything was "THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP AND HAPPINESS" more so than in the previous expansions and it all felt a bit much.

And this usually took the form of Wuk Lamat. Who is jammed in our faces at all points in the game, whether we liked it or not. We weren't given much agency to draw our own conclusions and most everything was black and white.

That was a little grating to me.

Wuk Lamat is great, some of you are just incapable of joy.

Most of the complaints I see levied against Dawntrail's MSQ are CinemaSins-tier "welp, that's another trope" mentions, which doesn't really say anything. All fiction can be reduced in that way.

As for forum scuffles...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I don't think this is a problem with Daichi Hiroi at all, but the challenge with Krile and Erenville is that they're designed for a different purpose than 'being the central character of a story', and so giving them a story that they're central to, even a side-story like Dawntrail does, leads to a bit of difficulty in crafting that story.

---

I find this to be a well thought-out consideration of the challenges in the writing process. While I definitely hoped for more from Erenville and Krile, it's incredibly difficult to write punchy stories with characters that were historically written to play a supportive or subdued role without completely changing their characters. In this way it very much makes sense that they exist in Wuk Lamat's metaphorical orbit, as she is a much stronger character unburdened by previous expectations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honest_psycho

This is entirely due to a lack of talent and creativity of the writer, because he wanted to put WL on a pedestal, WHICH IS THE POINT OF CONTENTION, NOT THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

---

This feels like the typical "find a target, choose a minor grievance, escalate to harassment" strategy I've grown to dislike seeing plastered all over the internet.


I do think people like to put specific writers up on a pedestal (or a gallows) when in reality expansions aren't just the work of one person. IIRC in interviews some CS3 staff mentioned that they're splitting up the workload more for DT, which I definitely felt. Dawntrail in particular benefits a bit from the writing feeling a bit more disjointed, as it emphasizes the theme of diversity. Simultaneously, it's also a breath of fresh air having a consistent, immersive experience all within the same continent despite this!

Wdym, I'm having the time of my life here, lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jadeharley

This feels like the typical "find a target, choose a minor grievance, escalate to harassment" strategy I've grown to dislike seeing plastered all over the internet.

---

> find a target
I came here to provide feedback for the developers and provide my reasons.
I didn't target anyone, all my questions and arguments were made out of genuine confusion/curiocity or logical conviction.

> choose a minor grievance
Being called an iliterate idiot for not liking a character is not a "minor grievance", its an insult.

> escalate to harassment
Being agitated and rude in response to being insulted is not "harassment", its "eye for an eye".
Be nice to me, and I'm nice to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jadeharley

I find this to be a well thought-out consideration of the challenges in the writing process. While I definitely hoped for more from Erenville and Krile, it's incredibly difficult to write punchy stories with characters that were historically written to play a supportive or subdued role without completely changing their characters. In this way it very much makes sense that they exist in Wuk Lamat's metaphorical orbit, as she is a much stronger character unburdened by previous expectations.

---

It's a problem that the game's grappled with before, too, in different forms; I think the main reason Yda became Lyse is because she was a character conceived of for a role that couldn't plausibly take center-stage. But Lyse also shows the issues with essentially overhauling a character to take a lead role, which is something you'd have to do to give Krile or (especially) Erenville an even temporary lead role. I honestly don't think most of the people who hate Lyse are genuinely coming from this angle, although it certainly turns up in their complaints, but it really is pretty hard to suddenly buy that the ditzy comic relief character is now a serious lead in a story about fighting an oppressive government, and I can't say the attempt was an unmitigated success.

In thinking about it, I also wonder if it might explain some of the other gaps in character development across the game. Like, Y'shtola's in the same box as Krile in being a character designed for a subdued supportive role, but unlike Krile she doesn't have any lingering mysteries in her past to build a story around. So maybe that's why Y'shtola's appeared to never have any character development; because writing 'a Y'shtola character development story' is somehow even more impossible than Krile, who at least has some plot hooks that are well-suited for the sort of story she can participate in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's a problem that the game's grappled with before, too, in different forms; I think the main reason Yda became Lyse is because she was a character conceived of for a role that couldn't plausibly take center-stage. But Lyse also shows the issues with essentially overhauling a character to take a lead role, which is something you'd have to do to give Krile or (especially) Erenville an even temporary lead role. I honestly don't think most of the people who hate Lyse are genuinely coming from this angle, although it certainly turns up in their complaints, but it really is pretty hard to suddenly buy that the ditzy comic relief character is now a serious lead in a story about fighting an oppressive government, and I can't say the attempt was an unmitigated success.

In thinking about it, I also wonder if it might explain some of the other gaps in character development across the game. Like, Y'shtola's in the same box as Krile in being a character designed for a subdued supportive role, but unlike Krile she doesn't have any lingering mysteries in her past to build a story around. So maybe that's why Y'shtola's appeared to never have any character development; because writing 'a Y'shtola character development story' is somehow even more impossible than Krile, who at least has some plot hooks that are well-suited for the sort of story she can participate in.

---

I mean, Y'shtola could be developed more if they brought Y'mitra into the msq. There's always somewhere to go. Thancred and Urianger have proven that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

I mean, Y'shtola could be developed more if they brought Y'mitra into the msq. There's always somewhere to go. Thancred and Urianger have proven that.

---

Except that Y'mhitra has the exact same problem, she's ALSO a largely put-together passive supporting character who exists to tell us things we should then do. She isn't somehow a ticket to heavy character depth, even if introducing characters with connections to them is a pretty decent angle.

Thancred had the advantage of being damn near the only Scion who had a plot hook back in 1.0, in his connection with F'lahminn and Minfilia, so it was natural to build on that in a storyline. Urianger is... much weirder, because while they did get some early juice out of Moenbryda, the main thing they got out of him was giving him an entirely unique role--the weird spy and saboteur--and then build him character scenes out of that.

If I were to try to do a Y'shtola character development story mainly through focus on a character interaction rather than something like a mystery, my first angle would be Runar, but he's a bit far away. My second angle would be to bring in not Y'mhitra, but the Y tribe itself, or at least their nunh. I don't think a story like this would really let Y'shtola play to her strengths, but perhaps the angle for her actually is to go for the weak spot.