Dawntrail's mediatour dungeon was already cleared without healers.

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Originally Posted by justausername

1) THIS IS NOT A FINAL BUILD.

This is the media tour, do you not pay attention to the disclaimers that state 'things are subject to change'? How many times have we seen numbers and even complete skill changes before actual release? Many times. You cannot base the actual game on what you see at the media tour. It is a sample. Not the real thing. Just because it seemed 'easy' there, doesn't mean it will in the actual game.

2) these players in the video play savage raids. even with the handicap of not having their usual set ups, they are skilled. They might saaay they aren't that good, but they are better then the average player who is going to be entering this content.

3) this is the FIRST dungeon of the expansion. it should NOT be hard. You know how HATED Tower of Zot is? It's the hardest dungeon in EW, and people hate it. You have to ease people into the expansion.

4) they are WORKING on upping the difficulty. If they did it right away, the contrast would be too sharp, and years in the future, when someone is doing the MSQ, when the last EW dungeon is easy, and then the next one is super hard, they would be really off putting. They have to ramp it up slowly. Make the MSQ dungeons slowly get harder, and then by the time we hit 7.1 start throwing the enhanced stuff at us. Which is actually what he said in an interview during the media tour. Once you get to the dungeons that will unlock 'Expert' (the level 100 dungeons), you will feel like it is harder.

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How about instead of pandering to potential fears of a nebulous player in the future they pander to the players who are actually playing now. Do you really think it’s a selling point to existing healers they are already redundant before the expansion even launches, especially since people don’t hate zot, you know what they hate- troia and aetherfont because you can fall asleep on day 1 of doing them, aetherfonts best feature are those two waving polar bears in the opening

The rest of your comment is the same lies they tell us every expansion, I’m still waiting on the healing increases they promised me in ShB when they nuked my beloved SB SCH from orbit, I’ve waited through 3 rounds of media tours, final launches and savage balance patches, there is no more damage coming

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Originally Posted by justausername

2) these players in the video play savage raids. even with the handicap of not having their usual set ups, they are skilled. They might saaay they aren't that good, but they are better then the average player who is going to be entering this content.

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On one of the bosses Xeno quite literally dragged off nascent flash from his menu, did AoE rotation on single target and the ninja got hit 4 times by avoidable AoE without dying. Skill level isn't an excuse. Citing expert dungeons as being 'hard' really makes me question your credibility.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Can't wait to cast Aspected Benefic once every 15 seconds and spam Malefic as filler, for another entire expansion :confused:

I have a lot of problems with WoW, but man what I wouldn't give for some of their class design brains to leak into FFXIV...

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Jokes on you, they probably don’t even need that Asp Benefic. You’ll spam Fall Malefic for eternity & you will like it.

We’re just around to make sure the Duty Finder queue pops :p

That video alone is proof that SE or YoshiP don't listen to feedback whatsoever. Anyone else who believes they do is just on massive copium. Maybe their entire point is to promote 8.0 is to have healers become dps-support type of thing.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

same, he is a bit too toxic masculine for my taste.

Also would like to comment on the dungeon.

In my opinion, the first dungeon in an expansion should not be too hard.

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Tower of Zot was the only remotely challenging and thus engaging dungeon in all of endwalker.

To clarify things, Yoshi-P has been saying jobs will be made easier or more comfortable.

He isn't trying to say that content will be harder but rather that it will be more exciting. He said it'll be faster, mechanics won't be all the same and they are going to try new things even if it's a risk, like they did before Stormblood. To make up for that, we'll have more tools to deal with them (and it thus explains things like moving leylines). I already saw some interesting ideas in the dungeon. They aren't meant to be harder particularly, just more exciting.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Tower of Zot was the only remotely challenging and thus engaging dungeon in all of endwalker.

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Well that's your opinion. I saw plenty of wipes or near-wipes in Ktisis and Dead Ends and joined them in progress multiple times. And a lot of people abandoned during those first Vanaspati pulls and I got it in progress a lot due to it.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

To clarify things, Yoshi-P has been saying jobs will be made easier or more comfortable.

He isn't trying to say that content will be harder but rather that it will be more exciting. He said it'll be faster, mechanics won't be all the same and they are going to try new things even if it's a risk, like they did before Stormblood. To make up for that, we'll have more tools to deal with them (and it thus explains things like moving leylines). I already saw some interesting ideas in the dungeon. They aren't meant to be harder particularly, just more exciting.

Well that's your opinion. I saw plenty of wipes or near-wipes in Ktisis and Dead Ends and joined them in progress multiple times. And a lot of people abandoned during those first Vanaspati pulls and I got it in progress a lot due to it.

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I mean how do you make mechanics more interesting for the healer when the party doesn’t need the healer. Barbie is an example of a fight that’s well designed in normal in terms of what she does and how unique her mechanics are but a remotely competent party still doesn’t really need the healers because she just doesn’t do a lot of damage in normal

If the extent of the “excitement in encounter design” for healers is keep yourself alive that’s not exactly a terribly big sell because 30 of our 36 buttons go unpressed, seraphism is disgustingly overpowered, I cannot physically think of a mechanic on normal that will remotely justify something like Seraphism

Just change the healer role to a support role already instead of the game lying to us, I'd rather take a support role with limited heals with dmg and support buffs vs 1111111111(apply dot)11111.

once they add some "tight" heal checks that require a minimum of skill, 80% of all so called "casuals" will fail it and start complaining in the forums about the difficulty. See pharos sirius
thats why we cant have nice things and everything involving "casuals" is dirt easy

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean how do you make mechanics more interesting for the healer when the party doesn’t need the healer.

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I actually don't think they were referring to the healer (well, at least from a healing perspective), beside that they'll have to carry out all these mechanics too.

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Barbie is an example of a fight that’s well designed in normal in terms of what she does

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Probably. As it stands, I find it rather braindead the heal, but I guess item levels have grown a bit.

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I cannot physically think of a mechanic on normal that will remotely justify something like Seraphism

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I can't think of many mechanics at all that would even justify Scholar's current kit, except rarely when there is scaling like in Amaurot, Ktisis, Vanaspati, Holminster Switch, Dohn Mheg, etc. But y'know how a lot of dungeons and trials are just Whispering Dawn levels of healing that everyone could handle themselves with Bloodbath/Second Wind/combo heals/etc.

Game needs to throw more lethal, and unavoidable esunable stuff at groups.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

once they add some "tight" heal checks that require a minimum of skill, 80% of all so called "casuals" will fail it and start complaining in the forums about the difficulty. See pharos sirius
thats why we cant have nice things and everything involving "casuals" is dirt easy

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You mean like many dungeons in 2.0?

Remember when we had enrages? Mechanics that would one shot you AND prevent you from being raised? Actual DPS checks?

Pharos Sirus didn't get the stick it did because of heal checks. IMO it had some newish stuff to dungeons and some of it was particularly unkind such as gamepad users having a horrible time trying to find and spot Siren's dive-bombs.

A plain heal check alone isn't really a problem, it's when you start throwing forced movement and such in at the same time that the 'casuals' start struggling.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Honestly, non-healers have way too much self-sustain. Warriors are essentially gods at this point.

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And instead of nerfing the comically overpowered axe man they just buff and oversimplify everything else to make it not stand out as much.

I feel like they could at least have more normal mode bosses that try to keep on your toes by doing raidwides right after mechanics finish resolving so there's pressure to either top everyone off immediately or mitigate hard enough that the follow-up hit won't kill anyone.

As things are currently the instances of unavoidable damage generally happens at such spaced out intervals that you have enough time to top yourself off with personal CDs before the next hit happens.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like they could at least have more normal mode bosses that try to keep on your toes by doing raidwides right after mechanics finish resolving so there's pressure to either top everyone off immediately or mitigate hard enough that the follow-up hit won't kill anyone.

As things are currently the instances of unavoidable damage generally happens at such spaced out intervals that you have enough time to top yourself off with personal CDs before the next hit happens.

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With as much healing that tanks (Warrior) are getting you just basically need everything to oneshot to make it feasible to die.
I personally suspected that this is exactly why everything oneshots in Eureka orthos, because i just don't see how else they could impose any sort of challenge on the players.
You can do more single target healing to yourself than healers can.

Unsurprisingly, the new encounters are apparently solo-able on WAR as well. Here's something aimed a bit closer to the standard DF experience. Expect 20 minute long 'clutch saves' as the norm on fights without enrages.

The problem isn't so much being able to solo an encounter, it's just that WAR's self-healing in general is overly forgiving and facilitates sloppy gameplay.

For some bosses the busters honestly just feel like an attempt to ensure non-tanks can't hold the boss forever because the auto-attack damage tends to be low enough that a healer can sustain through it with minimal effort.

...Though I've had multiple instances of being able to save DPS from busters with enough mit stacking so not even that's an absolute; particularly for DPS with personal shields like NIN and RPR.

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Originally Posted by Espon

It's a dungeon, they're designed to be easy. Practically any dungeon in the game can be cleared day 1 without a healer, especially with a warrior tanking, so why would you expect Dawntrail to suddenly be different? I'd love if dungeons were more difficult but I'm not going to get upset and set myself up for disappointment when I already know the expansion isn't doing anything new with them. Maybe 8.0, but expect the same type of gameplay seen in Endwalker in Dawntrail.

It's not like healers are going to be stuck without being able to dungeons because everyone wants a third DPS. Most people run dungeons through the duty finder with randoms and that forces the typical party composition. If your friends are going to exclude you from content because you play a healer, then they're probably not very good friends to begin with.

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it's not so much about difficulty, but about the fact that both DPS and Tanks are allowed to use their full kits even in dungeons, while healers only get to play the game in extremes, savages and ultimates

Take a lv50 dungeon for eksample. They are still supe easy, but since tank's don't have a million ways to heal, I find myself having more fun, because I actually need to heal the tank. and it's a sad state of affair when lv50 dungeons are the most engaging casual content for healers atm

You know that feeling when you're tired and want to stay up to finish the movie but you start getting those waves of drowsiness that almost knock you out, and eventually you wake up to the credits rolling and realise you did in fact fall asleep? Yeah. I get that in expert dungeons when I heal in the evening.

I have been healing since 2010 in WoW and FFXIV and would love to main the role but I just can't anymore. It's been unplayable for years. MSQ dungeons are boring, capstone dungeons are boring, leveling roulette is boring, alliance raids are boring, trials are boring and normal mode raids are boring. Everything in roulettes is BORING. Doing nothing for 15 minutes is not content. I even did a savage run to see if me being in crafted gear and never having healed savage before would be dangerous. Well it wasn't. I expected the cohealer to scream at me in panic but I don't think they even noticed.

It's just not fun to heal anymore and the lack of danger makes it less fun for other roles too. It's like hitting target dummies that don't fight back, over and over. I guess I'll spend another expansion getting my tomestones from hunts. They can at least kill me.

You don’t even need to stack mit

Critlo is enough by itself for DPS to survive most casual busters, about the only noticeable exception I can think of is darker note

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

once they add some "tight" heal checks that require a minimum of skill, 80% of all so called "casuals" will fail it and start complaining in the forums about the difficulty. See pharos sirius
thats why we cant have nice things and everything involving "casuals" is dirt easy

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While i want a harder game on the base level, yes...

Just remember Nidhog, Shinryu, Tsukoyomi... ive had friends almost quit on them as they literally could not clear em for weeks lol

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I actually don't think they were referring to the healer (well, at least from a healing perspective), beside that they'll have to carry out all these mechanics too.

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Mechanicstrail.
Encountertrail?
DDRtrail?

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

once they add some "tight" heal checks that require a minimum of skill, 80% of all so called "casuals" will fail it and start complaining in the forums about the difficulty. See pharos sirius
thats why we cant have nice things and everything involving "casuals" is dirt easy

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Unfortunately this makes all casual content "Youtube on second monitor" level of difficulty for the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

once they add some "tight" heal checks that require a minimum of skill, 80% of all so called "casuals" will fail it and start complaining in the forums about the difficulty. See pharos sirius
thats why we cant have nice things and everything involving "casuals" is dirt easy

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With the amount of healing and mitigation on tanks and DDs: Yes we can have that now.

When the healer can't handle it then the other roles should step up their game.

They should not be able to clear without any healer, but combined healing of tanks, DDs and a subpar healer? Why not.

At this point wtf are the point of content for man if it erects a entire class irrelevant

lol, most of the casual dps player wont do anything to help for stuff like this. many of them play dps because there is no responsibility. some even say it would be okay to only use a skill every 10 seconds becsuse little dmg is still dmg

i would love it though.

I personally think that dps-ing as a heal in dungeons is a very satisfying thing to do. Just spam aoes and out-dps some of your actual damage dealers
Also, the worse a group is, the more a heal is needed. If you take a tank and 2 dps, that only use half of their tool kits (which way too many people do), they will still need a heal :shrug:

out-dpsing a dps isnt satisfying. its sad

That's what wiping/fail state for.

Out DPSing a DPS would be somewhat exciting if my rotation wasn’t literally just overpowered AOW spam

It also honestly reflects more poorly on the DPS than it reflects well on me anyway

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

I personally think that dps-ing as a heal in dungeons is a very satisfying thing to do. Just spam aoes and out-dps some of your actual damage dealers
Also, the worse a group is, the more a heal is needed. If you take a tank and 2 dps, that only use half of their tool kits (which way too many people do), they will still need a heal :shrug:

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I wish DPSing in dungeons as a healer was more interesting that slapping the floor twelve times. Now we get to use an AoE once on the odd pulls, WAO Amazing

Also, the old "Healers are engaging when you play with bad player" that lasts for like 1 week at best after everybody has caught up to mechanic.

Youd think managing survival was the point of tanks and healers but apparently CBU3 not wanting these roles to be stressful means breaking that fundamental part of the trinity.

lol surprised pikachu face
they basically know either no-ko perfect play or baby mode in this game for years now why are people so surprised?

I still remember them boasting how Thaleia is the same difficulty as Orbonne on release - yeah if the boss pulls of 2 attacks by the time he hits 60% HP with day one runs already skipping mechs...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Unsurprisingly, the new encounters are apparently solo-able on WAR as well. Here's something aimed a bit closer to the standard DF experience. Expect 20 minute long 'clutch saves' as the norm on fights without enrages.

The problem isn't so much being able to solo an encounter, it's just that WAR's self-healing in general is overly forgiving and facilitates sloppy gameplay.

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I honestly don't understand how anyone can even rationalise the lobotomisation of the support role.
''No don't nerf Warrior just buff and make Dark knight for apes too''

Watched the video you could say he had a healer in the party with a RDM in the party that can raise and heal. I hope that's not the first dungeon because I sure don't like it just taking place on a boat.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Watched the video you could say he had a healer in the party with a RDM in the party that can raise and heal. I hope that's not the first dungeon because I sure don't like it just taking place on a boat.

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It's another "auto-scroller" dungeon opening akin to Anamnesis Aynder or Lapis Manalis.

And yeah, those bits are okay on a first play but being forced to wait for enemies to spawn one pack at a time isn't particularly thrilling on repeat runs, especially with trash mobs being as simplistic and undertuned as they are.

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by a war doing this. When almost every video going over war basically boiled down to what Woops's editor said. "Congratulations on still being the most unkillable job in the game." That and they're in gear that is above the dungeon's ilv. This would be more impressive if a person who doesn't know the job as well did it or as a job that has little to no self sustain.

I mean, in general dungeons can also cleared with no tank or no dps, so I don’t think this is specific to healers.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by a war doing this.

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People are not surprised, they are simply disappointed. Not that anyone really thought things would improve for the healer role.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...32/211/aa0.png

Would be funny if people stopped playing healers altogether just so people could cry about lack of healers in DT until SE adressed the elephant in the room.