Please focus on giving console players more hotbar space, instead of removing actions

I dont think that the issue is the amount of buttons in your rotation, it’s how each button works

WoW has classes with 5-10 core rotation buttons, and they feel much more fun than FF14’s 30 buttons rotation

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Originally Posted by Graveyardprincess

if anything pc is one limiting job abilitys

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

WoW has classes with 5-10 core rotation buttons, and they feel much more fun than FF14’s 30 buttons rotation

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https://media.tenor.com/sumnaJG9VooAAAAi/lol.gif

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I think the better solution would be for controllers to start having the extra bumpers that the Xbox Elite and PS5 Edge controllers have on the back. Holding R1+R2 or L1+L2 would really fatigue my small hands. I just tested how it would feel on a PS5 controller and the R1+R2 or L1+L2 combination adds a lot of stress to holding the controller. It's probably a non issue for bigger hands, but would be too much for mine.

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It’s a prank or do you guys are really aiming for a 50-60-70 buttons rotation ?

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

https://media.tenor.com/sumnaJG9VooAAAAi/lol.gif

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Funny that a giga casual who dont even have savage parses is toxic/elitist

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Don't underestimate the effect of good sound design. It really turns what might very well be something generic into something that feels good to use.

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...Wrong meaning of sound. "Sound design" is being used in the original post being quoted to mean "healthy and working", as in a "sound horse" or a "sound limb".

Anyway we don't need even more buttons available and I don't know why you'd want even more buttons. E: For transparency: I use m+kb, I'm still good on button count.

I have a strong feeling that OP doesn’t play using controller.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

It’s a prank or do you guys are really aiming for a 50-60-70 buttons rotation ?

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I'd cry into cosmos if I'll ever need to clear Savage with 50 buttons long rotations. Some jobs already have hellish APM as it is.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

It’s a prank or do you guys are really aiming for a 50-60-70 buttons rotation ?

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No I am fine with a 1 button rotation. But I wish I had more healing spells.

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

I have a strong feeling that OP doesn’t play using controller.

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PC players (I’m a PC player) using console players as a scapegoat for button related issues is getting really old in general

I used to play on console, the single job that is messy without prior help to better set up specific shortcuts is AST and AST is getting nuked in DT anyway. Anything else is either the PC player scapegoating or the console player who doesn’t understand how cross hotbars work

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Originally Posted by velswen

No. Make it 36+ that actually matter. More skills that are more interesting is better.

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That sounds awful actually

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Originally Posted by Rudje

...Wrong meaning of sound. "Sound design" is being used in the original post being quoted to mean "healthy and working", as in a "sound horse" or a "sound limb".

Anyway we don't need even more buttons available and I don't know why you'd want even more buttons. E: For transparency: I use m+kb, I'm still good on button count.

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I meant sound design as audible design in both posts. Not sound as adjective.

Like what do you prefer, your attack making some satisfying smacks, or the sound of slapping someone with wet noodles?

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Funny that a giga casual who dont even have savage parses is toxic/elitist

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You got me, I pulled my ultimate weapons out of my giga casual ass. :cool:

The irony of calling someone toxic and elitist while being so butthurt about them disagreeing with you that you're exactly that about their parses really started my morning with a laugh though. Thanks! :)

To those who say more buttons = more skill, please prove it. There are tons of VERY difficult games that rely on far fewer than 36 individual actions and have high skill ceilings and low skill floors.

i miss skills you use in situations other than your basic rotation or the 2min window.
crowd control comes to mind for exemple. everything is too rigid in this game.

yes i actually want more skills, skills you only use in certain situations, niche skills.




but lets no deceive ourselves high skill ceilings related to rotations wont happen anymore, no matter how many skills

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Originally Posted by Sjol

To those who say more buttons = more skill, please prove it. There are tons of VERY difficult games that rely on far fewer than 36 individual actions and have high skill ceilings and low skill floors.

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My favorite part of every FromSoft game from 2009 on is the hotbars with 64 abilities.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

You got me, I pulled my ultimate weapons out of my giga casual ass. :cool:

The irony of calling someone toxic and elitist while being so butthurt about them disagreeing with you that you're exactly that about their parses really started my morning with a laugh though. Thanks! :)

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Oh wow

Doing old ultimates in EW (probably being carried) and you cant even finish either p4s/p8s/p12s

you’re a casual despite what you think

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Originally Posted by Sjol

To those who say more buttons = more skill, please prove it. There are tons of VERY difficult games that rely on far fewer than 36 individual actions and have high skill ceilings and low skill floors.

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They can’t prove it

I bet those asking more buttons, dont even know how FF14 works

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Oh wow

Doing old ultimates in EW (probably being carried) and you cant even finish either p4s/p8s/p12s

you’re a casual despite what you think

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I couldn't even finish things I didn't even try to begin with. Wow, you got me. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by velswen

Every expansion we lose buttons or buttons are consolidated in the name of not having too many buttons. I don't think this is sustainable if FFXIV is to continue for years to come. Kaiten on Samurai is one example.

I think it would suck if every expansion for the next 10 years just added more follow-up attacks to already existing buttons, or removed old buttons to make space for the new. That isn't near as interesting as adding totally new, separate buttons.

Keyboard players have plenty of space for new buttons thanks to the ability to swap hotbars with any number of different button combinations or add "shift + button" or "ctrl + button," utilizing the numpad, etc. Even for people with small hands, it should be very easy to hit the first 4~5 numbers and many of the letters around WASD.

But I recognize it is different for controller players.

Rather than continue removing or replacing skills, could we please see more actual unique actions in the future, alongside work being done to give console players a better experience on classes with a many actions?

I don't know what this would look like, but as I said, the current strategy isn't sustainable. I've found myself dreading each new expansion's job changes more than being excited for them because I'm afraid of my favorite classes losing actions or systems that I love because of hotbar space.

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and how exactly are they meant to do that? i already use l2 + 8 keys for left bar, R2+ 8 keys for the right/ double tab l2/r2/

It's weird how there are so many controller-based action-RPG's that have engaging combat with 6 to 12 abilities.

Meanwhile, FF14's action-RPG combat struggles to engage players with 20-30+ abilities.

It's almost like the number of abilities you've got doesn't directly correlate to how engaged you are.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

It's weird how there are so many controller-based action-RPG's that have engaging combat with 6 to 12 abilities.

Meanwhile, FF14's action-RPG combat struggles to engage players with 20-30+ abilities.

It's almost like the number of abilities you've got doesn't directly correlate to how engaged you are.

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It's not like there's much that's dynamic. Most jobs don't have procs and are(or will be in Dawntrail) locked to the 30/60/120 second windows, and most fights don't have much variance, so once you know a job's opener/filler/reopener well enough you can just turn your brain off for that. Things like invulnerability or add phases throw a wrench in that, but they're predictable(and that level of optimization doesn't matter much outside of Savage/Ultimate) and delaying cooldowns to account for them will also become second nature because of how tightly scripted the fights tend to be.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Leaving us with: ~, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Q, E, R, T, F, G, Z, X, C, V, B (18)

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Everyone does not have pianist hands. I can't get to 6 if I still need my basic position is wasd(qwerty)/zqsd (azerty). There is a reason why basic left index position is F and you use your right hand to type 7 in 10 fingers typing (which is comparatively to the same distance as 6 with your index on D). With your right index on D instead of F the keys 6, T, G and B are too far to be easily used for a lot of people, especially when your index basic position is W/Z instead of S (that meakes even V hard to reach without losing your base hand position).

I would also add that only the numbers are useful for skills, since you can't really remap your keys every time you change job (or I just didn't search enough, in that case forget this part of the comment). You can't use most your list for ability. Basically, from those 18 button you pretend are usable, you can only use 6 for actual skills.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It's not like there's much that's dynamic....because of how tightly scripted the fights tend to be.

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Yup! And to be clear, I mean that for both your full comment that you wrote, and the playful edit I made out of it. ^^

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

It’s a prank or do you guys are really aiming for a 50-60-70 buttons rotation ?

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Oh I'm not, I was just saying if they ever wanted more buttons in rotations, controllers would have to be designed differently to make it happen. I personally don't want more buttons. I main NIN, I got enough buttons already haha.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Everyone does not have pianist hands. I can't get to 6 if I still need my basic position is wasd(qwerty)/zqsd (azerty). There is a reason why basic left index position is F and you use your right hand to type 7 in 10 fingers typing (which is comparatively to the same distance as 6 with your index on D). With your right index on D instead of F the keys 6, T, G and B are too far to be easily used for a lot of people, especially when your index basic position is W/Z instead of S (that meakes even V hard to reach without losing your base hand position).

I would also add that only the numbers are useful for skills, since you can't really remap your keys every time you change job (or I just didn't search enough, in that case forget this part of the comment). You can't use most your list for ability. Basically, from those 18 button you pretend are usable, you can only use 6 for actual skills.

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Oh, I hear you. I have to move my hand out of position to even hit the '6' key. My point is that's the extreme and it only really leaves us with 36 max for the extreme. So, people asking for more than that are basically forcing you into contortionism.

I would like to see it more like 24 or less. I think proc-based gameplay is a lot more engaging, personally. I'm firmly in the more keys does not equal more skill.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It's not like there's much that's dynamic. Most jobs don't have procs and are(or will be in Dawntrail) locked to the 30/60/120 second windows, and most fights don't have much variance, so once you know a job's opener/filler/reopener well enough you can just turn your brain off for that. Things like invulnerability or add phases throw a wrench in that, but they're predictable(and that level of optimization doesn't matter much outside of Savage/Ultimate) and delaying cooldowns to account for them will also become second nature because of how tightly scripted the fights tend to be.

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From my experience, the dev team loves to design fights were the most attentive required mechanics just so happen to appear in the bosses rotation right around the time players use their two-minute burst windows. I can't speak for savage/ultimate, but it is most certainly present at the EX level. It matters in the sense that your "braindead" rotation isn't so braindead anymore because juggling it along with attention heavy mechanics often separates the men from the boys. As for tight DPS windows, it is also my experience that most encounters end because players fail mechanics far more than boss enrages anyway.

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Originally Posted by avaule

I can't do the WXHB. All that double tapping hurts my fingers after only a single duty. I just use it to show the same hotbars that LT+RT and RT+LT use so I can always see my cooldowns. Cycling hotbars with RB is fine for non-combat stuff, but it's a nightmare in combat constantly being on the wrong hotbar. So I'm pretty much stuck at 32 buttons in combat.

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I spent 20 hours in trap parties in 5.3 ish and ever since then I can't do double tap wxhb either

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Originally Posted by Graveyardprincess

its not that hard we got 7 things you can instantly switch between without much movement of your hands lol its more diffuclt to use a keyboard with more than 12 abilitys than it is a controller with 100 abilitys

one button is required to switch between our hot bars then we can instantly use the ability you can switch bars faster than the global cool down counts down lol\


ps you have to be joking if u believe that its that hard, either that or you never played a fighting game on a console lol

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real gamers dont waste 25 hotbar slots on emotes , they use them for gaming lol

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It went away because it made the opener in endwalker a nightmare. Has nothing to do with job gauge and everything to do with the number of times it had to be pressed along with other ogcds in a short window.h

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if it's about APM you didn't fix that either though, as the presses were simply replaced with Shinten.

So it still fixed nothing. All it did was turn the kenki gauge into the Shinten gauge as there's nothing else you're going to have to use it on.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

if it's about APM you didn't fix that either though, as the presses were simply replaced with Shinten.

So it still fixed nothing. All it did was turn the kenki gauge into the Shinten gauge as there's nothing else you're going to have to use it on.

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Nono, its not about APM. Its specifically about the number of actions required in the burst phases. Specifically, 3 Kaitens were required in the opener, along with the other shintens and w/e, vs 2 in 5.x.



Missing one kaiten killed your opener, vs a shinten drifting slightly out was much less of an impact.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Nono, its not about APM. Its specifically about the number of actions required in the burst phases. Specifically, 3 Kaitens were required in the opener, along with the other shintens and w/e, vs 2 in 5.x.



Missing one kaiten killed your opener, vs a shinten drifting slightly out was much less of an impact.

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Missing a fire 4 kills BLM's opener too, but I don't think we're patching out fire 4 in response.

If a NIN does a mudra wrong that murders their opener too. I don't see them removing jutsu's from it (if anything there's a new one for aoe openers).

RPR forgot Soulsow? Rip that opener too, but that didn't seem to be removed or auto applied.

I'm not seeing where you point is, because "botching your opener" is something any job can manage by accident. If it's about the amount of presses NIN is covering it too very easily with all that jutsu work going on. You note 3 kaitens, when NIN has to do 4 mudra lines (The two basic charges, the 70 skill, and the kassatsu reset). But if we responded by deleting Mudras like this line of argument is for, NIN loses what makes it NIN.

I have a keyboard and mouse and I have not been able to find a way to reach all the keys I need to. I've been shopping for keyboards with more tightly packed keys (to no avail so far... recommendations welcome) because sometimes it hurts my hands big time.
I REALLY want there to be LESS skills. Why does my healer need a bunch of nearly identical instant group heals on different buttons? Why not one with multi charges so I don't have to have hand pain to play?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Missing a fire 4 kills BLM's opener too, but I don't think we're patching out fire 4 in response.

If a NIN does a mudra wrong that murders their opener too. I don't see them removing jutsu's from it (if anything there's a new one for aoe openers).

RPR forgot Soulsow? Rip that opener too, but that didn't seem to be removed or auto applied.

I'm not seeing where you point is, because "botching your opener" is something any job can manage by accident. If it's about the amount of presses NIN is covering it too very easily with all that jutsu work going on. You note 3 kaitens, when NIN has to do 4 mudra lines (The two basic charges, the 70 skill, and the kassatsu reset). But if we responded by deleting Mudras like this line of argument is for, NIN loses what makes it NIN.

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Yeah, and everything you mentioned is a gcd. Kaiten is not.

It was also only ever used to modify the iaijutsu. It was a pointless skill that had zero depth. Kenki guage wasn't ruined because of that, it was the drop of guren and senai from 50 to 25 that made Kenki brainless.

And it's not like I'm arguing this way because I got better at the job when it was simplified. My performance overall is actually worse. I was best when SAM was at its jankiest in 4.x, then 5.x, and my lowest performance is now, when it's "easy".

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yeah, and everything you mentioned is a gcd. Kaiten is not.

It was also only ever used to modify the iaijutsu. It was a pointless skill that had zero depth. Kenki guage wasn't ruined because of that, it was the drop of guren and senai from 50 to 25 that made Kenki brainless.

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Every OGCD exists to hide the slow GCD from you in the moment, so tbf they're all equally pointless. You could just bake any OGCD that does damage's potency into the rotation. But fine, my examples were all GCD's, but partially so because with DT a lot of the OGCD examples are also being cut (Like DRK summon being free so it's now the bloodspiller gauge, or gauge builders being made free so you can't accidentally overcap).

If I had to try and give OGCD's though some can be a bit awkward, specifically if that OGCD provides a buff you murder EVERYONE'S opener if you use it incorrectly, which is arguably worse (and much more common).

And either way, my examples despite being GCD still are relevent, specially NIN's since one of the brought up points is about APM happening at the start, while NIN suffers from the highest APM in the game even before SAM changes. It feels, to me at least, Kaiten was a specific target because Square realized having Shoha 1 available for only 2 levels was incredibly awkward and would likely confuse players leveling the job, vs removing an entire ability that was deemed irrelevant because you "only press it before Iaijutsu" despite, well, that actually being something unique about an OGCD for once, instead of just being a separate number for the sake of it.

Certainly for me shot down my dopamine when playing it, which caused the same result you note yourself, I started playing it worse, because it stopped being fun.

It's definitely valid to not want certain skills to go away, but (as a PS5 player) I'm more in favor of consolidation than expansion. It's strange that nobody's mentioned this (maybe I'm just dumb lol) but it's not just about room for job/role actions; what about inventory, mount, emotes (not individual emotes, mind you), limit break, teleport/return, sprint, etc? I really enjoy being able to assign buttons like these to my hotbars, but if I want to level my SCH to 100 I'm going to have to get rid of a fair amount of these buttons, reorganize a lot, and rely on navigating through "Actions & Traits" instead, which I feel that's a little unfair to controller players. I'm not saying we shouldn't expect to have to change our hotbars in new expansions. Again, I'm just more in favor of consolidation than expansion.

No. Certain classes already have insane unworkable button bloat (all attacks, so RPR / VPR.) We don't need more buttons, we need less buttons that waste space repeating the same idea or doing the exact same thing so that better buttons can be made.

I don't get this desire for massive amounts of skills
the most "fun to play" MMO's I've experienced have all been like 10-12 skill buttons at most.
This game is getting carried on the battle designs but I'd go as far as to say a lot of jobs are maybe up to twice as many skills as needed to be fun.

There's no need for more buttons

WoW have a 3rd of FF14 buttons and rotations are harder

Viper has less buttons than DRG, he's harder than DRG

I don't care one way or another about the number of buttons I have. I care if a button has a purpose within the toolkit that makes it worth a damn to use.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

There's no need for more buttons

WoW have a 3rd of FF14 buttons and rotations are harder

Viper has less buttons than DRG, he's harder than DRG

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Agreed. While there are classes/specs in WoW that have like, a billion buttons, that doesn't necessarily make them hard or fun, just busy. (and one of the worst offenders, Brewmaster monk, is getting a much needed reduction in button bloat) Arcane mage as far as I know is considered one of the hardest specs to play and it's not all that many buttons. Probably a similar button count to a lot of dps jobs in FF14. Havoc demon hunter is very few buttons, has a very simple rotation but playing it well can be challenging because all its difficulty is rolled up into how well you can position your character/use your movement tools to do optimal dps without dying. I mostly play fury warrior which is basically a 2-3 button rotation that's super easy but fun because it's an extremely high APM spec.